Episode 15: Jesse Pomeroy, a teenage nightmare for South Boston

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Everybody, It's here.
Killer country.

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My name is Brittany Ransom.
And my name is Brian Joyner and

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this is When Killers Get Caught,
a podcast devoted to deep dives

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into the lives and psyches of
the killers we love to learn

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about.
Each week Brian and I will find

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a true Crime Story that
resonated with us.

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Then I discuss one well known or
lesser known killer and go deep

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into their childhood lives,
methodology, and most

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importantly how they got caught.
And then we get a little spooky

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and learn something about
encrypted or just the

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supernatural, or something that
Brian wants to frighten us with.

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So this week in True Crime, I
found a story from 2017 taking

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place in the small city in
Virginia, shedding in the

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Shenandoah Valley Waynesboro,
where someone was taking cats

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and and shaving their
underbellies and the legs.

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Why?
Nobody knows.

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He's just referring him as the
cereal cat Shaver did.

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They catch this person?
No.

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This person has not been found.
Nope.

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Let's see, the article that I
found was from April and it had

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been done 7 times up to that
point when they reported on it.

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I couldn't find anything recent.
I tried to see if the serial cat

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shaver had been found, but the
police said that all the cats

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are returned unharmed.
Those slightly bothered they all

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had owners because they were
well groomed, wearing collars.

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Police aren't exactly sure what
crime they could even charge

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this person with.
There has to be illegal in one

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state so but but the owners this
is a direct quote would just

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like it to stop.
Please.

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I'm just OK.
I saw like signs that people put

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up on like, you know, like on
posts saying like cat shaving,

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really like people are very
upset.

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I thought someone was offering
cat.

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I thought you were gonna.
That was leading to somebody

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offering cat shaving that like
the people in the community were

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putting up posters and stuff
like, are you serious?

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Please stop.
It has to be a teenager.

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First of all, it has to be a
teenager just out there.

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You think so?
Yeah, obviously.

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Like getting the neighborhood
cats and just shaving them and

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then letting them return home.
Well, the best part of that was

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even covered in VICE because it
was just so weird.

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I have a question.
So they get they get kidnapped

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from home, shaved and then
returned.

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Okay now was the shaving.
Was it well done shaving?

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They said that it's the entire
like underside of the cat and

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its legs, so they're leaving the
top fur and the head.

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Yeah, but was it like someone
just, like, grabbed the razor?

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Just like, yeah, to a cat.
Well, see, at first cops thought

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that this was some like strange
person picking up strays and

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like spaying and neutering them
because you normally shave the

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underside.
But then they realized these

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were people's pets, so they have
no idea.

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Those poor cats.
I mean, if they didn't shave her

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properly, I I feel for their
nipples.

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But I'm just saying like I'm
looking at it is.

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Here's a sign on like a a light
pose.

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The shaving cats, several
neighborhood cats have been

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abducted and had their lower
abdomens and groin area shaved.

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This is very upsetting to the
cats and their owners.

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If you have any access
information about this

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suspicious activity, please
contact the Police Department

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and it gives a number.
Our cats will thank you.

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No one's seen the person who
ever did it.

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There were no witnesses.
They don't know if it was done

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alone.
You know it.

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It reminds a lot of people of
the Watcher case.

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Do you remember that?
Was that happened in California?

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Oh gosh, was it California, the
Watcher?

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These people bought a house, OK?
And they started receiving

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letters is in New Jersey.
There we go.

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They were this.
And it was a really fancy house

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like, you know, $1.4 million.
They started receiving hand

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delivered letters and they were
super creepy talking about like

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my grandfather was a Watcher and
my father was a Watcher and now

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it's my time to be a Watcher.
You know, will the Youngblood

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live in this part of the house?
I can't wait to hear their

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voices.
Like, super creepy stuff.

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But like nothing ever came from
and he'd like the watcher

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delivered a couple more loud
letters.

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The broadest is tried to sell
their house.

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They couldn't.
They tried to like get something

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done to it.
And the city, like, wouldn't

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allow them to do any
construction onto the area

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because in order for them to put
up a fence, it would encroach on

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their, like, neighbor's
property.

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And the fence had to be a
certain, like, height.

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It was a crazy story and it's
completely unsolved.

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So people are like, is this like
the Watcher?

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Like the Cat Barber?
The cat shaver.

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No, what this reminds me of is
of a story I heard.

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I think it was out in either
somewhere Midwest or out West.

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Someone was putting cowboy hats
on top of pigeons on pigeons

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heads.
You know what I mean?

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Maybe this maybe.
OK, unlike the Watcher, the

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Watcher is a real creep.
This guy.

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Maybe this guy is just, this is
somebody who just wants to see

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the world burn.
It's just a little bit of

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chaotic energy.
This is a chaotic neutral

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character in a D in D game.
Chaotic neutral, not chaotic

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evil.
Because you're not really doing

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anything bad.
You're not breaking any laws.

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And I wouldn't say chaotic good
because you are specifically

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annoying people, but you're just
trying to cause some chaos in

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the world for funsies.
I.

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Guess, but I feel bad because
like hair growing back is no

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fun.
It grows back weird and not in

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the right direction.
For cats, those cats are

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probably hurting right now.
Yeah, well, it's been a couple

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years, so hopefully it's never
been reported again.

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Like, I can't find any other
articles about this past April

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of 2017, so apparently it
stopped.

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If you live in Virginia,
specifically the Shenandoah

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Valley, please write us an
e-mail.

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OK?
Caught podcast at Gmail.

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Did the cat shaver stop or is it
still going on?

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My goodness, we want to know.
I kind of want to know.

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Absolutely.
No, don't listen to him.

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I need to know, are the cats
still being unwillingly

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barbered?
Oh.

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My goodness, I hope they're not.
But what is your true Crime

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Story?
OK, hold on, hold on, hold on,

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hold on, hold on, hold on.
No, I just want to.

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I just wanna ask you another.
Just make another statement on

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that.
You're a cat shaver.

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I'm just wondering, like how
they could shave all those cats

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they must have, Like they must
have been wearing some type of

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protective gear because those
cats would not take that shit.

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They would definitely scratch
the crap out of them or bite

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them at least, because they're
getting the underbellies and

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it's strange.
I mean, I mean cat won't let you

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touch their underside if they
no, unless they really like you.

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This is true my cat.
Yeah she she does.

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But anyway, yeah, but I'm just
thinking, like, they had to have

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had some type of gear on and it
like or just like drug the cat

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or something.
OK, so spin on this, right.

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Who has that kind of protective
gear?

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People who work with animals or
people who pick up strays, they

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have those like gloves that go
up their arms.

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So this is somebody who works
within the animal welfare field.

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Look, we're giving you guys
clues.

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Chaotic.
We're giving you guys clues is a

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veterinary assistant or
something who's such a ranged

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vet assistant who wants to see
the world itch.

