Kelli Martin's True Crime Past Inspired an Upcoming Novel

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Hey, everybody in Serial killer
country.

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My name is Brittany Ransom, and
this is When Killers Get Caught,

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a podcast devoted to deep dives
into the killers we love to

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learn about.
In season three, we're going to

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be talking one-on-one with
people who've experienced crime

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or been deeply affected by the
justice system in the United

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States.
But don't fret.

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You'll still get your deep dives
into who killers were, how they

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grew up, how they killed, and
how they got caught.

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But today we're talking to Kelly
Martin.

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She was reading her first book
about the cases in Granbury, TX

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that have followed her through
her childhood, her career in law

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enforcement over the last 28
years.

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Her book is set to come out in
the fall of 2023.

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It is going to be called
Homicide in the Hood as it

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contains cases from Hood County,
Texas.

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Thanks so much for coming to the
podcast, Kelly.

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Thank you for having me,
Brittany.

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Now, as I mentioned, you told me
that you have a pretty extensive

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career working in law
enforcement.

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Specifically, we talked before
about you worked as a probation

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officer for a long time.
Yes, that's correct.

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I started my career in 1995,
about two weeks after I

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graduated from college.
I had my first real job and I

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was very nervous, scared.
I had applied for a job in the

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newspaper.
Yes, this was before the

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Internet, so we had to look up
jobs in the newspaper and there

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was an ad in there for an adult
probation officer.

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I really didn't think I would
get hired, but I gave it a shot

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anyway.
My bachelor's degree is in

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psychology, so I wanted to try
it out because I was always

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interested in crime.
So I started out in actually

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Hood County in my hometown,
which was kind of strange.

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Seeing people coming to the
probation office that I had sold

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beer to at the grocery store
when I was a teenager.

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Yeah, DWI much.
So.

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Anyway, here I am 28 years
later.

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I, you know, I've changed jobs.
I've got a little bit of

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experience here in my hometown
and then went to a neighboring

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county where they had a tuition
reimbursement program.

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So I was working on my master's
degree too, as well as working

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full time.
And.

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Yeah.
And during my time as an adult

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probation officer, I supervised
all kinds of, you know,

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criminals or offenders per se,
people that you know, from

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misdemeanors all the way up to
very dangerous felons, you know,

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aggravated assault with a deadly
weapon, child sexual

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molestation, aggravated sexual
assault.

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And later on in my career when I
was working in Tarrant County,

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which is nearby.
In Fort Worth, TX, the Fort

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Worth, Dallas Metroplex area, I
supervised sex offenders, and

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that was pretty interesting.
I did that for a while, but all

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throughout my career in smaller
counties, I had sex offenders on

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my caseload.
We didn't have very many

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specialized caseloads back then,
but we also had to go do home

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visits.
You know, we'd have to drive out

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to these people's houses and
like.

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Right.
Somebody who's a convicted sex

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offender on probation and you're
going out to his house?

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Yeah.
Alone.

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Yes, and.
Oh my goodness.

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And you're not a cop before
this.

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Like some people who get into
being probation officers or

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former military retired police
officers.

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You're just fresh phrase 20
something blonde girl.

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Well, I wasn't blonde back then.
I'll just that little secret,

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yeah.
I'm sorry, I only knew what you

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look like on Instagram.
No, that's OK.

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Yeah.
When you get older, you try and

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kind of cover that up with
blonde, you know, if it starts

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turning Gray.
But that's another story.

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They send you off to do home.
I don't even know if we do that

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anymore.
Is that something we do in the

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twenty 20s?
Yes.

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We still do home visits.
Wow.

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Yes, we have to assess a
client's, you know, environment,

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especially if they're a child
sex offender.

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They there's certain
stipulations they cannot live

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near a child safety zone, which
could include a school or a

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daycare or this that a park, so
on.

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Through some of my work that I
don't often talk about online,

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but my real life job.
We've come across situations

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where people can't have
computers and that's the thing

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that somebody who went to my
church got put back in prison

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for because he was accessing
Facebook and that was one of the

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rules of his probation, that
while he was on probation he was

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not allowed to have social
media.

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That's correct.
So yeah, I get it.

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Sex offenders have quite a few
conditions of probation compared

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to.
The standard case, such as DWI

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or, you know, theft or something
of that nature.

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They have pages of restrictions
including polygraph

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examinations.
At least here in Texas now and

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other states, I can't speak to
that.

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I'm sure that in some situations
they do utilize A polygraph to

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monitor their ongoing behavior
while under supervision.

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In many cases they may be
allowed to have contact with

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minors, but only in the presence
of a chaperone.

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And I know here in Texas, the
probation department conducts,

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you know, investigation into the
person that's applying to be a

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chaperone.
And they have, they have, yes,

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they have to attend classes to
learn about the conditions of

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supervision, the and the and the
offender has to sit right there

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in front of his loved one who he
wants to be a chaperone and tell

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them exactly what he or she did.
Wow.

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So we're looking at the offense
report as we're conducting the

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chaperone vetting process, and
he has to sit right in front of

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them.
He cannot deny it or she cannot

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deny it because one of the
conditions we have here in Texas

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is you admit to your offense or
you go to jail because you're

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not going to waste 10 years on
probation denying that you

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committed the offense and deny
yourself the opportunity.

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To have sex offender treatment
and improve and learn to control

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these behaviors.
That's so interesting.

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It's one of the things that I
well, on one hand you want to

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know more about it, but on the
other hand you're like, maybe I

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don't want to know anything
about this process, but it's

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such a, I mean, one of the
things that I, since I currently

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work with children, it's child
sexual assault training is part

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of our job now.
And it's in my state.

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After what happened with Jerry
Sandusky.

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I don't know if you remember
that right?

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So I live in Pennsylvania.
After the situation with Jerry

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Sandusky happened, they
completely overhauled

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everything.
And now if you work with a child

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in any capacity at all, even
volunteering, you have to go

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through the same trainings I go
through.

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You have to have all the same
background checks, the national

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sex offender registry, the NSOR.
Which side note, we didn't have

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until 20/19, which wildly we
should have had a national

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registry much earlier than we do
now, but that's beside the

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point.
We have our national registry

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now and that's to check because
I'm sure as you know people hop

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states to try and get away from
this charge.

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And I mean with the, I think
right now the rate for child

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sexual assault is like one in
four, which is the lowest it's

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been since we started looking at
the numbers roughly 70 years

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ago.
So it's not great, but it's.

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Better 5% of children being
molested.

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Before 18, Yep.
Right.

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Yeah, that is true and accurate
statistic, Yeah.

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But you know, anyway, I, I went
and did a lot of other things

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too, you know?
I've taught at universities.

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I taught at Texas Christian
University for two years full

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time and then most of that time
is an adjunct professor and then

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the local Community College.
So I've always had one foot in

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academia and 1 foot in the
practitioner side which I think

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provides me a unique opportunity
and and set of you know

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knowledge and information and so
the last 10 to 13 years I've.

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Worked as a researcher for adult
probation departments and but

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before I was a court officer, I
mean, I've done everything you

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can do in probation.
I've written pre sentence

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investigation reports for the
judges conducted, you know.

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And you did some work in
creating guidelines and things,

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didn't you?
Or I think it was like.

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For policies.
Yes.

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Yes, that's that's part of my
current job as a research and

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policy planner.
But I think maybe you might be

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referring to back in 2005 or
2006 when a lot of the sex

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offender residency restrictions
were coming out and sort of you

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know, from some of the different
pieces of federal legislation

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that have been passed.
The Jacob Wetterling Act, the

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Megan's Law and things of that
nature really kind of got going.

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It took a while for for some
counties to catch on, but I have

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the city of Arlington, TX, where
we have the Texas Rangers

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baseball team and the Dallas
Cowboys.

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Don't Boo people, I know.
I'm saying nothing.

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As a resident Eagles fan, I'm
saying nothing.

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But I helped the City of
Arlington provide them some

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research to help them draft
their sex offender residency

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restriction ordinance.
City ordinance.

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So.
That's incredible.

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It was very I.
Mean you're a part of something

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that's going to go on much
further than you.

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I mean kind of like a book, but
I mean this has, I mean books

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are recreation, you know what I
mean?

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But like this is also like
something that's going to affect

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potentially people's safety.
For decades to come.

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I think that's amazing.
You know, I've never really

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thought about that, but yeah.
Because, I mean, those lists are

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things that the schools that I
work at keep an eye on, right

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where people are living, where
these people frequent, you know,

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so we know who gets released
just in case we see them walking

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through the area.
Right.

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And you know, I would like to
say just one thing about that I

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don't want people to
misunderstand.

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I think the media has kind of
given us some type of false

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perception about kids being
snatched in the park, you know,

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all the time.
And I'm not saying that doesn't

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happen, but.
You know, that was definitely

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how I was raised in the
nineties, 80% stranger danger,

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but.
Right.

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That's not true.
Right. 80% of 8 or higher of

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victims know their perpetrator
in some fashion, whether it's a

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family member, a neighbor and so
on.

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You know that, so.
It's actually one of the things

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that's the most terrifying about
it.

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Now we've got your work history
which shows that you are

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obviously very distinguished.
I mean you got multiple degrees,

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you've worked in this field.
You told me in our pre interview

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that your family also worked in
law enforcement.

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And So what brings you to the
place now it's 2023 where you're

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like I need to write a book.
Well, my daughter has moved out

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of the house and gone to
college.

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That's, and that's my only
child.

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So I'm like, what am I supposed
to do with my life now?

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I'm, you know, I'm working.
I'm still working full time.

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And I'm not retiring anytime
soon.

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I've always wanted to write a
book, you know, And this year is

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a 35th anniversary of the murder
of a young lady here in my

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hometown, Holly Palmer.
And it really affected a lot of

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people.
And you know, there there's been

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a lot of murders in this town
that affected me, especially

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growing up from like say 1980
forward, especially the 1988

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when Holly was murdered and
those.

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Let's talk a little.
Impact on me so you know I need.

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To know I just.
Want to write a book to honor

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the victims and their families?
So I guess let's talk about

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Holly Palmer then.
I, like you said this was

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something that affected you
pretty greatly when Holly died.

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How old would you have been?
I was a junior in high school.

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And she was.
So she was only a couple years

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older than you at 23, right?
Well, let's tell the listeners

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what actually happened to Holly.
OK, so on November 27th and the

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wee hours of the morning around
1:32 AM somewhere around there.

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Holly was working at the
Greyhound Trailways bus station.

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She had actually just purchased
that franchise, so she was very

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00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:18,960
excited and she was spending a
lot of her free time up at the

229
00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:20,840
bus station late at night
working.

230
00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:26,320
She also was planning on opening
a tshirt shop inside of the bus

231
00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:28,960
station.
And it's a small bus station.

232
00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:32,030
It's inside of a.
A house, it doesn't look like a

233
00:14:32,030 --> 00:14:35,190
normal bus station you would see
in a large city.

234
00:14:35,270 --> 00:14:39,390
You know, it's just it's in a
little wood frame house on the

235
00:14:39,390 --> 00:14:43,470
main Pearl Street that runs
through town and it's about two

236
00:14:43,470 --> 00:14:47,470
doors down from our drivein
movie theater.

237
00:14:47,590 --> 00:14:51,270
We have the oldest operating
drivein.

238
00:14:51,270 --> 00:14:54,990
It's been continually in
operation since 1952.

239
00:14:55,670 --> 00:14:58,850
That's awesome.
Little little factoid there,

240
00:14:58,850 --> 00:15:03,570
historical factoid.
But so she was up there working

241
00:15:04,450 --> 00:15:06,410
and this is, you know, close to
Thanksgiving.