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Yes, look at all the
veterinaries around in Virginia

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or around that area in Virginia,
Shenandoah Valley.

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And you'll probably find your
culprit.

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All right.
So anyway, let me ask you a

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question.
Sure.

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So.
If you woke up one day and there

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was $1.2 million deposited into
your bank account accidentally,

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of course, what would you do?
Well, normally it would say

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where it came from, right?
Normally, yes.

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So like if it came from the IRS,
I would be like, hello, Mr.

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Government, would you like to
take this back?

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Because nobody accidentally puts
money in your bank account.

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Nobody does.
And if they do, they're going to

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come looking.
They will come looking for one

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time when I worked for the
state, they accidentally put

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double my paycheck into my bank
account.

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And my bank wouldn't give it
back to them because they were

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like, this is a different kind
of like the way it's deposited,

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it's different than like a
regular like check.

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And so all the state did was you
just have to pay us back.

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And so they like started like
taking like 1/4 of the check

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from the next tracks.
Yeah, that's what that happened

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at my one restaurant job.
They had overpaid a couple of

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our cooks and they were like,
okay.

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We obviously fudge this up, so
you guys are gonna have to give

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us that money back.
And there and you know, the

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cooks are just, you know, help
people just quit and dip.

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No, no, no, no.
They were just complaining about

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it like the whole time.
Like I like I understand the,

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you know, I I want to keep this
like it was your fault for

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putting this in my account so I
really shouldn't have to do

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anything about it but like I get
it like they it was they messed

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up.
So anyway, but I'm guessing

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you're tell me about somebody
who didn't give the money back.

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Someone who did, who tried their
hardest not to give the money

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back.
So this is not, this is not

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something you can win.
So the headline reads A woman

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arrested for refusing to return
$1.2 million accidentally

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deposited into her bank account,
who gave her the money?

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I think it was.
It was probably her her job.

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So she's a former Louisiana
police dispatcher.

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So she was arrested last week
after, you know, she allegedly

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would not return $1.2 million
that was deposited in her bank

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account.
Her name is Keelan Spadani Okay.

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She's 33.
So yeah, she got fired from the

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Sheriff's Office after being
charged for theft.

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So she ended up losing her job
on top of, yes, probably being

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charged with fraud.
So I'm guessing or theft.

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Yeah, I'm guessing.
So what she was charged with

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was.
Theft that valued over $25,000,

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Bank fraud and illegal
transmission of monetary funds?

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Yes.
See Is that worth really getting

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charged with Grand Theft?
No, absolutely not.

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So what happened is, I guess her
job deposited extra funds into

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her account or somebody.
Charles Schwab.

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So she was.
Oh, Justice.

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Isn't that like a investment
company?

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Or is it a bank?
Charles Schwab, I'm pretty sure

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that's like, big.
Money.

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It doesn't say in the article
Charles Schwab.

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But um, but the messed up thing
is, yeah, it's brokerage,

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banking, and finance.
OK, so yeah, it's a finance

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company.
So it's a big finance company.

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Like big money.
Yeah, I'm not sure how they got

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her bank account information, so
they just accidentally like put

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in the wrong like digit.
They probably and sent a. 10 My

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This is what I'm thinking so.
What she did was I disappear.

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She she moved the money that she
that was deposited into another

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bank account.
Absolutely.

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Listen, if you gonna go the
criminal route, you gotta do it.

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You need to move that money.
So I think it was OK.

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So you're saying there's like an
investment place, right?

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Or yeah, yeah, Charles Schwab
does investment banking,

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brokerage stuff.
So this is probably the her bank

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that accidentally put this money
into her account.

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I've heard of other banks doing
that.

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Yeah, so.
And I've also heard of other

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people try to get away with it,
but it was a guy not heard of

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this lady.
But yeah, so she moved the money

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to another account, which Schwab
couldn't access at all.

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Right, So.
So since they were unable to

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contact her, absolutely, I would
turn off my phone entirely.

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Listen, if you're gonna go the
criminal route, you gotta go all

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00:13:06,850 --> 00:13:08,610
the way.
Burn our phones.

229
00:13:09,680 --> 00:13:12,480
Jump to US country that doesn't
have extradition.

230
00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:19,280
Go get lost in Mexico like you
just got to go full criminal.

231
00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:21,440
If you're going this route, you
can't stay in your old

232
00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:24,680
neighborhood.
OK, well, they followed A

233
00:13:24,680 --> 00:13:27,600
lawsuit against her since they
couldn't get in contact with

234
00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:28,640
her.
But you know what?

235
00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:32,600
I have $1.2 million to use for
my legal defense.

236
00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:35,960
Oh.
My God, they're not gonna let

237
00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:41,260
you use stolen money.
At this point it's stolen.

238
00:13:41,740 --> 00:13:44,060
I mean, wouldn't they be able to
get it seized at that point?

239
00:13:44,100 --> 00:13:47,340
Yeah, at Prop.
Maybe if you can get to her

240
00:13:47,340 --> 00:13:49,940
other accountant, I thought.
I thought that could happen.

241
00:13:49,940 --> 00:13:51,300
I thought the government could
do that.

242
00:13:51,300 --> 00:13:56,980
Probably, But yeah, so it says
they've so far recovered about

243
00:13:56,980 --> 00:14:01,010
75% of the money.
Oh, she want to spend this breed

244
00:14:01,010 --> 00:14:05,730
in, she.
Yeah, she bought a new house and

245
00:14:05,730 --> 00:14:10,250
a new car. 2021 Honda Genesis.
Hyundai Genesis.

246
00:14:10,250 --> 00:14:11,890
My bad.
Don't want to confuse those.

247
00:14:12,010 --> 00:14:13,610
Wait, this happened in the last
year?

248
00:14:14,530 --> 00:14:16,810
Yeah.
Oh wow, this is recent.

249
00:14:16,850 --> 00:14:19,370
You would think after how often
these sort of things have

250
00:14:19,370 --> 00:14:23,410
happened that people wouldn't
try to get away with it.

251
00:14:27,770 --> 00:14:31,410
So.
I guess the the captain of the

252
00:14:31,490 --> 00:14:34,770
Sheriff's Office.
He says that if anyone

253
00:14:34,770 --> 00:14:38,090
accidentally puts an extra 0 on
a utility bill, they would want

254
00:14:38,090 --> 00:14:40,170
that money returned or credited
to them, right?

255
00:14:40,730 --> 00:14:44,370
This is no different.
So she has no legal rights.

256
00:14:44,370 --> 00:14:48,970
It also says she has no legal
right to the money either.

257
00:14:49,810 --> 00:14:52,730
So yeah, well here's the
question.

258
00:14:52,730 --> 00:14:55,210
Right.
I would actually be quite pissed

259
00:14:55,830 --> 00:14:59,510
if I was paying my $40 electric
bill and I put an extra 0.

260
00:15:00,030 --> 00:15:05,270
I don't want you to credit my
electric bill 307 like $360.00.