242
00:15:06,890 --> 00:15:10,890
And her sister had talked to her
that day and said everybody's

243
00:15:10,890 --> 00:15:16,050
excited or maybe it was the day
after, but she no, it wasn't.

244
00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:19,760
I'm getting the timeline mixed
up just a tad.

245
00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:23,240
But her sister had talked to her
maybe earlier that morning

246
00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:24,840
before the murder happened.
Yes, that's right.

247
00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:27,040
And so she said, everybody's so
excited.

248
00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:28,560
We're waiting on you to get
here.

249
00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:32,400
We want to play Monopoly.
And Holly just kind of giggled,

250
00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:34,720
You know, they played board
games when they got together as

251
00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:38,560
a family.
And she told her sister that she

252
00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:40,040
had to go take care of
something.

253
00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:42,600
And her sister asked her, well,
are you breaking up with your

254
00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:44,400
boyfriend?
And she said, yeah, I need to

255
00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:50,210
take care of that.
He's, you know, there were some

256
00:15:50,210 --> 00:15:57,850
issues going on there.
And so she did that and later

257
00:15:57,850 --> 00:16:01,330
on, I mean her sister would
never see her at Thanksgiving.

258
00:16:02,410 --> 00:16:06,850
So at 13140, we, you know, the,
the police have been

259
00:16:06,850 --> 00:16:10,810
investigating this and checking
leads and they did back then

260
00:16:10,810 --> 00:16:14,050
they ran, chased down a lot of
leads, talked to witnesses.

261
00:16:14,050 --> 00:16:15,570
Over the years they've gotten
more.

262
00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:19,400
They've gotten witnesses to come
forward with just a little bit

263
00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:23,480
more information, but people
were afraid of, you know, the

264
00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:29,560
the primary suspect.
But he beat her in the head with

265
00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:37,080
a hammer so severely and then
that if that wasn't enough, drug

266
00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:41,360
her by her ankles to another
part of the bus station and

267
00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:43,640
bludgeoned her.
Continue to bludgeon her.

268
00:16:44,220 --> 00:16:46,380
With a huge concrete cinder
block.

269
00:16:47,420 --> 00:16:52,020
And I mean as you can imagine
there was blood spatter all over

270
00:16:52,020 --> 00:16:53,740
the walls.
It was everywhere.

271
00:16:53,740 --> 00:16:55,860
I mean, you know it was
horrible.

272
00:16:55,980 --> 00:17:00,260
And the police and this is 2
doors down from the Sheriff's

273
00:17:00,260 --> 00:17:03,180
Department.
Gosh, right next door.

274
00:17:03,500 --> 00:17:04,650
Ozzy.
Yeah.

275
00:17:04,650 --> 00:17:08,490
So you know, when people were
scared to death, if this, if

276
00:17:08,490 --> 00:17:10,930
this can happen right next door
to the Sheriff's Department,

277
00:17:11,530 --> 00:17:13,450
nobody's safe.
I mean, my gosh, right.

278
00:17:14,089 --> 00:17:17,490
Of course this was back before
there were video surveillance

279
00:17:17,490 --> 00:17:20,690
and cameras everywhere and and
you know, that sort of thing and

280
00:17:20,690 --> 00:17:22,690
you know, the guy just snuck in
there.

281
00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:26,200
In the middle of the night cuz
he knew she would, she was

282
00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:28,440
actually going to live there.
She was making some living

283
00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:30,520
quarters for herself and oh.
Okay.

284
00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:32,640
I was thinking about that.
I was like, was this a robbery

285
00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:36,400
gone wrong or this was
specifically somebody went after

286
00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:38,880
her.
Yeah, this was personal.

287
00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:44,520
I mean, there, there might have
been 50 bucks missing, but you

288
00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:46,600
know, there were other things in
there that weren't disturbed.

289
00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:50,280
They weren't taken.
And so this, this was this.

290
00:17:50,690 --> 00:17:53,810
Had to be somebody that knew
Hollywood, be in there that

291
00:17:53,810 --> 00:17:58,170
late, you know?
I knew where she was and now

292
00:17:58,170 --> 00:18:00,770
here's the thing, they did
interviews and things and like

293
00:18:00,770 --> 00:18:03,810
you said, people were afraid of
the person who we're not

294
00:18:03,810 --> 00:18:06,250
mentioning because it's alleged
so.

295
00:18:06,610 --> 00:18:10,970
Right, but the police?
Do they think he knew?

296
00:18:10,970 --> 00:18:14,810
Her.
Yeah, they know you.

297
00:18:15,770 --> 00:18:20,000
How?
Just based on the job or did he

298
00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:25,400
have some other connection?
Well, they interviewed witnesses

299
00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:30,400
and statements and confirm some
things, some of their theories

300
00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:36,400
and suspicions.
But you know, like I said this,

301
00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:40,560
there were reports that this was
the most brutal thing that the

302
00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:43,280
police had ever seen in our
little Granberry, Texas.

303
00:18:44,030 --> 00:18:47,230
That that one of the police
officers just vomited outside.

304
00:18:47,390 --> 00:18:53,070
You know it it was terrible.
And they made one of the rookie

305
00:18:53,070 --> 00:18:57,590
cops spend the night in the bus
station just in case the killer

306
00:18:57,590 --> 00:19:00,950
returned to the crime scene.
Because that happens sometimes.

307
00:19:01,070 --> 00:19:04,230
It sure does.
So what an eerie thing for this

308
00:19:04,230 --> 00:19:05,830
guy.
Right.

309
00:19:05,830 --> 00:19:08,430
Yeah, that's got to be a creepy
aspect of your job.

310
00:19:08,670 --> 00:19:10,230
Right.
So.

311
00:19:10,230 --> 00:19:12,190
Staying at a crime scene
overnight.

312
00:19:12,430 --> 00:19:15,190
And that, you know, he was a
rookie that stayed with him

313
00:19:15,270 --> 00:19:17,750
forever and he's 62 years old
now.

314
00:19:18,910 --> 00:19:21,590
And you interviewed you.
You've been interviewing

315
00:19:21,590 --> 00:19:23,670
everybody.
I've been talking to lots of

316
00:19:23,670 --> 00:19:26,630
people around town.
If they'll talk to me, they get

317
00:19:26,630 --> 00:19:29,830
all, you know, paranoid.
But I'm like, it's Kelly Okay.

318
00:19:29,830 --> 00:19:31,430
You've known me my my whole
life.

319
00:19:31,430 --> 00:19:32,990
You knew my dad.
You knew my Mama.

320
00:19:33,350 --> 00:19:35,830
You went to church with some of
my family members, you know?

321
00:19:37,860 --> 00:19:41,420
So I'm just trying and I, you
know, I think the hesitation is

322
00:19:41,420 --> 00:19:45,460
with the being, I guess labeled
as a journalist, but I'm like

323
00:19:45,460 --> 00:19:46,980
it's just Kelly Okay we're
talking.

324
00:19:46,980 --> 00:19:50,300
I'm not going to put anything in
the book that you do not want in

325
00:19:50,300 --> 00:19:54,100
there, but I'm just trying to
get a a clearer picture of

326
00:19:54,100 --> 00:19:56,700
what's going on.
But the interesting thing is

327
00:19:56,700 --> 00:20:02,780
I've been contacted by the
granddaughter of one of another

328
00:20:02,780 --> 00:20:06,470
victim in the book.
She found out through Facebook

329
00:20:06,470 --> 00:20:09,710
that I was writing this book,
and she sent me a message and

330
00:20:09,710 --> 00:20:13,030
asked if her grandmother would
be covered.

331
00:20:13,030 --> 00:20:17,470
She said, I'm her granddaughter
and I was just taken aback, you

332
00:20:17,470 --> 00:20:20,790
know, And she was, she seemed
happy that her grandmother's

333
00:20:20,790 --> 00:20:23,470
story would be in there.
So that was great.

334
00:20:23,470 --> 00:20:26,510
And I've since talked to her.
She sent me some photos of her

335
00:20:26,510 --> 00:20:30,430
grandmother and she's given me
some stories, you know, about.

336
00:20:31,450 --> 00:20:34,530
She was 12 years old when she
found out her grandmother had

337
00:20:34,530 --> 00:20:38,330
been murdered and her parents
were out on a little trip out of

338
00:20:38,330 --> 00:20:42,250
town for their anniversary and.
What a horrible thing to come

339
00:20:42,250 --> 00:20:44,010
back to.
No, right.

340
00:20:44,010 --> 00:20:46,450
It was awful.
I cannot imagine what they were

341
00:20:46,450 --> 00:20:50,250
going through.
But yeah, it's it's been very

342
00:20:50,250 --> 00:20:52,210
interesting.
I've also been able to hang out

343
00:20:52,210 --> 00:20:55,970
with the cold case squad in a
neighboring jurisdiction.

344
00:20:56,890 --> 00:20:59,450
That was interesting.
I got to ask questions and.

345
00:20:59,980 --> 00:21:02,580
There were a couple of retired
former Texas Ranger law

346
00:21:02,580 --> 00:21:08,060
enforcement agents, a retired
game warden, two retired IRS

347
00:21:08,460 --> 00:21:11,460
investigators.
So you know, they bring

348
00:21:11,460 --> 00:21:13,580
different perspectives.
But there were, there was

349
00:21:13,580 --> 00:21:18,140
literally over 300, three, 150
years worth of law enforcement

350
00:21:18,140 --> 00:21:20,500
experience in that room.
So they.

351
00:21:20,540 --> 00:21:23,220
Were so that's interesting.
I didn't think about that

352
00:21:23,220 --> 00:21:26,300
before.
So the Colt case unit is

353
00:21:26,300 --> 00:21:29,180
comprised of a lot of people who
are retired.

354
00:21:29,950 --> 00:21:33,790
In our area, because a lot of
smaller counties do not have the

355
00:21:33,790 --> 00:21:37,590
funding and and we just don't
have, you know, this isn't

356
00:21:37,590 --> 00:21:43,390
Dallas, Houston, New York City.
You know, we we don't really

357
00:21:43,390 --> 00:21:47,590
have the need for a fulltime
cold case squad 24/7, you know?

358
00:21:47,910 --> 00:21:49,910
Right.
And plus, we don't have the

359
00:21:49,910 --> 00:21:52,030
funding.
You know, the officers are

360
00:21:52,030 --> 00:21:57,670
working active cases, so.
You know, we've gotten retired

361
00:21:57,670 --> 00:22:02,470
guys that have years and years
of experience and they, you

362
00:22:02,470 --> 00:22:06,390
know, work with younger, younger
guys, younger law enforcement

363
00:22:06,390 --> 00:22:09,870
officers to have a fresh set of
eyes to look at things too.

364
00:22:09,870 --> 00:22:12,950
And and maybe some of them are
up on technology a little bit

365
00:22:12,950 --> 00:22:16,470
more as well.
But yeah, it's very interesting

366
00:22:16,470 --> 00:22:18,390
that they're just still
continuing.

367
00:22:18,390 --> 00:22:20,600
They can't let it go.
I was just about.

368
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:24,160
I was thinking that too. 75 or
whatever, and they're still

369
00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:25,160
working.
They want.

370
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:26,760
I mean, they just, they won't
let it go.

371
00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,280
They have to keep doing it.
For the I've come across that

372
00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:34,720
and a lot of my research too
that people it it's not just you

373
00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:38,680
a lot of people who they get
close to these cases actually

374
00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:42,760
right before we were talking we
were talking about I've of

375
00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:47,080
course I forget her name but the
woman who was a part of the.