261
00:15:05,670 --> 00:15:08,990
I want the $360.00 back.
Exactly, It's.

262
00:15:08,990 --> 00:15:10,350
What are you saying?
No, he said.

263
00:15:10,350 --> 00:15:12,630
In there you would want it
credited to your account.

264
00:15:12,750 --> 00:15:15,430
I don't want that either.
OK, you want a credited back,

265
00:15:15,430 --> 00:15:16,870
You want a credit or you want
the money back?

266
00:15:16,870 --> 00:15:20,350
I want the money.
I would want the money because

267
00:15:20,350 --> 00:15:22,070
listen, I'm like, listen, I'll
credit you.

268
00:15:22,070 --> 00:15:26,230
Charles Schwab, Here's $100.
I'll pay it off and like 100

269
00:15:26,230 --> 00:15:29,830
years.
There you go, $100 a year.

270
00:15:30,430 --> 00:15:34,990
No, Let's say A. $100 a month?
There you go.

271
00:15:34,990 --> 00:15:36,750
Goodness.
Well, the issue with her buying

272
00:15:36,750 --> 00:15:39,030
that house is that, like, you
know, you can't afford.

273
00:15:39,030 --> 00:15:41,070
I was about to say she can't
afford it anymore.

274
00:15:41,070 --> 00:15:43,550
I bet you you know you can't
afford that mortgage.

275
00:15:43,870 --> 00:15:47,230
I don't know.
I won the lottery apparently

276
00:15:47,230 --> 00:15:50,750
somewhere.
But yeah, that's some Well, that

277
00:15:50,750 --> 00:15:53,900
was like, is one of my Facebook
groups that deals with, like,

278
00:15:53,900 --> 00:15:57,740
being, like, working.
Somebody posted that like her.

279
00:15:57,820 --> 00:16:01,820
She had gotten like a much lower
severance check because she

280
00:16:01,860 --> 00:16:03,540
ended up fighting with the job
or whatever.

281
00:16:03,860 --> 00:16:06,700
And then she ended up getting
like a payment of like $20,000

282
00:16:06,700 --> 00:16:08,420
in her bank account.
And she was only supposed to get

283
00:16:08,420 --> 00:16:12,660
like 2000 or like 1200.
And she was just like, what do I

284
00:16:12,660 --> 00:16:15,900
do with this?
And I was like, contact your

285
00:16:15,900 --> 00:16:18,900
job, stupid.
You got one.

286
00:16:19,180 --> 00:16:25,420
You left the job in bad straight
like in on bad terms, and then

287
00:16:25,420 --> 00:16:26,980
they accidentally gave you too
much.

288
00:16:27,060 --> 00:16:31,020
I'm like, go to your lawyer and
tell the lawyer to go check with

289
00:16:31,020 --> 00:16:35,820
them.
So you're saying she your this

290
00:16:35,820 --> 00:16:38,100
person in your group?
Yeah, should have contacted the

291
00:16:38,140 --> 00:16:40,780
job, but what about this person?
Oh no, that Lady absolutely

292
00:16:40,780 --> 00:16:42,060
should have.
That's why I said I would have

293
00:16:42,060 --> 00:16:44,460
done the same thing.
I was just saying if she wanted

294
00:16:44,460 --> 00:16:46,860
to go full criminal, she need to
go all the way.

295
00:16:46,980 --> 00:16:48,980
You can't go halfway.
No.

296
00:16:49,990 --> 00:16:53,030
You are now on the land.
This is your life now.

297
00:16:53,390 --> 00:16:56,350
Kiana, connect.
Connect.

298
00:16:56,350 --> 00:16:57,990
Whatever her name was, Oh my
God.

299
00:16:59,870 --> 00:17:04,510
This is your life.
You are now a woman on the ride.

300
00:17:04,510 --> 00:17:08,790
I would have put that money into
like Visa prepaid card.

301
00:17:08,829 --> 00:17:12,550
How many Visa prepaid kids you
only get?

302
00:17:12,550 --> 00:17:16,310
Like $500 per card?
He's going to keep buying it and

303
00:17:16,310 --> 00:17:19,190
you know you're going to pay
like $10 per card for those.

304
00:17:19,770 --> 00:17:21,569
That that'll be worth it.
It's OK.

305
00:17:21,569 --> 00:17:23,970
I'll still have money.
I still have enough leftover.

306
00:17:23,970 --> 00:17:26,970
Don't, don't.
Don't rub your eyes at me.

307
00:17:29,490 --> 00:17:34,970
You're a mess.
Ohh well that was wonderful.

308
00:17:36,290 --> 00:17:38,090
Was a good, good pile of
wonderful.

309
00:17:38,170 --> 00:17:40,770
And I'm I'm happy we had a good,
happy moment because I'm about

310
00:17:40,770 --> 00:17:43,330
to bring this mood way down.
Yay, here we go.

311
00:17:51,130 --> 00:17:55,170
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330
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And make sure you tell Brittany
that I sent you

331
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so my person of interest this
week.

332
00:19:22,700 --> 00:19:24,740
Well, actually, before we get
into this, just like I did

333
00:19:24,740 --> 00:19:29,580
before when I talked about Ian
Hinckley Henley and Anna Myra

334
00:19:29,580 --> 00:19:33,100
Hinley, I do need to give
someone of a content warning

335
00:19:33,100 --> 00:19:35,060
about my portion of this
episode.

336
00:19:36,140 --> 00:19:39,100
The killer this week is actually
a child, and his victims were

337
00:19:39,100 --> 00:19:42,980
all children, and the crimes
against them were particularly

338
00:19:42,980 --> 00:19:45,500
horrible.
If you're listening, I'm going

339
00:19:45,500 --> 00:19:48,300
to give you a small warning
before I go into more details,

340
00:19:48,820 --> 00:19:54,340
but timestamps will be listed on
the information section in the

341
00:19:54,340 --> 00:19:57,220
blurb for the podcast, so you
could absolutely skip over this

342
00:19:57,220 --> 00:19:59,740
if you don't want to listen to
it at all.

343
00:19:59,740 --> 00:20:02,580
I won't be offended.
I understand it's not

344
00:20:02,580 --> 00:20:05,780
everybody's jam to learn about
children being abused.

345
00:20:07,940 --> 00:20:11,700
OK, thanks for the warning.
I had to sit here and listen to

346
00:20:11,700 --> 00:20:13,140
it.
Absolutely you do.

347
00:20:13,300 --> 00:20:14,980
I'm sorry, you've also been
warned.