376
00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:52,560
Team that helped with the Golden
State killer cases.

377
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:55,640
I was a part of that documentary
recently.

378
00:22:55,760 --> 00:23:01,480
And her, I mean, she was
following that case for decades.

379
00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:07,320
She never let that go.
So I after talking to dozens of

380
00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:10,800
victims and collecting all that
evidence, that's got to eat at

381
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:14,640
you somehow.
Yeah, it really does it.

382
00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:17,600
It's.
Because if we don't think about

383
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:21,360
this, but officers and law
enforcement and you know, first

384
00:23:21,360 --> 00:23:25,760
responders and people of that
nature, they suffer PTSD.

385
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:29,600
They suffer from, you know,
secondary trauma from dealing

386
00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:32,800
with these types of even if
they'll, you know, even though

387
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:36,520
they may not admit it or
recognize it initially, I think

388
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:40,600
more so nowadays we understand
about post traumatic stress.

389
00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:44,280
You know but.
We definitely didn't 30-40 years

390
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:46,000
ago.
We weren't even as well versus

391
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:47,920
we are now.
Right.

392
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:50,840
So, you know, yeah, it affects
them.

393
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:53,440
They carry it with them.
They, they wake up talking about

394
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:56,720
it, thinking about it, going to
sleep, thinking about it, you

395
00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:00,120
know, And they have to keep that
separated from their family.

396
00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:04,040
You can't go home and tell your
wife every horrible thing that

397
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:08,000
you saw all day out at work or
have your children over here,

398
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:09,680
that kind of stuff.
But.

399
00:24:09,970 --> 00:24:13,170
Yeah, I mean, like some of the
officers that I've talked to, I

400
00:24:13,170 --> 00:24:14,450
asked them about a case.
Yep.

401
00:24:14,530 --> 00:24:17,530
Remember that one?
They just, wow.

402
00:24:17,730 --> 00:24:21,650
It's etched in their mind.
So we definitely have Dolly's

403
00:24:21,650 --> 00:24:24,650
case and how many total cases?
Palmer.

404
00:24:25,470 --> 00:24:27,230
Yeah, Holly.
Wanna call her Dolly?

405
00:24:27,790 --> 00:24:31,110
Holly is her sister.
Holly is the victim, right.

406
00:24:31,950 --> 00:24:34,590
So we have Holly's case, but how
many total cases are you

407
00:24:34,670 --> 00:24:38,750
researching for the book?
Well, I'm researching really six

408
00:24:38,750 --> 00:24:41,070
cases.
There's a chapter for each of

409
00:24:41,070 --> 00:24:45,830
these six cases, and they're not
through my research.

410
00:24:46,710 --> 00:24:49,390
At first I was thinking, OK,
these are all unsolved cases.

411
00:24:50,130 --> 00:24:53,370
But then I'll lo and behold, not
too long ago, and I thought I

412
00:24:53,370 --> 00:24:55,250
was done writing a particular
chapter.

413
00:24:55,250 --> 00:24:59,250
I kept digging and digging and
well, it's been solved.

414
00:24:59,650 --> 00:25:07,170
It was solved in 2010, a 1987
case, all these years later, and

415
00:25:07,170 --> 00:25:13,130
they never, ever would have
known about it unless they got,

416
00:25:13,130 --> 00:25:16,530
I mean, the guy confessed.
He just, he got caught for doing

417
00:25:16,530 --> 00:25:19,000
something else.
And was in jail.

418
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:23,960
And thought he could leverage.
He he Well, that didn't work.

419
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,760
He got two life sentences.
They sometimes think because

420
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,120
it's happened in the past, but I
think you just have to have an

421
00:25:30,120 --> 00:25:34,280
incredible lawyer because
people, sometimes, I mean Bundy,

422
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:36,000
tried.
I didn't have a lawyer.

423
00:25:36,120 --> 00:25:38,480
He just, he just told the
people.

424
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:42,600
He just told the Texas Ranger
that he murdered somebody.

425
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:44,960
And you know what?
He said people are like why did

426
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:46,640
this guy confess?
He never would have gotten

427
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,900
caught for this murder.
It's because of the rapport that

428
00:25:49,900 --> 00:25:53,300
the officer built with him the
way and I talked to that

429
00:25:53,300 --> 00:25:56,780
officer, I talked to that Texas
Ranger and he said I just treat

430
00:25:56,780 --> 00:25:58,700
people the way I would want to
be treated.

431
00:25:58,700 --> 00:26:02,300
I was raised a certain way.
You treat people with empathy,

432
00:26:02,300 --> 00:26:06,140
with kindness, even though it's
a killer, you have to try and

433
00:26:06,140 --> 00:26:08,820
show this.
And he was talking to him, you

434
00:26:08,820 --> 00:26:11,140
know, about spirituality and so
forth.

435
00:26:11,220 --> 00:26:14,060
And the guy just felt guilty.
He couldn't he.

436
00:26:14,060 --> 00:26:16,940
Had a guilty conscience.
Yes, he did.

437
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:22,640
But he had tried to kidnap a
lady in the Walmart parking lot

438
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:24,760
here in Granbury.
Jesus.

439
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,800
Yeah, and she.
But see, he had already sexually

440
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:30,720
assaulted.
He had, he had been out of

441
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:35,840
prison three months and three
months later the guy's already

442
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:37,560
trying to kidnap somebody and
rape him.

443
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,720
He was in prison for he got a 20
year sentence for rape.

444
00:26:41,540 --> 00:26:43,860
So he three months when he got
out of prison, he tried to

445
00:26:43,860 --> 00:26:46,260
kidnap somebody else.
So he was out on bail for

446
00:26:46,260 --> 00:26:50,900
kidnapping in our county.
Then he skipped bail and while

447
00:26:51,020 --> 00:26:55,340
he was not under the, you know,
watchful eyes of the authority,

448
00:26:55,340 --> 00:27:00,060
he murdered somebody in another
county up by the Texas, Arkansas

449
00:27:00,060 --> 00:27:04,700
border then.
I wish I could say that's not

450
00:27:04,700 --> 00:27:07,940
common, but I've come across a
bunch of cases.

451
00:27:08,310 --> 00:27:14,670
Where somebody's out on parole
or waiting for a trial and boom,

452
00:27:14,670 --> 00:27:16,910
they get they do something else
even worse.

453
00:27:17,590 --> 00:27:22,310
Yeah, yeah.
So yeah, so he we didn't even

454
00:27:22,310 --> 00:27:24,750
know that he had murdered the
lady in the other county.

455
00:27:24,750 --> 00:27:27,110
We just got in for bail jumping,
right?

456
00:27:27,510 --> 00:27:31,790
So they go in to talk to him.
He confesses to two murders, the

457
00:27:31,790 --> 00:27:35,510
coach case murder in in Hood
County from 1987.

458
00:27:36,110 --> 00:27:39,070
And then the murder that he had
just committed in Cass County,

459
00:27:39,070 --> 00:27:43,030
Texas, which is close to the
Texas, Arkansas border, yeah.

460
00:27:44,510 --> 00:27:48,270
Now I want your, I guess,
opinion on this because right

461
00:27:48,270 --> 00:27:55,150
now I'm actually researching
Otis tool and the the

462
00:27:55,910 --> 00:28:02,390
ridiculousness that went on with
that case with the of course

463
00:28:02,390 --> 00:28:06,760
they admitted to hundreds.
Of murders which we later on

464
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:10,920
learned they couldn't have
possibly committed all of those.

465
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:16,040
But you know, with Henry Lee
Lucas and Otis Tool, I mean, how

466
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:18,400
do you feel about that when you
have someone who shows up and

467
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,840
just says, hey, I did this?
I mean, are we believing these

468
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:23,680
people?
What's the process of trying to

469
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:30,000
figure out if they're just
attention grabbing, feel genuine

470
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:33,240
remorse or trying to get
attention?

471
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:38,160
Like how do how do we avoid
Henry Lee Lucas a notice now.

472
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:44,400
Well, this guy gave details that
only the killer would know.

473
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:46,680
Gotcha.
The killer would know.

474
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:49,320
Yeah.
He he took this lady.

475
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,680
He kidnapped her from a
convenience store gas station,

476
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:57,400
took her to and robbed the.
You know, he only got $57.

477
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,320
But this was in 1987, and he
took her.

478
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:09,280
To a abandoned mobile home in
the subdivision here raped her

479
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,720
and then took her to the boat
ramp and drowned her.

480
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:17,720
Wow.
Yeah, and you don't see a lot

481
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:22,160
of, you don't see as many, you
know, homicides by drowning.

482
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,560
I was just thinking that I was
like, usually people want to,

483
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:28,440
they want to feel it.
He did.

484
00:29:29,610 --> 00:29:31,850
They want to.
Hit under the water, yeah.

485
00:29:32,090 --> 00:29:35,290
As horrible as that is to say
they they want to feel the life

486
00:29:35,290 --> 00:29:39,130
drain out of the person.
Is this like a drowning by

487
00:29:39,130 --> 00:29:41,130
homicide?
More of like a just getting rid

488
00:29:41,170 --> 00:29:46,610
of her because you can't let the
victim live after you did all

489
00:29:46,610 --> 00:29:49,450
that?
Right, that's exactly what it

490
00:29:49,450 --> 00:29:51,650
was.
He he stuck her head under the

491
00:29:51,650 --> 00:29:55,410
water and held her down there
until she was deceased and.

492
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:58,920
It just so happens there was a
fishing tournament that morning

493
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:02,320
on our lake and he had just left
her there floating in the water.

494
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:07,560
And a fisherman who came who had
launched his boat from that boat

495
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,440
ramp about 5:00 AM, five twenty
that morning.

496
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:14,760
He didn't see anything then but
when he gets back around 7,

497
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:19,480
she's there.
So yeah, he called authorities

498
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:23,760
and of course they they came and
and investigated, but.

499
00:30:24,810 --> 00:30:27,090
It went cold.
I mean, they they had several

500
00:30:27,090 --> 00:30:30,570
suspects in the beginning and
they polygraphed quite a few

501
00:30:30,570 --> 00:30:32,330
people.
They, you know, interviewed

502
00:30:32,330 --> 00:30:36,730
people from different counties.
They had one at one point, the

503
00:30:36,850 --> 00:30:41,090
sheriff, who at that time was my
cousin, Edwin Tomlinson.

504
00:30:41,170 --> 00:30:47,050
He was elected in 1980.
He thought maybe this person, a

505
00:30:47,130 --> 00:30:50,170
mental patient that had just
been recently released from

506
00:30:50,530 --> 00:30:53,050
psychiatric facility in a
neighboring county.

507
00:30:53,430 --> 00:30:56,550
Had been in the store that
morning and so they chased that

508
00:30:56,550 --> 00:30:59,510
lead down, but you know,
everything just kind of went

509
00:30:59,510 --> 00:31:02,790
cold because they didn't have
the right person and they never

510
00:31:02,790 --> 00:31:05,470
would have caught this guy
unless he had just spontaneously

511
00:31:05,470 --> 00:31:09,510
confessed.
So you said before that all of

512
00:31:09,510 --> 00:31:11,670
these cases really meant
something to you?

513
00:31:13,110 --> 00:31:16,830
Yes, I they they really had a
tremendous impact on me and in

514
00:31:16,830 --> 00:31:20,950
1980 I was in 4th grade, so I
was probably about 9 or 10 years

515
00:31:20,950 --> 00:31:23,730
old.
And that was the first time I

516
00:31:23,730 --> 00:31:28,810
really learned what murder was.
It.