348
00:20:15,810 --> 00:20:20,730
You just can't skip ahead.
So I did give a little bit of a

349
00:20:20,730 --> 00:20:24,530
hint about this week's Person of
Interest last week when I said

350
00:20:24,530 --> 00:20:27,010
that they were one of America's
youngest and earliest serial

351
00:20:27,010 --> 00:20:29,730
killers.
He's still the youngest person

352
00:20:29,730 --> 00:20:32,850
in the history of Massachusetts
to be convicted of firstdegree

353
00:20:32,850 --> 00:20:35,570
murder, and at the time, he was
the youngest in the United

354
00:20:35,570 --> 00:20:38,450
States.
Interestingly enough, we like to

355
00:20:38,450 --> 00:20:40,730
think that kids aren't capable
of such things.

356
00:20:41,340 --> 00:20:44,620
But he's not the only child in
the world or during this time

357
00:20:44,620 --> 00:20:47,340
period.
In the mid 1800s there was a

358
00:20:47,340 --> 00:20:49,300
German girl named Marie
Schneider who killed a

359
00:20:49,300 --> 00:20:52,260
three-year old in 1886.
She was only 12.

360
00:20:52,660 --> 00:20:56,700
In 1855, two preteens and
Liverpool, England killed a

361
00:20:56,700 --> 00:20:59,780
classmate with a brick after
they lost a game.

362
00:21:00,540 --> 00:21:03,060
So even though the Ike this
makes a lot of people

363
00:21:03,060 --> 00:21:07,180
uncomfortable, it's not all
unheard of and.

364
00:21:07,790 --> 00:21:10,510
What's interesting is that this
wasn't like a rash decision like

365
00:21:10,510 --> 00:21:14,790
those cases were.
Jesse Pomeroy was 14 when he

366
00:21:14,790 --> 00:21:17,310
committed murder, but he
actually started torturing

367
00:21:17,310 --> 00:21:22,630
children earlier in life, and
that all earned him the nickname

368
00:21:22,670 --> 00:21:26,550
of the Boston Boy Fiend, and he
was also referred to as the Red

369
00:21:26,550 --> 00:21:34,030
Devil.
But before he was the boy fiend,

370
00:21:34,830 --> 00:21:39,130
he was just a little boy.
Born on November 29th, 1859 to

371
00:21:39,130 --> 00:21:43,410
Ruth and Pomeroy and Thomas
Pomeroy in Boston, He had an

372
00:21:43,450 --> 00:21:45,890
older brother named Charles who
was two years older than him.

373
00:21:46,770 --> 00:21:52,450
Boston was this bustling growing
city and unfortunately Jesse

374
00:21:52,450 --> 00:21:54,610
didn't have the best life
growing up.

375
00:21:54,610 --> 00:21:59,490
He's father was an alcoholic,
he's a dock worker and they grew

376
00:21:59,490 --> 00:22:02,570
up in the lower middle class
household in a section of Boston

377
00:22:02,570 --> 00:22:06,570
called Chelsea.
His father was a mean drunk who

378
00:22:06,570 --> 00:22:09,330
was prone to beating them for
minor indiscretions.

379
00:22:10,170 --> 00:22:13,450
Sometimes things simple like
skipping school, telling a lie.

380
00:22:14,650 --> 00:22:18,730
He would use belts and even
horse whips on his sons.

381
00:22:19,090 --> 00:22:21,930
He would take them out behind
the outhouse, behind their house

382
00:22:21,970 --> 00:22:25,170
and just brutally beat them
until they started, until they

383
00:22:25,170 --> 00:22:32,130
were bleeding.
For some reason, Thomas always

384
00:22:32,130 --> 00:22:35,590
made them strip.
Naked before he beat them.

385
00:22:36,030 --> 00:22:40,350
And some psychologists have
discussed that this might have

386
00:22:40,350 --> 00:22:44,430
been the point in Jesse's
childhood where he began to

387
00:22:44,430 --> 00:22:49,750
connect pain and sexual arousal,
because this is the same sort of

388
00:22:49,750 --> 00:22:53,430
abuse that he recreated on his
victims years later.

389
00:22:56,310 --> 00:23:00,430
Jesse The family couldn't keep
pets because they always ended

390
00:23:00,430 --> 00:23:05,380
up dead.
The family had pet birds and

391
00:23:05,380 --> 00:23:08,580
both of their heads ended up
twisted off of their bodies.

392
00:23:09,460 --> 00:23:13,060
He was caught torturing one of
the neighbors kittens and after

393
00:23:13,060 --> 00:23:16,820
that his mother Ruth refused to
allow any more pets into their

394
00:23:16,820 --> 00:23:18,820
home.
But that didn't really stop

395
00:23:18,820 --> 00:23:22,020
Jesse and he ended up killing
other animals in his free time.

396
00:23:22,140 --> 00:23:26,500
Yeah, I don't think just
stopping the the pets coming in

397
00:23:26,500 --> 00:23:29,260
would stop the actions.
Nope.

398
00:23:29,820 --> 00:23:32,900
Yeah, he didn't have a lot of
friends because he looked weird

399
00:23:32,900 --> 00:23:36,740
and kids are cruel.
He's reported to have a very

400
00:23:36,740 --> 00:23:40,180
large head for his frame, which
children made fun of.

401
00:23:40,180 --> 00:23:43,500
He was also born with a white
membrane over his right eye that

402
00:23:43,500 --> 00:23:44,980
made it look like he had a
cataract.

403
00:23:46,060 --> 00:23:50,500
He also sometimes had seizures.
He was very sensitive about his

404
00:23:50,500 --> 00:23:55,140
looks and he was also like a
bigger kid in general than other

405
00:23:55,140 --> 00:23:59,420
kids his age too.
He had a large mouth, but with a

406
00:23:59,420 --> 00:24:02,020
really small upper lip and big
ears.

407
00:24:02,020 --> 00:24:04,820
And what I'm just telling you is
that he was an easy target for

408
00:24:04,820 --> 00:24:07,260
children to make fun of because
that's just how it works.

409
00:24:09,180 --> 00:24:12,380
He didn't have a lot of friends.
He hated sports and spent almost

410
00:24:12,380 --> 00:24:15,060
all of his free time reading
stories about the American

411
00:24:15,060 --> 00:24:18,580
Indian Wars when he did play
with other kids.

412
00:24:18,660 --> 00:24:20,780
And they played like scouts and
Indians.

413
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:24,600
He was aggressive and violent
and he try and reenact the

414
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,840
things he was reading in his
books, which is why he ended up

415
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:31,640
not having many friends, right?
He's yeah, going a little too

416
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:35,960
far.
As with most psychopaths, he

417
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:39,520
moved from animal torture to
human torture, but when he was

418
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:47,120
12 years old, his first known
victim is 4 year old William

419
00:24:47,120 --> 00:24:50,650
Payne.
Liam Payne was found in a small,

420
00:24:50,650 --> 00:24:54,570
isolated cabin on Powderhorn
Hill near the Chelsea Creek in

421
00:24:54,570 --> 00:24:58,690
South Boston the day after
Christmas on 1871.