517
00:31:29,570 --> 00:31:32,770
Granbury was such a small town
back then we only had 2500

518
00:31:32,770 --> 00:31:38,930
people within the city limits
and six, maybe 6000 people in

519
00:31:38,930 --> 00:31:42,490
the entire county, which is 437
square miles.

520
00:31:43,010 --> 00:31:46,170
So everybody knew everyone, you
know.

521
00:31:46,170 --> 00:31:49,610
And when something like this
happened, it was very traumatic

522
00:31:49,610 --> 00:31:53,120
and scary.
So my mom started locking our

523
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:57,280
doors and you know, was just
scared to death of something

524
00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:02,160
happening to us.
And there were, and then a

525
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:05,960
murder occurred 3 weeks later.
Oh, wow.

526
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:10,560
A young 21 year old girl was
stabbed and she had only worked

527
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:13,960
at this laundromat for three
days and was stabbed and I don't

528
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:18,200
want to give away too much of it
because the book has some that

529
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:22,790
chapter.
In the chapter before there is a

530
00:32:22,830 --> 00:32:27,950
link to serial some serial
killers, so we'll leave that as

531
00:32:27,990 --> 00:32:31,470
a kind of a.
Teaser for the future for people

532
00:32:31,470 --> 00:32:35,950
who wanna buy it to learn about
what serial killer is linked to

533
00:32:35,950 --> 00:32:38,550
Granberry.
All right, granberry.

534
00:32:38,550 --> 00:32:42,510
Nobody knows where that is.
To be fair, you're right.

535
00:32:42,510 --> 00:32:46,550
I couldn't point it out, but I
think most people couldn't point

536
00:32:46,550 --> 00:32:49,130
out small towns in any state.
Right.

537
00:32:49,130 --> 00:32:52,370
There's small towns all over the
country and I'm sure most of

538
00:32:52,370 --> 00:32:56,330
your listeners have had some
kind of experience with that or

539
00:32:56,330 --> 00:32:59,690
known somebody or you know,
heard of in a neighboring small

540
00:32:59,690 --> 00:33:02,690
town.
It it affects everyone all over,

541
00:33:02,970 --> 00:33:08,210
all over.
Well, it's so weird because I'm

542
00:33:08,210 --> 00:33:10,210
not sure about this because
you're a bit older, you're a

543
00:33:10,210 --> 00:33:13,410
little older than I am, but I
feel like throughout all of my

544
00:33:13,410 --> 00:33:18,730
childhood.
Just nonstop crime, crime, bad

545
00:33:18,730 --> 00:33:21,810
things happening in the new like
every day, just inundated with

546
00:33:21,810 --> 00:33:23,650
it.
So it becomes like part of the

547
00:33:23,650 --> 00:33:28,090
background noise.
Especially because I grew up in

548
00:33:28,090 --> 00:33:30,530
a town like 30 minutes outside
of Philadelphia.

549
00:33:30,930 --> 00:33:35,610
And if you don't know this for a
brief bit, during the 80s they

550
00:33:35,610 --> 00:33:40,410
called Philadelphia
Philadelphia, so things were a

551
00:33:40,410 --> 00:33:45,410
little.
In 10th, in the city back then.

552
00:33:45,810 --> 00:33:51,050
So I don't, I don't know if it
affected me like it would have

553
00:33:51,050 --> 00:33:54,890
affected you because these are
people you saw, I mean.

554
00:33:55,570 --> 00:33:58,530
I went into that gas station
where a lady was kidnapped and

555
00:33:58,530 --> 00:34:02,010
drowned.
I, my dentist's office and my

556
00:34:02,010 --> 00:34:05,490
daycare was on the same St. as
this laundromat where this girl

557
00:34:05,490 --> 00:34:08,610
was stabbed.
You know there was a lady that

558
00:34:08,610 --> 00:34:15,130
was stabbed 110 times in her and
my best friend growing up.

559
00:34:15,130 --> 00:34:17,449
Her house was right around the
corner in that same neighborhood

560
00:34:18,929 --> 00:34:21,969
and in the bus station 2 doors
down from the Sheriff's

561
00:34:21,969 --> 00:34:23,370
Department.
But guess what?

562
00:34:23,850 --> 00:34:27,050
2 doors on the opposite side was
my grandmother's house.

563
00:34:28,330 --> 00:34:31,409
And you had family who worked in
that very same?

564
00:34:31,850 --> 00:34:34,850
Yeah, my cousin was the sheriff
when this happened.

565
00:34:35,230 --> 00:34:37,790
Now this happened actually
inside the city limits, so it

566
00:34:37,790 --> 00:34:40,350
was the under the jurisdiction
of the Police Department.

567
00:34:40,630 --> 00:34:43,949
But in little Granbury, every
cop in the county, it didn't

568
00:34:43,949 --> 00:34:46,790
matter if they were Sheriff's
Department or city cops, They

569
00:34:46,790 --> 00:34:48,630
showed up at Holly's crime
scene.

570
00:34:49,230 --> 00:34:53,510
It was it was horrible.
And get this, Holly's stepsister

571
00:34:53,510 --> 00:34:57,150
was a police dispatcher and
she's the one that had to

572
00:34:57,150 --> 00:35:00,870
dispatch the call.
Oh, that's awful, because she

573
00:35:00,870 --> 00:35:04,310
had to have known who it was
when they listed the location.

574
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:06,960
Yes, exactly.
Because nobody else would be

575
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:08,320
there at 1:00 o'clock in the
morning.

576
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:13,840
Yeah, So Holly's step sister's
husband was actually a sheriff's

577
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:16,480
deputy at the time, so he
actually came to the scene as

578
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:18,240
well, so.
Yeah.

579
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:23,560
So now, because we're talking
about these are cases from 20-30

580
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:27,040
years ago, right?
What's it like interviewing the

581
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:31,040
people who lost family members
and things now?

582
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:36,650
It's very.
Gosh, I'm trying to think of the

583
00:35:36,650 --> 00:35:39,930
right word.
Well, I personally know, you

584
00:35:39,930 --> 00:35:44,610
know, Dolly's Dolly Palmer,
which is Holly's one of Holly's

585
00:35:44,610 --> 00:35:47,810
sisters.
And another sister was just a

586
00:35:47,810 --> 00:35:50,770
grader 2 above me in school.
So I knew of her.

587
00:35:52,370 --> 00:35:57,050
But I was kind of wary about,
you know, would the family

588
00:35:57,050 --> 00:36:00,450
members be upset?
You know, maybe they didn't want

589
00:36:00,450 --> 00:36:03,410
to have the.
Scab ripped off, you know of

590
00:36:03,410 --> 00:36:08,290
this wound so to speak.
But Holly's sister there and her

591
00:36:08,290 --> 00:36:11,930
family are very appreciative
because Holly's case is still

592
00:36:11,930 --> 00:36:16,130
unsolved and or not prosecuted
when there's been somebody that

593
00:36:16,130 --> 00:36:18,730
the police has suspected all
along but you know you never

594
00:36:18,730 --> 00:36:22,090
know.
You never know how family

595
00:36:22,090 --> 00:36:27,930
members are going to react.
So, so far it's been I'm trying

596
00:36:27,930 --> 00:36:33,030
to be very careful about.
And how I asked questions, you

597
00:36:33,030 --> 00:36:35,590
know, especially if one of the
like the lady that reached out

598
00:36:35,590 --> 00:36:38,790
to me via Facebook Messenger, I
don't know her that well.

599
00:36:38,790 --> 00:36:43,270
So she was very appreciative
that her grandmother's story

600
00:36:43,270 --> 00:36:45,310
would be included in the book,
you know.

601
00:36:46,030 --> 00:36:49,870
And so I think people realize
that I'm doing this because I

602
00:36:49,870 --> 00:36:51,590
don't want these women to be
forgotten.

603
00:36:52,190 --> 00:36:54,990
No.
And I want to honor the victims

604
00:36:55,030 --> 00:36:58,390
and their families and I want to
educate people about what

605
00:36:58,390 --> 00:37:02,320
families go through.
Really hear from them.

606
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:08,280
So in one of my chapters, I have
had these family members write

607
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:12,480
up a little story about when
they first got the call, how

608
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,520
they reacted, what they were
thinking, what they were

609
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:17,760
feeling.
And because I've been friends

610
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:24,000
with Dolly for about four years
now, we've had long, deep

611
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:27,440
conversations about it and it,
you know.

612
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:35,200
Try not to cry here.
She is a true inspiration to me

613
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:38,720
because she is like a bulldog, a
pit bull.

614
00:37:38,720 --> 00:37:40,800
She's going to dig in and not
let go.

615
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:44,960
She will not stop fighting for
her sister to get justice for

616
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:48,320
Holly, no matter how painful it
is.

617
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:50,720
She has pushed through the
tears.

618
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:54,240
She has pushed through the
anxiety that, you know, this is

619
00:37:54,240 --> 00:37:57,360
causing me, you know?
But she said to keep doing it.

620
00:37:57,360 --> 00:37:58,680
We're going to keep going.
I'm.

621
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:00,290
I'm.
I'm faithful.

622
00:38:00,370 --> 00:38:02,890
I'm hopeful that God is in
control here, that this is

623
00:38:02,890 --> 00:38:04,530
really when something is going
to happen.

624
00:38:04,530 --> 00:38:08,090
With my sister's case, she has
pushed through all of that pain

625
00:38:08,730 --> 00:38:12,570
to do this for her sister to
speak to me almost daily about

626
00:38:12,570 --> 00:38:15,530
the book and the people I'm
talking to and the progress

627
00:38:15,530 --> 00:38:18,850
we're trying to make and
reinvigorating interest in our

628
00:38:18,850 --> 00:38:22,090
community about these cases that
have not been solved.

629
00:38:22,410 --> 00:38:24,010
It's so tough.
There's a lot.

630
00:38:24,170 --> 00:38:26,770
There's a big lens on the true
crime community right now,

631
00:38:26,770 --> 00:38:33,200
especially as it.
Relates to at home sleuths as

632
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:36,320
they refer to people who want to
help cases.

633
00:38:36,720 --> 00:38:40,720
And it's an interesting thing
because in some regard those at

634
00:38:40,720 --> 00:38:46,080
home sleuths end up being
responsible for reopening cases,

635
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:49,280
opening things like that.
But of course, bad things happen

636
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:52,360
too.
It's tough.

637
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:55,240
I don't know these, I mean just
doing what I do, which is

638
00:38:55,240 --> 00:38:58,160
recounting cases that have been
solved.

639
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:02,000
It's.
Very emotional.

640
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:10,080
It's I started writing this book
at the end of March, maybe 1st

641
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:14,240
of April, and I've almost
written this entire book.

642
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:18,280
I have not been sleeping.
I have not been eating.

643
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:20,840
I haven't been exercising.
I haven't been taking care of

644
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:24,480
myself.
As a matter of fact, I stayed up

645
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,680
till 5:00 o'clock this morning.
I mean, I was up for.

646
00:39:28,270 --> 00:39:33,390
Well over 24 hours and got a few
hours sleep before I was to do

647
00:39:33,390 --> 00:39:36,510
the podcast this morning.
I couldn't stop and so.

648
00:39:36,750 --> 00:39:38,950
Now I totally understand what
you're saying.

649
00:39:38,990 --> 00:39:45,910
I used to work my 8 hour job,
come home and just research and

650
00:39:45,910 --> 00:39:48,310
write and select one or two in
the morning.

651
00:39:48,590 --> 00:39:51,630
Actually, that's why the podcast
hasn't come out so regularly

652
00:39:51,630 --> 00:39:55,190
recently because I'm trying to
find a healthy workflow.