422
00:24:59,690 --> 00:25:02,450
Two men were walking up the hill
when they heard a small whimper

423
00:25:02,610 --> 00:25:05,890
near the building, and as they
got closer it got louder and

424
00:25:05,890 --> 00:25:07,730
they realized it was definitely
a child.

425
00:25:08,890 --> 00:25:11,930
So here's your point where you
are allowed to skip.

426
00:25:12,930 --> 00:25:17,490
Skip off, because there's a lot
more victims that come after

427
00:25:17,490 --> 00:25:20,250
this.
And it's a lot of torture.

428
00:25:20,690 --> 00:25:22,090
Press this button to skip the
ad.

429
00:25:25,610 --> 00:25:27,770
When the men into the building,
they were shocked.

430
00:25:28,410 --> 00:25:32,730
The four year old boy was tied
to the center beam of a building

431
00:25:32,730 --> 00:25:36,090
and he was hanging.
And the only way I can explain

432
00:25:36,090 --> 00:25:43,490
this is if you've seen any movie
about slavery in America, it

433
00:25:43,530 --> 00:25:46,890
looks a lot like it.
The way it's described is a lot

434
00:25:46,890 --> 00:25:49,790
like.
He's he was half stripped.

435
00:25:50,350 --> 00:25:54,790
He just had his pants on.
He was tied by his hands to the

436
00:25:54,790 --> 00:25:57,950
beam so tight that they were
turning purple.

437
00:25:59,430 --> 00:26:05,270
His he himself was hypothermic
because it was winter and he's

438
00:26:05,270 --> 00:26:10,630
four.
They had no idea how long he'd

439
00:26:10,630 --> 00:26:13,910
been there and when they walked
around because I guess he was

440
00:26:13,910 --> 00:26:16,990
facing the doorway when they
walked around him to cut him

441
00:26:16,990 --> 00:26:21,080
down.
His back was covered in blood

442
00:26:21,120 --> 00:26:24,600
and welts and cuts, and the
worst part is, it wasn't even

443
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:26,720
that he'd been hit with like a
belt or a whip, but it was

444
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:30,040
something that was.
It was an undetermined, blunt

445
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,560
object.
So this would have been an

446
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:37,120
extensive beating for it to
break the skin goodness.

447
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,720
A board or something, anyway.
The community was.

448
00:26:44,050 --> 00:26:47,690
Upset, the police filed the
report and they attempted to

449
00:26:47,690 --> 00:26:50,570
talk to William.
But he was four and he was in

450
00:26:50,570 --> 00:26:55,250
such bad shape and he was just
so scared that he couldn't tell

451
00:26:55,250 --> 00:26:57,970
them anything about the person
who took him into the cabin.

452
00:26:59,130 --> 00:27:02,970
Everybody just kind of went OK.
Hopefully this was just an

453
00:27:02,970 --> 00:27:05,370
isolated incident and we won't
hear about this anymore.

454
00:27:07,050 --> 00:27:11,200
About two months later, it's
February of 1972. 7 year old boy

455
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:13,920
named Tracy Harden is Jesse's
next victim.

456
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:19,840
He lures him to the same hill
and the same building where he

457
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:23,360
abused William Payne, promising
that he'd be able to see the

458
00:27:23,360 --> 00:27:26,800
soldiers on the hill.
What soldiers?

459
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:35,400
I'm not entirely sure this was
1872, so.

460
00:27:37,130 --> 00:27:40,850
I'm trying to remember what war
was happening at this time.

461
00:27:44,810 --> 00:27:46,730
I did not do good enough
research on that.

462
00:27:46,730 --> 00:27:50,610
My bad.
But once they were alone, Jesse

463
00:27:50,610 --> 00:27:54,690
bound, Tracy beat him.
This time he used to switch as

464
00:27:54,690 --> 00:28:00,130
well as a blunt object.
But a lot more must have gone on

465
00:28:00,130 --> 00:28:03,930
because when Tracy Harden was
found, his front teeth had been

466
00:28:03,930 --> 00:28:07,300
knocked out.
Both his eyes were black and his

467
00:28:07,300 --> 00:28:11,220
nose was broken.
He had also been stripped and

468
00:28:11,220 --> 00:28:15,740
had deep welts on his back, and
Tracy could only tell the

469
00:28:15,740 --> 00:28:18,340
police.
That had been an older boy with

470
00:28:18,340 --> 00:28:22,140
dark hair who had threatened to
cut off his Pevis if he told

471
00:28:22,140 --> 00:28:24,020
anybody anything.
His Pevis.

472
00:28:24,220 --> 00:28:27,340
His penis, she said.
Pevis.

473
00:28:28,380 --> 00:28:34,580
Listen, the police couldn't do
much with only a hair color.

474
00:28:36,730 --> 00:28:39,090
But I think anybody with even a
little bit of understanding of

475
00:28:39,090 --> 00:28:41,530
criminology knows that this
isn't where this is going to

476
00:28:41,530 --> 00:28:45,730
end.
He's working on about a 30 to 60

477
00:28:45,730 --> 00:28:48,970
day cycle at this point.
So two more months.

478
00:28:49,010 --> 00:28:53,650
It's spring 1872.
He attacks an 18 year old named

479
00:28:53,650 --> 00:28:57,730
Robert Robert Mayer.
He lures Robert by telling him

480
00:28:57,730 --> 00:29:00,850
he's going to promises him a
trip to the Barnum and Bailey

481
00:29:00,850 --> 00:29:03,850
Circus.
He takes the boy again to the

482
00:29:03,850 --> 00:29:07,050
powder.
Horn Hill Cabin strips him,

483
00:29:07,090 --> 00:29:11,050
beats him with a stick.
This time he made Robert repeat

484
00:29:11,170 --> 00:29:13,730
curse words while he was beating
him.

485
00:29:14,210 --> 00:29:19,370
Okay, question 2 questions.
It's probably the same question

486
00:29:19,370 --> 00:29:21,970
I have while I'm gonna tell you
about the next four attacks.

487
00:29:21,970 --> 00:29:25,410
Okay first.
Question which is how old was he

488
00:29:25,610 --> 00:29:28,570
at this time?
He's 12 and he's, you said an 18

489
00:29:28,570 --> 00:29:29,570
year.
Old No.

490
00:29:29,650 --> 00:29:32,970
An 8 year old so.
The boys ate Okay, don't you

491
00:29:32,970 --> 00:29:33,650
say?
Eating Okay.

492
00:29:34,090 --> 00:29:38,370
All right, Goodness.
Why is no one perhaps

493
00:29:38,370 --> 00:29:40,450
patrolling?
Why are you watching the hill?

494
00:29:40,490 --> 00:29:42,330
Yes.
Yes, I absolutely have that

495
00:29:42,330 --> 00:29:45,610
question myself.
I'm like they're all happening

496
00:29:45,850 --> 00:29:48,330
at the same location after the
first.