653
00:39:55,850 --> 00:40:01,010
And it's very difficult cuz like
sometimes you read something or

654
00:40:01,010 --> 00:40:04,410
about someone that something
happened to and you feel

655
00:40:04,410 --> 00:40:08,810
compelled to get it out of you,
and in a way.

656
00:40:11,090 --> 00:40:13,410
That's what's happening.
And you just have to.

657
00:40:14,090 --> 00:40:20,890
Yeah, and but I'm not.
I don't know.

658
00:40:20,890 --> 00:40:24,170
I just keep thinking I need to
do this because.

659
00:40:25,090 --> 00:40:27,730
I need people in my community
and everywhere.

660
00:40:27,930 --> 00:40:32,330
I mean this book that homicide
in the hood, murders that haunt

661
00:40:32,330 --> 00:40:35,450
a small town girl.
I mean, anybody can relate.

662
00:40:35,490 --> 00:40:38,850
There's, you know, anybody that
lives in a small town across the

663
00:40:38,850 --> 00:40:40,730
globe, not just here in the
United States.

664
00:40:40,730 --> 00:40:45,570
They can relate to murders like
that affecting a small community

665
00:40:46,090 --> 00:40:49,440
and.
Just by me starting to write

666
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:52,680
this book, it is kind of
stirring things up around here

667
00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:54,680
and think things are happening,
which is great.

668
00:40:54,720 --> 00:41:00,360
I mean, it's exactly what I
intended to do in in addition to

669
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:02,840
honoring the victims and their
families.

670
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:07,400
So being a researcher too and
being a professor and teaching

671
00:41:08,240 --> 00:41:10,800
some of the book is, you know,
the book is written from a first

672
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:13,760
person point of view from my
perspective growing up as a kid

673
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:16,200
and I had kind of an interesting
childhood.

674
00:41:17,130 --> 00:41:19,730
So they're funny.
Stories are weird things.

675
00:41:20,970 --> 00:41:24,890
My connections to being a
victim, you know, are woven

676
00:41:24,890 --> 00:41:28,930
throughout the book.
But also being an educator, you

677
00:41:28,930 --> 00:41:32,450
know, I want this to be an
educational experience because

678
00:41:32,450 --> 00:41:35,010
I've worked in the criminal
justice system for nearly 30

679
00:41:35,010 --> 00:41:39,170
years.
And the TV programs and all of

680
00:41:39,170 --> 00:41:42,490
the, you know, law and order,
SVU and all these different

681
00:41:42,490 --> 00:41:44,530
kinds of programs, CSI and
everything.

682
00:41:45,100 --> 00:41:49,460
People get a erroneous and
erroneous perception of how the

683
00:41:49,460 --> 00:41:53,060
criminal justice system actually
operates and how it actually

684
00:41:53,060 --> 00:41:55,620
works.
You know, all the and all of

685
00:41:55,620 --> 00:41:59,740
that.
And so I I want to kind of have

686
00:41:59,740 --> 00:42:03,220
a little educational piece in my
book too about the different

687
00:42:03,220 --> 00:42:07,780
types of forensic techniques and
technologies, how they work and

688
00:42:08,820 --> 00:42:13,340
and interestingly enough, the
former Granbury Chief of Police.

689
00:42:14,150 --> 00:42:19,190
From years ago sent reached out
to me cuz he you know saw me

690
00:42:19,190 --> 00:42:23,750
posting online and social media
about the upcoming book and he

691
00:42:23,750 --> 00:42:26,790
said Kelly do you remember this
case well?

692
00:42:27,710 --> 00:42:31,670
Granberry little old Granberry
Texas Police Department made

693
00:42:31,790 --> 00:42:35,750
Texas history.
At least we were the 1st Police

694
00:42:35,750 --> 00:42:42,840
Department to connect.
A suspect using CODIS when CODIS

695
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:46,560
was fully online and operational
in 1998.

696
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:48,720
Oh awesome.
Yes.

697
00:42:48,720 --> 00:42:52,640
So it's.
For people who don't know CODIS

698
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:56,960
is.
The Combined DNA Indexing

699
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:00,120
System, which is operated by the
FBI.

700
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:04,440
So people submit, you know when
there when there's a sample.

701
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:10,000
Found of some kind of biological
material at a crime scene.

702
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:13,640
They collect that, submit it to
the system and compare it to

703
00:43:13,720 --> 00:43:17,080
other samples, and those other
samples can come from other

704
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:19,760
crime scenes.
They can be in there because the

705
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:24,760
state law requires an arrestee
felony arrestee to submit a

706
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:28,080
sample or.
I think in California they

707
00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:31,800
require that now.
Yes, all 50 states have some

708
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:37,170
type of legislation requiring.
DNA submission from certain

709
00:43:37,170 --> 00:43:40,770
types of felons.
In Texas, it's all felons, you

710
00:43:40,770 --> 00:43:44,610
know, every single felon and
anybody that's placed on

711
00:43:44,690 --> 00:43:48,570
supervision that was convicted
of a felony, they submit a

712
00:43:48,570 --> 00:43:50,770
sample to you and of course, all
sex offenders.

713
00:43:51,530 --> 00:43:56,290
I mean that was invaluable up in
I think it was Michigan where

714
00:43:56,610 --> 00:44:00,250
there was a I don't want to be
wrong issues to the police

715
00:44:00,250 --> 00:44:03,690
officer or somehow related to
the Justice Department and.

716
00:44:04,240 --> 00:44:09,040
She realized there were like
4000 rape kits that had never

717
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:12,560
been properly tested or
submitted, and when they

718
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:14,600
finally, I think she raised the
money for it.

719
00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:20,520
It took years, but they were
able to link so many felons that

720
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:24,040
were already in the system to
these crimes.

721
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:28,600
Well, the the federal government
has, you know, they provide

722
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:31,520
grants through the Office of
Justice Programs and the Bureau

723
00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:34,730
of Justice Assistance.
So there are actually federal

724
00:44:34,730 --> 00:44:39,410
grants available right now to
law enforcement agencies to test

725
00:44:39,410 --> 00:44:42,570
the backlog of rape kits and
sexual assault kits.

726
00:44:42,570 --> 00:44:44,690
So that's.
So good to know cuz when that

727
00:44:44,690 --> 00:44:48,370
first came out like 10 years
ago, it was pretty alarming

728
00:44:49,090 --> 00:44:53,330
right, that we had thousands
upon thousands of rape kits and

729
00:44:53,330 --> 00:44:56,410
all these potential rapists just
out there.

730
00:44:56,570 --> 00:45:00,090
Right running around doing what
they do, unfortunately and.

731
00:45:00,850 --> 00:45:03,250
There's still a backlog.
I mean, even with the federal

732
00:45:03,250 --> 00:45:06,730
funding, it's just, but you
know, it's really interesting

733
00:45:06,730 --> 00:45:09,650
that the cops of that law
enforcement, even back before

734
00:45:09,650 --> 00:45:14,170
they even knew anything, like
they could never have imagined

735
00:45:14,170 --> 00:45:17,050
that we'd be using genetic
genealogy right now to solve

736
00:45:17,050 --> 00:45:20,010
cases.
They collected, they collected

737
00:45:20,010 --> 00:45:23,330
biological material somehow.
They knew okay, this is

738
00:45:23,330 --> 00:45:25,930
evidence, this is important.
And if it was preserved

739
00:45:25,930 --> 00:45:29,490
properly, you know, and not
mishandled over the years.

740
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:33,280
My gosh, look at all the cases
it's solving now, twenty, 30-40

741
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:35,280
years later.
I mean, that's the one I

742
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:37,680
referenced earlier, Joseph James
D'Angelo.

743
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:42,360
Golden State killer?
30 years later we get a match

744
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:45,880
based on somebody in the family
doing a DNA test.

745
00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:47,920
Right.
Incredible.

746
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:51,680
Isn't that amazing?
And this is happening all over

747
00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:54,560
the place.
I get alerts on my phone cuz I

748
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:58,520
set up Google alerts for cases
this cold case.

749
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:05,680
Handled based on genealogy.
I mean, it's awesome, but also

750
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:11,200
it just all these people who got
away with stuff because we just

751
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:12,960
didn't have the tools to get
them.

752
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:16,440
Right.
And so that's why I wanted to

753
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:20,080
put there's 10 chapters in the
book on site in the hood.

754
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:25,480
Chapter 9 is about forensic
techniques and technologies and.

755
00:46:25,990 --> 00:46:30,030
And you know, like I said, being
a professor and an educator,

756
00:46:30,030 --> 00:46:33,910
I'm, I'm not going through a
complete timeline of forensics

757
00:46:33,910 --> 00:46:39,190
because that goes back to you
know 5070 AD, you know, I mean

758
00:46:39,190 --> 00:46:42,510
way or even BC, you know, I mean
there's there's.

759
00:46:42,670 --> 00:46:47,070
And we were always trying stuff
wasn't always right, but we were

760
00:46:47,070 --> 00:46:49,910
trying things.
I mean, I know for a while they

761
00:46:49,910 --> 00:46:54,350
were very stuff like set on your
blood type.

762
00:46:55,010 --> 00:46:58,090
That was a way to eliminate
people very quickly.

763
00:46:58,370 --> 00:47:02,330
Yes, yes.
So nowadays it's just there's so

764
00:47:02,330 --> 00:47:07,010
many amazing things.
The MVAC technology which has

765
00:47:07,010 --> 00:47:12,970
been recently used to solve the
40 year old cold case, The MVAC

766
00:47:12,970 --> 00:47:18,930
is a wet vac system that squirts
like a sterile solution onto an

767
00:47:18,930 --> 00:47:22,170
object and creates like this
mini hurricane and it loosens up

768
00:47:22,250 --> 00:47:26,130
all the biological material.
And it's really good for

769
00:47:26,130 --> 00:47:32,450
obtaining DNA from very porous
rough surfaces that maybe is not

770
00:47:32,450 --> 00:47:36,210
traditionally you know like the
swabbing technique is kind of

771
00:47:36,210 --> 00:47:39,490
you know but but you can use
this for a large surface to make

772
00:47:39,490 --> 00:47:44,570
sure you get everything but yes
and it and it puts that into a

773
00:47:44,570 --> 00:47:47,450
special filter and then you can
take it out and test it and that

774
00:47:47,450 --> 00:47:50,090
sort of thing.
But it's you can test rocks.

775
00:47:50,510 --> 00:47:52,590
And bricks and different kinds
of surface.

776
00:47:52,630 --> 00:47:54,470
And you know what?
This technology was first

777
00:47:54,470 --> 00:47:58,990
designed to be used in the food
industry to remove pathogens

778
00:47:58,990 --> 00:48:02,550
from, you know, work surfaces.
And you know, hey, let's get all

779
00:48:02,590 --> 00:48:04,630
the damage out of this place
where we're cooking food.

780
00:48:04,630 --> 00:48:05,550
Y'all.
Right.

781
00:48:05,550 --> 00:48:07,710
No, it makes total sense.
Right.

782
00:48:07,710 --> 00:48:11,350
So yeah, that's been around for
a while, but it's, you know,

783
00:48:11,470 --> 00:48:13,950
they've solved a 40 year old
cold case by using that

784
00:48:13,950 --> 00:48:17,150
technology on a really, really
old piece of evidence.

785
00:48:17,710 --> 00:48:21,380
Oh, that's cool.
So I'm, I'm learning a lot, you

786
00:48:21,380 --> 00:48:24,380
know, I am learning quite a bit
and I love that.

787
00:48:25,660 --> 00:48:28,700
Writing this book and doing all
of the research and getting on

788
00:48:28,700 --> 00:48:32,260
ancestry, you know, and digging
around and trying to find people

789
00:48:32,260 --> 00:48:36,820
and looking at people's criminal
histories and you know, writing

790
00:48:36,820 --> 00:48:41,780
the the chapter about technology
and then it's been a very

791
00:48:41,780 --> 00:48:45,700
interesting learning experience.
But it also has kind of been a

792
00:48:45,700 --> 00:48:48,290
step back in time.
Going through all the old

793
00:48:48,290 --> 00:48:50,530
newspaper archives, I grew up in
this town.

794
00:48:51,010 --> 00:48:54,690
I remembered when these things
happen and these murders

795
00:48:55,050 --> 00:48:57,090
affected me.
They really did.

796
00:48:57,130 --> 00:48:59,250
And I.
These are your ghosts too?

797
00:48:59,770 --> 00:49:02,930
They, you know, they are.
And I don't want to take any

798
00:49:03,290 --> 00:49:07,170
kind of, you know, empathy or
anything away from the victim's

799
00:49:07,170 --> 00:49:11,570
families, but they they did, you
know, it did affect them,

800
00:49:11,650 --> 00:49:14,890
obviously, but it affects the
community when something like

801
00:49:14,890 --> 00:49:16,850
this happens, especially in a
small town.

802
00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:21,360
It robs people of their safety,
you know, It really changes

803
00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:23,200
people's behavior.
I mean, we didn't lock our

804
00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:25,920
doors.
Kids rode our bikes all around.

805
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:28,920
We we'd leave the house at 8:00
or 9:00, o'clock in the morning

806
00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:31,760
during the summer and we
wouldn't come back until it's

807
00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:34,400
dark.
You know, you can't do that

808
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:39,400
nowadays, so.
It's so interesting that we we

809
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:41,560
brought this up about how this
made you feel.

810
00:49:42,050 --> 00:49:46,530
Because my first episode this
season was speaking to another

811
00:49:46,530 --> 00:49:53,490
author and she wrote a book
about she actually wrote a

812
00:49:53,570 --> 00:49:58,370
fictional book about a crime
that didn't.

813
00:49:58,410 --> 00:50:01,130
It was her.
Her who would go out, who would

814
00:50:01,130 --> 00:50:04,090
have been her motherinlaw.
But she's talked to this man

815
00:50:04,090 --> 00:50:07,890
named Howard Morton, and he
reminded her that she had a

816
00:50:07,890 --> 00:50:11,690
right to care, even though the
woman who died wasn't her mom.

817
00:50:12,830 --> 00:50:18,590
Even though she divorced out of
the family, like, she still had

818
00:50:18,590 --> 00:50:21,070
a right to care about the things
that happen.

819
00:50:21,350 --> 00:50:25,510
And it's okay that we care on
some.

820
00:50:25,750 --> 00:50:28,750
In some ways, true crime is
entertainment, but it's okay

821
00:50:28,750 --> 00:50:32,270
that we care about, the people
that we write about and talk

822
00:50:32,270 --> 00:50:35,430
about, and it's even more so
right that you care because you

823
00:50:35,430 --> 00:50:40,030
lived there.
There is.

824
00:50:41,100 --> 00:50:43,740
You know, another murder that
happened, and I'm not going to

825
00:50:43,740 --> 00:50:48,580
cover in the book because the
family member just asked me not

826
00:50:48,580 --> 00:50:50,180
to.
They're not ready at this time.

827
00:50:51,540 --> 00:50:53,580
But I spent the night at their
house.

828
00:50:54,260 --> 00:50:56,700
I had a close personal
connection to them.

829
00:50:56,700 --> 00:50:59,620
I worked at a grocery store with
them as teenagers.

830
00:50:59,620 --> 00:51:04,100
And, you know, I was 20 years
old when this girl was murdered.

831
00:51:04,100 --> 00:51:07,380
And, I mean, that was the first
time I'd ever actually had a

832
00:51:07,380 --> 00:51:09,910
very close.
Close personal connection to

833
00:51:09,910 --> 00:51:13,990
someone that had died in that
manner, and it was devastating.

834
00:51:14,830 --> 00:51:17,670
And when I was in college at
that time I was majoring in

835
00:51:17,670 --> 00:51:18,390
English.
Hey.

836
00:51:19,350 --> 00:51:21,990
That's what I wanted.
Yeah, I went to school for.

837
00:51:24,310 --> 00:51:26,310
I switched.
But that's what I started out

838
00:51:26,350 --> 00:51:27,950
with me.
Too, I switched.

839
00:51:27,950 --> 00:51:32,710
I switched to college me and I
think just having a lot of.

840
00:51:33,380 --> 00:51:37,860
Family members myself and law
enforcement and them be and

841
00:51:37,860 --> 00:51:40,100
seeing that they're good people
and that they want to help

842
00:51:40,100 --> 00:51:43,660
people and and then me having a
helping nature as well.

843
00:51:43,660 --> 00:51:47,100
And I don't know.
I just I changed my major.

844
00:51:47,100 --> 00:51:52,220
I wanted to you know study
psychology but I know that these

845
00:51:52,220 --> 00:51:56,820
murders have have had an impact
on me and I just.

846
00:51:57,450 --> 00:51:58,970
I've always wanted to write a
book.

847
00:51:58,970 --> 00:52:02,290
It's kind of like the last
professional or goal that I have

848
00:52:02,290 --> 00:52:05,010
in my life to complete.
I've published other articles

849
00:52:05,010 --> 00:52:08,370
and published in scholarly
criminal justice articles.

850
00:52:08,690 --> 00:52:10,690
I mean journals.
You know which?

851
00:52:10,690 --> 00:52:14,330
I will link listeners to If you
wanna see Kelly's other writing,

852
00:52:14,730 --> 00:52:16,810
I have it saved.
It's gonna go in.

853
00:52:18,370 --> 00:52:20,970
You know, remember having to
write papers for school and look

854
00:52:20,970 --> 00:52:22,810
up resources and cite your
sources?

855
00:52:22,810 --> 00:52:25,650
Well, that's the kind of writing
that I've done mostly.

856
00:52:25,890 --> 00:52:28,810
I mean, I did do something for
the US Department of Justice

857
00:52:28,810 --> 00:52:32,370
back in 2008.
I was a field researcher

858
00:52:33,090 --> 00:52:37,170
examining domestic minor sex
trafficking, oddly enough, with

859
00:52:37,170 --> 00:52:40,570
one of my old Graduate School
professors, Doctor Ray Eve.

860
00:52:42,330 --> 00:52:44,850
So that was, that was pretty
interesting to team up with the.

861
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:48,000
One of my former professors to
do that research.

862
00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:52,440
But you know, but this writing,
this writing is the most

863
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:55,320
meaningful to me because it's
about my community.

864
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:59,080
It's about people that I knew.
It's about connections to places

865
00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:01,720
that I had been.
And it was frightening.

866
00:53:01,720 --> 00:53:06,360
I mean, my mother has literally
been waiting for the other shoe

867
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:10,160
to drop her entire life.
She is, she has been so afraid.

868
00:53:10,740 --> 00:53:13,340
Have somebody breaking in our
house, which they did try, and

869
00:53:13,340 --> 00:53:16,380
that there's a little recap, a
story about that in the book.

870
00:53:16,380 --> 00:53:20,540
It's pretty entertaining because
in Texas everybody has guns.

871
00:53:20,820 --> 00:53:24,780
That's all I'm going to say.
So you'll just have to read the

872
00:53:24,780 --> 00:53:26,220
book to find out what happened.
But.

873
00:53:27,060 --> 00:53:30,620
I'm interested.
Why is your mom afraid if

874
00:53:30,620 --> 00:53:32,500
everyone has guns?
Are they?

875
00:53:32,700 --> 00:53:35,660
Supposed to make it better?
You know what?

876
00:53:36,460 --> 00:53:40,180
Well, my mom has suffered her
own trauma in her life, so.

877
00:53:40,650 --> 00:53:42,410
That's caused some anxiety for
her.

878
00:53:42,410 --> 00:53:44,930
And so she was always very
protective of us and very

879
00:53:44,930 --> 00:53:46,890
afraid.
And she literally has been

880
00:53:46,890 --> 00:53:49,130
waiting for the other shoe to
drop, you know, something bad to

881
00:53:49,130 --> 00:53:52,250
happen.
It's just sad, you know, my poor

882
00:53:52,250 --> 00:53:55,250
mom.
But yeah, we had guns.

883
00:53:56,050 --> 00:54:00,810
But sometimes, you know, that's
not enough.

884
00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:05,160
Well, I mean, the statistics
about those are so up and down.

885
00:54:05,160 --> 00:54:08,440
I mean, what's the statement
that women are more likely to

886
00:54:08,440 --> 00:54:12,160
die by the gun in their home
when they have one That's not a

887
00:54:12,160 --> 00:54:16,520
good feeling to have because you
got it to protect yourself.

888
00:54:16,520 --> 00:54:19,720
It's it's rough.
That's why in Texas, we keep

889
00:54:19,720 --> 00:54:21,760
them blocked and loaded on our
night stand.

890
00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:24,720
There's no sense in digging
around in your drawer somewhere

891
00:54:24,720 --> 00:54:27,280
trying to load the gun.
It's right there.

892
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:31,820
Gosh.
I know we talked about so much

893
00:54:31,820 --> 00:54:35,220
fun stuff before, but I think
we'll leave your your funnier

894
00:54:35,220 --> 00:54:38,340
stories for your book for people
to read.

895
00:54:40,140 --> 00:54:41,180
Yeah.
I mean, because it's such as a

896
00:54:41,180 --> 00:54:43,260
serious it's serious.
It's.

897
00:54:44,860 --> 00:54:47,220
Yeah.
As you're you're talking, I'm

898
00:54:47,220 --> 00:54:52,740
thinking about a situation.
A little boy I knew who was

899
00:54:52,740 --> 00:54:57,700
killed.
We semi grew up together.

900
00:54:57,700 --> 00:54:59,860
I sort of.
I worked at like his summer

901
00:54:59,860 --> 00:55:03,540
camp.
His mom knew my parents.

902
00:55:05,300 --> 00:55:09,660
And that what I'm thinking about
is, is how that crime affected

903
00:55:09,660 --> 00:55:13,820
his mom to this day.
I mean, he would be almost 30

904
00:55:13,820 --> 00:55:17,940
years old now, and I think he
died when he was like 13, and

905
00:55:18,900 --> 00:55:22,460
she's written and talked about
it extensively and it was just

906
00:55:22,460 --> 00:55:25,140
so senseless.
Yeah, they all are.

907
00:55:26,190 --> 00:55:29,190
And and I write about the last
chapter in the book is about the

908
00:55:29,190 --> 00:55:31,430
families and how they deserve
justice.

909
00:55:32,030 --> 00:55:34,630
And I talk a little bit about
what justice is.

910
00:55:35,910 --> 00:55:42,270
But I also have had some of the
family members of the victims

911
00:55:42,910 --> 00:55:47,030
write an excerpt of something
for me to use in that chapter.

912
00:55:47,630 --> 00:55:50,150
And I'll also talk a little bit
about empathy.

913
00:55:50,150 --> 00:55:53,150
And I throw in a little bit of
research, scholarly research,

914
00:55:53,150 --> 00:55:54,830
because that's what I did.
I'm sorry, I can't help it,

915
00:55:54,830 --> 00:55:55,870
people.
I'm a nerd, too.

916
00:55:57,840 --> 00:56:00,960
So I throw in research like
real, legitimate scientific

917
00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:05,880
research about how homicide
affects the family members,

918
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:08,360
which by the way, which you may
already know this Britney.