497
00:29:48,650 --> 00:29:51,250
It's an abandoned prop.
Do you think maybe we should

498
00:29:51,330 --> 00:29:53,770
take it down?
Yeah, like after the first one I

499
00:29:53,770 --> 00:29:56,530
would have been had someone like
routinely.

500
00:29:56,530 --> 00:29:58,650
Like maybe the first one, we
thought it was a one off, but

501
00:29:58,650 --> 00:30:01,330
the second one we now have a
still, it's an abandoned place.

502
00:30:01,330 --> 00:30:03,050
You never know what's going to
happen in there.

503
00:30:03,050 --> 00:30:05,210
So I definitely have someone
patrolling the area.

504
00:30:06,530 --> 00:30:07,690
Nope, Nope.
And we're going to.

505
00:30:07,690 --> 00:30:09,930
There's more attacks that
happened on powder who are now.

506
00:30:09,930 --> 00:30:15,650
Like I said, when Robert was
found, he told the police that

507
00:30:15,650 --> 00:30:23,090
his attacker touched himself
during the beating and after

508
00:30:23,690 --> 00:30:29,590
Jesse reached completion.
He untied the boy, set him free

509
00:30:29,590 --> 00:30:31,550
and told him he'd kill him if he
told anybody.

510
00:30:34,630 --> 00:30:38,950
The police are facing just a
horde of angry parents, so they

511
00:30:38,950 --> 00:30:41,310
began A manhunt.
After the third attack, they

512
00:30:41,310 --> 00:30:44,470
started by questioning hundreds
of brunette teen boys from

513
00:30:44,470 --> 00:30:46,670
Boston, but that didn't get them
anywhere.

514
00:30:48,670 --> 00:30:51,510
I assumed Jesse was probably
questioned during this time and

515
00:30:51,510 --> 00:30:55,070
it didn't raise any red flags,
so with no help from the cops.

516
00:30:55,460 --> 00:30:58,060
Parents turned to trying to be
more strict with their children,

517
00:30:58,340 --> 00:31:01,900
telling them to stop speaking to
strangers entirely, and a rumor

518
00:31:01,900 --> 00:31:05,820
spread that.
Somehow a rumor spread that the

519
00:31:05,900 --> 00:31:10,580
the person who was doing the
attacks had red hair with a red

520
00:31:10,580 --> 00:31:16,700
beard, which didn't help anybody
find anybody.

521
00:31:17,020 --> 00:31:23,260
Jesse Pomeroy, No.
So his fourth attack happened in

522
00:31:23,260 --> 00:31:28,380
mid-july of 19 of 1872.
He lured A7 year old to powder

523
00:31:28,380 --> 00:31:32,540
Hornhill with the promise of
money if the boy did some

524
00:31:32,540 --> 00:31:35,700
errands for him.
This assault was the same as

525
00:31:35,700 --> 00:31:39,660
before.
After Jesse achieved an orgasm,

526
00:31:39,660 --> 00:31:41,780
he left the boy in the cabin and
escaped.

527
00:31:42,780 --> 00:31:50,450
So were the were was the the
sexual nature added after the

528
00:31:50,450 --> 00:31:53,730
second one. 3rd and 4th attacks
have a sexual element to him

529
00:31:54,330 --> 00:31:57,330
that's weird and he's only
attacking younger children.

530
00:31:57,410 --> 00:32:01,090
Only younger boys.
Locally, they put out a $500

531
00:32:01,090 --> 00:32:03,690
reward for information that
would lead to the arrest of this

532
00:32:03,690 --> 00:32:06,170
fiendish boy.
As the paper referred to him,

533
00:32:06,810 --> 00:32:10,530
vigilantes began patrolling the
streets of Chelsea, trying to

534
00:32:10,530 --> 00:32:15,610
find who was responsible.
So at this point Ruth and

535
00:32:15,610 --> 00:32:17,930
Pomeroy moves her family away
from Chelsea.

536
00:32:18,250 --> 00:32:21,960
Dad is gone from the picture.
Over to a less expensive

537
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:24,840
neighborhood across from Chelsea
Creek and South Boston.

538
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:30,440
Now, some of my sources think
that she had an idea that Jesse

539
00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:35,080
might be committing these
crimes, probably because they

540
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:37,880
mirrored their abuse that she'd
seen her husband commit.

541
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,920
But it's just as likely that she
moved because it might have been

542
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:45,120
cheaper.
But my thought is that she had

543
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:48,360
to realize as soon as she moved
to South Boston.

544
00:32:48,910 --> 00:32:53,390
That the boy fiend attacks begin
happening in South Boston too.

545
00:32:53,710 --> 00:32:57,670
Like that's just too much of A
coincidence, but I suppose a

546
00:32:57,670 --> 00:32:59,190
mother's love is blinding,
right?

547
00:33:02,070 --> 00:33:05,910
His next victim is 7 year old
George Pratt, who was walking

548
00:33:05,910 --> 00:33:08,270
alone on the South Boston shore
looking for treasure.

549
00:33:08,670 --> 00:33:11,350
Jesse offered him $0.25 to do an
errand run.

550
00:33:12,670 --> 00:33:17,110
This time, when George was bound
and tied, Jesse began enacting a

551
00:33:17,110 --> 00:33:21,670
weird fantasy.
And he began berating George for

552
00:33:21,670 --> 00:33:28,310
telling Lyle lies while beating
him with a leather belt, though

553
00:33:28,310 --> 00:33:34,670
this one escalated a bit.
Jesse bit a chunk of the boy's

554
00:33:34,670 --> 00:33:38,390
cheek off and cut George with
his fingernails.

555
00:33:38,750 --> 00:33:42,230
Then he took a sewing needle and
began stabbing his body.

556
00:33:42,870 --> 00:33:46,390
He tried to pry open George's
eye with a needle to stab him in

557
00:33:46,390 --> 00:33:50,590
the eye, but the boy rolled like
over on his stomach and like

558
00:33:50,590 --> 00:33:54,190
shoved his face into the ground.
Jesse bit him one more time on

559
00:33:54,190 --> 00:33:55,950
his left butt cheek and ran
away.

560
00:33:55,950 --> 00:33:58,630
Oh my goodness, this sound like
this story sounds familiar.

561
00:33:58,750 --> 00:34:00,070
Just like.
That's OK.

562
00:34:01,590 --> 00:34:04,910
The police rounded up every
feebleminded young person they

563
00:34:04,910 --> 00:34:07,150
could.
They did lineups, but none of

564
00:34:07,150 --> 00:34:09,429
the victims could pick their
attacker out.

565
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:15,080
The city was, I mean, Boston was
full of like just a righteous

566
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:18,000
rage and indignation, and the
vigilantes increased their

567
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:20,880
patrols.
Less than a month after George

568
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:25,280
Pratt Jesse kidnapped 6 year old
Harry Austin, who he stripped

569
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:29,159
and beat just like the others.
However, after he beat this

570
00:34:29,159 --> 00:34:33,159
child, he then took out a pocket
knife and stabbed him in the

571
00:34:33,159 --> 00:34:37,760
back and under his shoulders.
He was going to cut off.

572
00:34:38,219 --> 00:34:41,340
The young boy's penis.
But he got spooked and he ran

573
00:34:41,340 --> 00:34:44,739
away.
This is just escalating.

574
00:34:44,780 --> 00:34:48,139
It is because six days after
that, he attacked Joseph

575
00:34:48,139 --> 00:34:51,060
Kennedy, who was seven.
He took him to the marshes and

576
00:34:51,060 --> 00:34:54,219
beat him.
He made Joseph recite an

577
00:34:54,219 --> 00:34:58,420
explicit version of the Lord's
Prayer while stabbing him.

578
00:34:59,740 --> 00:35:03,020
Then, when Kennedy stopped
moving, he cut his face.

579
00:35:03,470 --> 00:35:06,230
Dragged him to the beach and
washed his wounds with salt

580
00:35:06,230 --> 00:35:09,510
water.
I guess just to be like an

581
00:35:09,510 --> 00:35:15,470
asshole because I'm like, geez
dude, you're just rubbing salt.

582
00:35:15,830 --> 00:35:20,510
In the wound, literally.
I know six days after that, a 5

583
00:35:20,510 --> 00:35:23,910
year old boy was found tied to a
train post near railroad tracks

584
00:35:24,190 --> 00:35:25,590
who have been stripped and
beaten.

585
00:35:26,230 --> 00:35:29,310
When Jesse put the knife to the
boy's throat, he was spotted by

586
00:35:29,310 --> 00:35:33,510
a rail worker and ran away.
This boy was finally able to

587
00:35:33,510 --> 00:35:36,910
give the police some details and
he told the cops that his tacker

588
00:35:36,910 --> 00:35:40,390
was a big boy with an eyeball
that looked like a marble.

589
00:35:42,670 --> 00:35:44,790
So this point now it's
escalating to the point where

590
00:35:44,790 --> 00:35:49,070
now they're happening weekly and
the boy with the marble eye was

591
00:35:49,070 --> 00:35:52,030
definitely on a path to murder
because he, I mean he was

592
00:35:52,030 --> 00:35:54,470
threatening to cut the throat of
the most recent victim.

593
00:35:55,110 --> 00:35:58,430
So on September 21st of 1872,
the police came to Jesse's

594
00:35:58,430 --> 00:36:01,580
classroom.
While they were doing a full

595
00:36:01,580 --> 00:36:07,580
classroom by classroom search of
the entire city, but Joseph

596
00:36:07,580 --> 00:36:11,540
Kennedy was so distressed that
he was unable to identify Jesse.

597
00:36:13,020 --> 00:36:15,700
Now here's an interesting thing.
But he's he's the only one with

598
00:36:15,700 --> 00:36:17,500
the marble eyeball.
He is, he is.

599
00:36:17,500 --> 00:36:25,540
But it's it's beyond the point
because just things happen for a

600
00:36:25,540 --> 00:36:27,540
reason and you never understand
why.

601
00:36:28,060 --> 00:36:30,540
We always talk about, like,
serial killers and offenders

602
00:36:30,540 --> 00:36:32,700
like doing things to get
themselves caught, right?

603
00:36:33,900 --> 00:36:38,540
For some reason, that afternoon,
Jesse decided on his way home

604
00:36:38,540 --> 00:36:41,660
from school, he was going to
stop by the South Boston police

605
00:36:41,660 --> 00:36:45,660
station.
He didn't know that Joseph

606
00:36:45,660 --> 00:36:48,260
Kennedy was still there, being
questioned by the police.

607
00:36:48,700 --> 00:36:52,220
And as soon as Jesse saw Joseph,
he like, turned around.

608
00:36:52,540 --> 00:36:55,020
But Joseph saw him and
immediately started going like,

609
00:36:55,060 --> 00:36:56,900
that's him.
That's the one.

610
00:36:57,980 --> 00:37:01,460
And he took off running, and the
police grabbed him within a

611
00:37:01,460 --> 00:37:06,820
block and put him in prison.
They kept him there for hours,

612
00:37:06,820 --> 00:37:10,460
kind of like in the dark.
And they pulled him out.

613
00:37:10,980 --> 00:37:16,660
And then they threatened him
with 100 years in prison, and he

614
00:37:16,700 --> 00:37:20,820
broke down and confessed.
That's the one thing you can

615
00:37:21,300 --> 00:37:23,820
threaten the child with.
They'll believe you and they

616
00:37:23,820 --> 00:37:27,160
will believe you.
I'm going to put you in jail for

617
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:29,600
100 years if you don't tell me
what you did 100 years.

618
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:31,760
That's affinity.
Oh my God, it's my whole life.

619
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:33,480
Yeah, it is.
But anyway.

620
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:38,320
The next day he was taken to the
main Boston City jail.

621
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:40,920
They brought the other boys
who'd been attacked, who all

622
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:43,280
identified him.
They took him to a magistrate

623
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:46,360
and all the victims recounted
their abuse for the court.

624
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:50,760
His mother took the stand to
defend him, crying and saying he

625
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:54,480
was a good boy who was so
obedient and worked really hard.

626
00:37:54,970 --> 00:37:57,050
She left out the part where he
killed her birds.

627
00:37:57,650 --> 00:38:01,210
And you're just going to ignore
the fact that all these boys are

628
00:38:01,370 --> 00:38:03,810
accusing him all these separate
times?

629
00:38:06,170 --> 00:38:10,210
Jesse testified, too, and he
simply said quietly, I couldn't

630
00:38:10,210 --> 00:38:12,450
help myself while he looked at
the floor.

631
00:38:14,050 --> 00:38:17,530
The juvenile justice magistrate
ordered Jesse to go to the House

632
00:38:17,530 --> 00:38:20,690
of Reformation, As in
Westborough until his 18th

633
00:38:20,690 --> 00:38:23,700
birthday.
Newspapers reported that both

634
00:38:23,700 --> 00:38:26,780
Jesse and his mother cried as he
was led away in handcuffs.

635
00:38:28,740 --> 00:38:32,420
So back in the 1800s, reform
schools were just how they dealt

636
00:38:32,420 --> 00:38:35,860
with youth offenders, and reform
schools were about hard labor,

637
00:38:35,860 --> 00:38:39,300
discipline and teaching the
child who was their vocation.

638
00:38:40,980 --> 00:38:43,980
Now I I have some issues with
the Westboro House of

639
00:38:43,980 --> 00:38:48,420
Reformation because it was an
allages school and it was for

640
00:38:48,420 --> 00:38:52,620
kids convicted of any crime.
And also parents could send

641
00:38:52,620 --> 00:38:56,340
their kids there if your kid was
too much to handle.