919
00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:12,320
But for the listeners who do
not, they're called Co victims

920
00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:15,720
of homicide.
They are left behind to pick up

921
00:56:15,720 --> 00:56:18,800
the pieces of their lives
because someone they loved has

922
00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:23,400
been taken away from them.
I didn't know about that but

923
00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:29,570
where I work.
Offers therapy for not just the

924
00:56:29,570 --> 00:56:33,570
victims of sexual assault, but
also the family members too, for

925
00:56:33,570 --> 00:56:39,170
free in our community.
And they were the first people I

926
00:56:39,170 --> 00:56:44,770
heard that use that terminology.
Some of the people who work

927
00:56:44,770 --> 00:56:48,730
there have been connected to our
department because we work with

928
00:56:48,730 --> 00:56:51,570
kids.
And of course, sexual assault.

929
00:56:51,610 --> 00:56:55,340
This happens to children too.
But I that was the first time I

930
00:56:55,340 --> 00:56:58,460
heard that phrasing used was
this year was that the rest of

931
00:56:58,460 --> 00:57:01,340
the family technically are
considered victims too.

932
00:57:01,700 --> 00:57:03,900
Right.
And it's it's in the scholarly

933
00:57:03,900 --> 00:57:06,500
research it has been.
So that's great that you heard

934
00:57:06,500 --> 00:57:08,620
that from folks at your
employment.

935
00:57:08,620 --> 00:57:12,660
That means that they are staying
abreast of scientific research

936
00:57:12,660 --> 00:57:15,620
for their field, you know, which
is important for all any, any

937
00:57:16,100 --> 00:57:18,300
job.
I mean, unfortunately the

938
00:57:18,300 --> 00:57:22,060
Predators are up on the
information too, so everybody

939
00:57:22,060 --> 00:57:24,070
else has got to be.
That's right.

940
00:57:24,070 --> 00:57:26,390
We're we're always, it seems
like we're always one step

941
00:57:26,390 --> 00:57:29,230
behind them.
But, you know, yeah, it's funny

942
00:57:29,230 --> 00:57:32,910
you mentioned that about, you
know, anybody that knows me.

943
00:57:32,910 --> 00:57:35,110
I just have kind of a crazy
personality.

944
00:57:35,110 --> 00:57:38,830
I I always am trying to make
people laugh and I kind of

945
00:57:38,830 --> 00:57:41,230
always wanted to be a standup
comedian, you know?

946
00:57:41,230 --> 00:57:44,150
And then I have my serious side
where I'm doing this research

947
00:57:44,150 --> 00:57:46,670
and, you know, publishing
articles and all of these

948
00:57:46,670 --> 00:57:47,790
things.
And I don't.

949
00:57:48,460 --> 00:57:51,380
You know I'm just myself I'm
just a small town girl from

950
00:57:51,380 --> 00:57:53,100
Granbury.
No matter what I've accomplished

951
00:57:53,100 --> 00:57:57,220
in my career that still how I
see myself you know but I I, you

952
00:57:57,220 --> 00:57:59,620
know like you said it's a
serious subject but in the book

953
00:57:59,620 --> 00:58:02,940
there's kind of some funny
stories of about me and

954
00:58:02,940 --> 00:58:06,260
different things growing up and
and I the first chapter in

955
00:58:06,260 --> 00:58:10,260
homicide in the Hood sets the
stage for the reader to kind of

956
00:58:10,620 --> 00:58:13,220
immerse themselves in little
Hood County Texas.

957
00:58:13,220 --> 00:58:15,340
You know and it's interesting
that it's.

958
00:58:16,020 --> 00:58:17,740
You know, we call it homicide in
the hood.

959
00:58:17,740 --> 00:58:19,580
That could be any hood.
It could be anybody's

960
00:58:19,580 --> 00:58:22,500
neighborhood, you know, any
small town in in the country.

961
00:58:22,500 --> 00:58:25,900
But I just kind of set the stage
for the reader and then I have

962
00:58:25,900 --> 00:58:28,460
to go into this.
The bulk of the book is about

963
00:58:28,460 --> 00:58:31,940
the the cases.
And then the kind of the last

964
00:58:31,940 --> 00:58:35,260
part, you know, kind of section
three of the book is called

965
00:58:35,260 --> 00:58:39,380
Justice and demand and it's
about it's about some murderers

966
00:58:39,380 --> 00:58:42,620
who got caught and really,
really punished around here.

967
00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:48,280
Some some very significant cases
that affected a lot of people in

968
00:58:48,320 --> 00:58:56,320
in a really old cold case from
1979 that was solved in 2014 so

969
00:58:56,320 --> 00:58:59,120
and that that that occurred
under very interesting

970
00:58:59,120 --> 00:59:02,040
circumstances.
So, so I'll throw in a little

971
00:59:02,040 --> 00:59:04,840
bit of that about cases that
were solved and some weird

972
00:59:04,880 --> 00:59:08,160
stories from like you know the
newspapers I found from back in

973
00:59:08,160 --> 00:59:12,920
the early 80s.
But then go on to talk about how

974
00:59:13,080 --> 00:59:16,600
forensic technology has so
advanced and it can how it can

975
00:59:16,600 --> 00:59:20,480
be used to solve certain cases
and types of cases and types of

976
00:59:20,480 --> 00:59:22,880
evidence.
And then the last chapter to

977
00:59:22,880 --> 00:59:27,320
round it all out is about the
victims and their families.

978
00:59:27,440 --> 00:59:30,240
And I'm a very I know you are
too.

979
00:59:30,240 --> 00:59:32,760
I'm a very empathetic person.
I.

980
00:59:33,440 --> 00:59:35,560
Which?
Is different from sympathy.

981
00:59:35,560 --> 00:59:38,200
Sympathy is kind of feeling bad
for a person.

982
00:59:38,200 --> 00:59:40,240
You you see what they're going
through and.

983
00:59:40,660 --> 00:59:44,780
But empathy is putting yourself
in another person's shoes and

984
00:59:44,780 --> 00:59:47,060
trying to imagine what their
feelings are.

985
00:59:47,060 --> 00:59:50,260
It helps us as part of a it's
part of our emotional

986
00:59:50,260 --> 00:59:53,780
intelligence to connect with
other people and to have

987
00:59:53,780 --> 01:00:00,420
relationships, you know?
So I want people to feel that,

988
01:00:00,420 --> 01:00:04,860
and I want people to get
motivated, get active, to do

989
01:00:04,860 --> 01:00:09,030
something.
Not just in in my town, but in

990
01:00:09,030 --> 01:00:12,750
your town, wherever that may be.
If there are cold cases that

991
01:00:12,750 --> 01:00:16,710
haven't been solved, what's
going to help is pressure from

992
01:00:16,710 --> 01:00:18,430
the community.
That's right.

993
01:00:18,950 --> 01:00:23,790
Pressure to political elected
officials, you know, keeping

994
01:00:23,790 --> 01:00:26,910
that information fresh in the
minds of the community.

995
01:00:26,910 --> 01:00:29,270
And we've all seen stories.
And I know you have, Brittany.

996
01:00:29,270 --> 01:00:30,910
You've covered lots of cases
where?

997
01:00:31,520 --> 01:00:34,400
The community has just everybody
came out searching for the

998
01:00:34,400 --> 01:00:37,920
missing girl, right?
People came out in droves.

999
01:00:37,920 --> 01:00:39,920
It just really impacted a
community.

1000
01:00:40,200 --> 01:00:43,640
Everybody was involved.
That's sometimes what it's going

1001
01:00:43,640 --> 01:00:48,480
to take cuz right now in our day
and age, you know, we need to be

1002
01:00:48,560 --> 01:00:51,360
connected.
You know COVID, it's.

1003
01:00:51,480 --> 01:00:52,640
Weird.
Yeah.

1004
01:00:52,640 --> 01:00:57,680
It's weird how social media has
made us less connected, yeah.

1005
01:00:59,560 --> 01:01:02,260
It it.
It's a different thing, you

1006
01:01:02,260 --> 01:01:05,900
know, sitting in front of a
murder victim's family member

1007
01:01:06,380 --> 01:01:10,180
and watching the pain in their
face while they talk about their

1008
01:01:10,180 --> 01:01:13,700
loved one and getting angry.
They have every right to be

1009
01:01:13,700 --> 01:01:17,500
frustrated and angry that their
loved one's case has not been

1010
01:01:17,500 --> 01:01:20,260
solved and they feel like nobody
cares anymore.

1011
01:01:21,330 --> 01:01:23,450
They see people going on with
their lives.

1012
01:01:23,450 --> 01:01:25,650
How can they go on?
They're thinking, well, how can

1013
01:01:25,650 --> 01:01:27,570
I go on and live?
How can they go on and live

1014
01:01:27,570 --> 01:01:31,250
their lives when my sister or my
mother is still dead and we

1015
01:01:31,250 --> 01:01:35,810
don't know who did it?
Do you remember the Heart family

1016
01:01:35,810 --> 01:01:39,210
murders?
There was a lesbian couple with

1017
01:01:39,210 --> 01:01:43,170
six adopted children.
They the the mothers were

1018
01:01:43,610 --> 01:01:46,330
implicated in child abuse and
they drove their car.

1019
01:01:47,100 --> 01:01:48,580
Off of a Cliff in California.
Oh my.

1020
01:01:49,060 --> 01:01:50,660
Gosh, no, I don't think I've
heard of that.

1021
01:01:50,740 --> 01:01:54,780
One, it happened in 2018, and
actually shortly after I kind of

1022
01:01:54,780 --> 01:01:59,340
blew up on TikTok, the mother,
the biological mother of three

1023
01:01:59,340 --> 01:02:03,140
of the children who had died.
And they were taken away from

1024
01:02:03,140 --> 01:02:07,060
her because she had a mental
illness, which is so unfair.

1025
01:02:08,300 --> 01:02:11,380
And on top of that, she, she
reached out to me and she was

1026
01:02:11,380 --> 01:02:15,940
just like, can you cover the
story of my children's death and

1027
01:02:16,100 --> 01:02:18,540
that?
Is one of the hardest ones I've

1028
01:02:18,540 --> 01:02:19,740
ever done.
Right.

1029
01:02:21,500 --> 01:02:26,380
Because, I mean six babies
between the angels of, well, I

1030
01:02:26,380 --> 01:02:28,260
guess they're not all babies,
but 12 and 19.

1031
01:02:28,260 --> 01:02:31,700
Oh my gosh, that's.
Horrific.

1032
01:02:32,100 --> 01:02:34,740
And and what's worse is that
three of them shouldn't have

1033
01:02:34,740 --> 01:02:39,180
even been there because I could
go on for hours about how

1034
01:02:39,380 --> 01:02:42,960
unfair.
The the the Child Protective

1035
01:02:42,960 --> 01:02:47,840
Services is to certain people in
our culture and they let other

1036
01:02:47,840 --> 01:02:50,480
people get passes and that's
exactly what happened in that

1037
01:02:50,480 --> 01:02:54,000
case the the two.
Yes, girl.

1038
01:02:54,440 --> 01:02:59,000
The Listen working in childcare
and making the amount of reports

1039
01:02:59,000 --> 01:03:03,800
that I do it is insanely
frustrating the number of cases

1040
01:03:03,800 --> 01:03:07,120
that get dropped for lack of
evidence because the victims are

1041
01:03:07,120 --> 01:03:09,480
three or four years old.
And a three and four.

1042
01:03:09,480 --> 01:03:13,000
They don't have the language to
explain what's happened to them.

1043
01:03:13,280 --> 01:03:18,000
And it's extra traumatic to
force a child to now go through

1044
01:03:18,000 --> 01:03:22,560
this conversation again.
And so we just let it go.

1045
01:03:23,280 --> 01:03:30,840
Oh, it just boils my blood.
Well, there a lot of states have

1046
01:03:31,520 --> 01:03:34,240
child advocacy centers.
I'm not sure if you're familiar

1047
01:03:34,240 --> 01:03:37,960
with that concept, but it's a
colocation of services where

1048
01:03:37,960 --> 01:03:42,080
it's the.
Police, the district attorney's

1049
01:03:42,080 --> 01:03:46,840
office, people that can provide,
you know, orders, legal advice,

1050
01:03:46,840 --> 01:03:51,920
and they they, they put every
agency in one building that a

1051
01:03:51,920 --> 01:03:55,520
victim would need to speak with.
And they only tell their story

1052
01:03:55,520 --> 01:03:58,360
once.
So that's what they over and

1053
01:03:58,360 --> 01:04:01,440
over and over.
But they have forensic child

1054
01:04:01,440 --> 01:04:04,320
interviewers, people that do
play therapy with some of the

1055
01:04:04,320 --> 01:04:06,680
younger children you're talking
about that may not be able to.

1056
01:04:07,240 --> 01:04:09,760
Verbalize it as well.
We finally caught on to that.

1057
01:04:09,760 --> 01:04:13,000
I guess what that's after
research, you know research has

1058
01:04:13,000 --> 01:04:17,240
contributed to we learning to us
learning about these types of

1059
01:04:17,600 --> 01:04:20,360
issues.
And so yeah, then they have the

1060
01:04:20,400 --> 01:04:24,240
there's a similar contact
concept, pardon me, for the

1061
01:04:24,240 --> 01:04:27,320
family Justice Center for
victims of domestic violence.

1062
01:04:28,400 --> 01:04:31,880
They've got everything
collocated in one service

1063
01:04:31,880 --> 01:04:34,990
District Attorney.
Or a prosecutor that can write

1064
01:04:34,990 --> 01:04:40,070
an order of protection or police
there, there's social workers

1065
01:04:40,070 --> 01:04:44,550
and and there's a family Justice
Center in a close in a

1066
01:04:44,670 --> 01:04:47,390
neighboring county here that I
was involved in the strategic

1067
01:04:47,390 --> 01:04:50,830
planning for.
It is an amazing place, amazing

1068
01:04:50,830 --> 01:04:55,870
concept.
So I want folks to, right.

1069
01:04:56,430 --> 01:05:00,030
So yeah, it's it's been very
interesting.

1070
01:05:01,270 --> 01:05:07,560
I'm hoping.
That maybe one of these cases is

1071
01:05:07,560 --> 01:05:10,600
solved in this book, you know,
especially I mean.

1072
01:05:10,640 --> 01:05:13,320
Even if they just open them back
up, I mean that's.

1073
01:05:13,520 --> 01:05:15,280
They're all open.
I did.

1074
01:05:15,280 --> 01:05:18,040
Oh, that's great.
I did confirm they have never

1075
01:05:18,040 --> 01:05:22,280
been closed, but of course we're
a really small county, Hood

1076
01:05:22,280 --> 01:05:26,040
counties very small and we just
don't have enough resources.

1077
01:05:26,040 --> 01:05:30,440
I'm I'm wanting to work with it.
Police Department and the

1078
01:05:30,440 --> 01:05:32,640
Sheriff's Department.
I haven't spoken to the sheriff

1079
01:05:32,640 --> 01:05:34,800
yet.
I used to live behind his

1080
01:05:34,800 --> 01:05:36,400
daughter.
We were next door neighbors and

1081
01:05:36,400 --> 01:05:40,320
hung out.
But I would offer my services to

1082
01:05:40,320 --> 01:05:43,880
write grants for the Police
Department for free.

1083
01:05:43,880 --> 01:05:46,600
Not even charge them to do it.
Just give back to my community

1084
01:05:46,600 --> 01:05:51,080
to help them with whatever, you
know, training grants, grants

1085
01:05:51,080 --> 01:05:54,520
for equipment.
A lot of times small agencies

1086
01:05:54,520 --> 01:05:57,760
don't, you know, get a lot
because the money is sent to the

1087
01:05:57,760 --> 01:05:59,790
larger.
Especially in our city.

1088
01:06:00,470 --> 01:06:03,550
Yeah, Houston, you know.
Same thing in my state.

1089
01:06:03,710 --> 01:06:05,470
Philadelphia is going to get all
the money.

1090
01:06:05,550 --> 01:06:09,790
Right.
So I want to do that to help my

1091
01:06:09,790 --> 01:06:14,750
community too.
But this has been a very

1092
01:06:14,750 --> 01:06:17,830
interesting journey for me.
I just could not have imagined

1093
01:06:18,470 --> 01:06:20,870
all the doors that would have
opened up, the people that I've

1094
01:06:20,870 --> 01:06:25,190
talked to, people from Granbury,
and it doesn't matter what class

1095
01:06:25,190 --> 01:06:27,990
they graduated from Granbury
Pirates.

1096
01:06:28,370 --> 01:06:33,050
Class in 19, you know, 67.
I've talked to all people from

1097
01:06:33,050 --> 01:06:37,250
all ages, from all, you know
that our classmates are

1098
01:06:37,250 --> 01:06:41,850
concerned about Holly's case.
They it has devastated so many

1099
01:06:41,850 --> 01:06:43,330
people.
They still remember it.

1100
01:06:44,050 --> 01:06:46,250
You know, there's a lot of
people that want this thing

1101
01:06:46,250 --> 01:06:49,730
solved.
And so the Police Department has

1102
01:06:49,730 --> 01:06:52,450
worked really hard.
They've done a lot of things

1103
01:06:52,450 --> 01:06:54,650
over the years.
They have not let it go.

1104
01:06:55,010 --> 01:06:57,650
It's one of those cases that
sticks with that detective.

1105
01:06:58,340 --> 01:07:00,460
You know, they think about it
all the time.

1106
01:07:00,460 --> 01:07:02,220
They think of different.
Mortality of that.

1107
01:07:02,460 --> 01:07:05,700
Yes, yes.
We just need our district

1108
01:07:05,700 --> 01:07:08,860
attorneys in this town to do
something about it.

1109
01:07:10,620 --> 01:07:13,740
Well, I've said this to you off
air, but I'm going to say it to

1110
01:07:13,740 --> 01:07:17,860
you publicly to Kelly.
I think you're an exceptional

1111
01:07:17,860 --> 01:07:23,220
woman and just just this is what
you're doing is incredible and

1112
01:07:23,220 --> 01:07:25,260
and I hope that you get the
response.

1113
01:07:25,770 --> 01:07:28,170
That you want from your
community and from the true

1114
01:07:28,170 --> 01:07:31,570
crime community in terms of
wanting to give justice to these

1115
01:07:31,570 --> 01:07:34,770
families and giving voices to
families is something that we

1116
01:07:34,770 --> 01:07:39,090
definitely need to do more of
within the true crime community.

1117
01:07:39,530 --> 01:07:43,330
And anybody who does that is
great by me.

1118
01:07:44,970 --> 01:07:47,250
Now I know your Instagram is
Kelly.

1119
01:07:47,290 --> 01:07:51,570
That's Kelli Tomlinson, Martin.
And you told me you made a

1120
01:07:51,570 --> 01:07:55,130
TikTok.
I did, and I made a goofy video

1121
01:07:55,130 --> 01:07:58,930
on there of me singing to a
really rock'n'roll song.

1122
01:07:58,930 --> 01:08:00,610
Cuz I'm.
I mean, I don't sound like it.

1123
01:08:00,610 --> 01:08:03,370
I know I probably sound like a
country bunking on this podcast,

1124
01:08:03,690 --> 01:08:09,330
but but I'm a rock and roller,
so I had Dorothy in the

1125
01:08:09,330 --> 01:08:14,530
background.
More we talk, the more we we

1126
01:08:14,530 --> 01:08:17,250
have a little similarity.
Same thing with the personality,

1127
01:08:17,250 --> 01:08:20,630
very bright and bubbly.
You know, you and I, we chatted

1128
01:08:20,630 --> 01:08:24,109
for like hours the first time we
talked and and then you feel

1129
01:08:24,109 --> 01:08:28,910
this connection to, to wanting
to to remind people of things

1130
01:08:28,910 --> 01:08:33,310
that have happened to to to
shine lights on things to you

1131
01:08:33,310 --> 01:08:37,670
know one of the things I've been
focusing on I think last season

1132
01:08:37,670 --> 01:08:42,069
was the the the throwaway people
as as I feel like they call the

1133
01:08:42,069 --> 01:08:44,550
people of our society.
Whose cases?

1134
01:08:44,630 --> 01:08:49,120
Aren't getting solved because.
Maybe they're a drug addict or,

1135
01:08:49,359 --> 01:08:51,120
or maybe you live in a bad
neighborhood.

1136
01:08:51,120 --> 01:08:53,640
And so those are cases that I've
been talking more about.

1137
01:08:53,880 --> 01:08:58,040
You know, this is all stuff that
needs to be, you know, a light

1138
01:08:58,040 --> 01:09:02,680
shone on as often as possible.
And so I think it's amazing that

1139
01:09:02,680 --> 01:09:06,359
you're doing it.
Is Kelly, your Facebook page is

1140
01:09:06,359 --> 01:09:08,760
called Homicide in the Hood, the
same name as the book.

1141
01:09:09,080 --> 01:09:12,640
Is there any other way that
people can contact you on social

1142
01:09:12,640 --> 01:09:16,000
media if they want to follow you
as you're covering this case and

1143
01:09:16,000 --> 01:09:19,130
posting about things?
Those, those are the cases.

1144
01:09:19,210 --> 01:09:21,529
I mean, I'm sorry, those are the
platforms.

1145
01:09:21,529 --> 01:09:25,290
The Homicide in the Foot Hood
Facebook page, that Instagram,

1146
01:09:25,290 --> 01:09:29,010
Kelly, Tomlinson Martin and the
TikTok with that same name.

1147
01:09:29,689 --> 01:09:33,569
Kelly Tomlinson Martin, right?
No.

1148
01:09:33,569 --> 01:09:35,130
No.
Cousins in there because my

1149
01:09:35,130 --> 01:09:37,649
cousin was a sheriff here and
everybody knew who Edmund

1150
01:09:37,649 --> 01:09:39,370
Tomlinson was.
But.

1151
01:09:39,490 --> 01:09:43,850
So yeah, I'm going to link all
of those in the liner notes for

1152
01:09:43,850 --> 01:09:46,640
the episode.
I was going to say thank you so

1153
01:09:46,640 --> 01:09:50,319
much for speaking with us and I
can't wait to see the book when

1154
01:09:50,319 --> 01:09:53,640
it comes out.
Get a copy post about it myself.

1155
01:09:54,200 --> 01:09:56,920
Well, I appreciate that.
Thank you so much and thank you

1156
01:09:56,920 --> 01:09:59,840
to all the listeners.
And and I just want to say, you

1157
01:09:59,840 --> 01:10:03,280
know, say a prayer for the
victims.

1158
01:10:03,440 --> 01:10:06,120
You know, we, we tend to
sensationalize the killers all

1159
01:10:06,120 --> 01:10:08,600
the time.
But in my book, I want to talk

1160
01:10:08,600 --> 01:10:11,120
about the victims and who they
were too, you know.

1161
01:10:11,920 --> 01:10:14,720
So thank you very much all.
Right.

1162
01:10:15,290 --> 01:10:18,130
And for everybody listening, you
have a good weekend.