642
00:38:57,980 --> 00:39:03,540
So we have a whole slew of
criminal activity here and non

643
00:39:03,540 --> 00:39:07,940
criminal activity.
So obviously this is the kind of

644
00:39:07,940 --> 00:39:13,380
place where things are pretty
jacked up and it just sounds

645
00:39:13,380 --> 00:39:18,300
like the United States.
Well, you know what though?

646
00:39:18,340 --> 00:39:19,820
Not every state is like that
because.

647
00:39:20,210 --> 00:39:24,730
In Pennsylvania, we do house
prisoners based on their kind of

648
00:39:24,730 --> 00:39:27,530
crime.
You're not going to find someone

649
00:39:27,530 --> 00:39:30,130
who's murdered people with
someone who has like a lower

650
00:39:30,210 --> 00:39:34,490
tier drug approach.
Because near us Camp Hill Prison

651
00:39:34,490 --> 00:39:38,850
is where they do the process of
like psychologically testing

652
00:39:38,850 --> 00:39:41,450
them and figuring out if they
can be in like certain

653
00:39:41,450 --> 00:39:43,810
populations.
Like that happens down the road.

654
00:39:46,380 --> 00:39:47,780
But they didn't do that at all
here.

655
00:39:47,780 --> 00:39:50,060
It was just a free for all.
Everybody can come to this

656
00:39:50,060 --> 00:39:51,740
place.
If you don't want to go to

657
00:39:51,740 --> 00:39:53,740
school, set in the reform
school.

658
00:39:54,140 --> 00:39:57,340
You tortured 7 boys.
You also go to reform school

659
00:39:57,340 --> 00:40:00,020
like, just not people who should
be in the same room with each

660
00:40:00,020 --> 00:40:01,700
other.
Just maximum security reform

661
00:40:01,740 --> 00:40:04,780
school.
And it it was a pretty bad

662
00:40:04,780 --> 00:40:06,780
place.
And 100 years later, scholars

663
00:40:06,780 --> 00:40:08,900
have debated whether it reformed
really anybody.

664
00:40:09,020 --> 00:40:12,100
Probably not.
Children offenders were made to

665
00:40:12,100 --> 00:40:14,340
work on tasks like making brass
nails.

666
00:40:14,740 --> 00:40:18,260
Making chairs, silver plating,
and then they had four hours of

667
00:40:18,260 --> 00:40:21,060
regular class work.
And then the discipline style

668
00:40:21,060 --> 00:40:25,260
was very much like the military.
On the surface this might seem

669
00:40:25,260 --> 00:40:27,700
like a good way to deal with a
misbehaving child, and

670
00:40:27,700 --> 00:40:30,620
definitely more humane than a
lot of adult prisons at that

671
00:40:30,620 --> 00:40:33,980
time.
But in any sort of closed

672
00:40:34,020 --> 00:40:39,260
facility where you have child
deviancy, it always is a little

673
00:40:39,260 --> 00:40:41,500
bit like Darwin.
Kill or be killed.

674
00:40:41,980 --> 00:40:45,760
Eat or be eaten.
And it's especially bad because

675
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:48,680
most of them weren't there for
the same kind of things, like

676
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:51,960
Jesse Pomeroy.
They were there for nonviolent

677
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:56,320
offenses like shoplifting or
stubbornness, which was is an

678
00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:02,520
actual thing I found.
Send your kid to reform school

679
00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:06,040
for being stubborn or you can
not.

680
00:41:06,610 --> 00:41:11,370
All I can say is thank God I was
born in 1987 and not 1887

681
00:41:11,890 --> 00:41:14,410
because I would have been sent
to reform school.

682
00:41:17,130 --> 00:41:24,050
I was a pain in the arse.
But Jesse gets there.

683
00:41:24,050 --> 00:41:26,330
He realizes right away that if
he wants to get released before

684
00:41:26,330 --> 00:41:29,210
his 18th birthday, he has to
show them that he's reformed.

685
00:41:29,970 --> 00:41:32,890
His records show that he is a
model inmate.

686
00:41:33,730 --> 00:41:35,650
And I find this really
interesting because there's

687
00:41:35,650 --> 00:41:39,010
another serial killer who also
went to a juvenile facility and

688
00:41:39,010 --> 00:41:45,850
was a model inmate, and his name
is Ed Kemper, also someone who

689
00:41:45,850 --> 00:41:51,050
is particularly brutal.
It just lends me to believe that

690
00:41:51,050 --> 00:41:54,130
Jesse had a similar kind of
pathology and an ability to

691
00:41:54,130 --> 00:41:59,210
control himself and learn from
the prison system, which is not

692
00:41:59,210 --> 00:42:03,820
a good thing.
Now, Jesse wasn't really teased

693
00:42:03,820 --> 00:42:06,180
here.
The older boys were rude, but

694
00:42:06,180 --> 00:42:09,900
the younger boys knew why he was
there and avoided him entirely.

695
00:42:10,820 --> 00:42:12,300
Oh.
Yeah, of course he avoided.

696
00:42:12,300 --> 00:42:16,860
Now, they part of the discipline
here was that they would flog

697
00:42:16,860 --> 00:42:21,260
you if you got in trouble.
He avoided all of that.

698
00:42:22,700 --> 00:42:26,100
But he was interested in
watching other children get in.

699
00:42:26,100 --> 00:42:28,190
Trouble.
Did Was he?

700
00:42:28,230 --> 00:42:30,990
Was he like a tattletale?
Oh, wait till you find out he

701
00:42:30,990 --> 00:42:33,150
got listen.
So he was originally assigned to

702
00:42:33,150 --> 00:42:36,070
make chairs, but after like
shortly after that they

703
00:42:36,070 --> 00:42:37,870
realized, Oh no, he's such a
good boy.

704
00:42:38,230 --> 00:42:41,750
They removed that and they gave
him a job as a whole monitor,

705
00:42:42,390 --> 00:42:44,950
so.
He was a professional snitch.

706
00:42:45,070 --> 00:42:49,070
No, no, no, no.
And tasked with maintaining

707
00:42:49,070 --> 00:42:52,470
order in his dorm and pretty
much snitching on the other boys

708
00:42:52,470 --> 00:42:53,910
in the dorm.
Not this kid.

709
00:42:54,110 --> 00:42:59,080
No, absolutely not.
Listen, there was one point in

710
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:02,920
the history while he was there
that someone left an unlocked

711
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:05,960
door and about half of the kids
ran away.

712
00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:09,160
Jesse did not.
What do you mean?

713
00:43:09,240 --> 00:43:12,720
So there was like a almost like
a prison escape, but for the

714
00:43:12,720 --> 00:43:14,640
children.
Someone didn't lock one of the

715
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:17,080
outer doors and those kids
escaped.

716
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:19,560
Like half of them ran away and
Jesse stayed.

717
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:21,600
And stayed because he didn't
want to get in trouble.

718
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:25,040
He wanted to get out early or,
you know, or he wanted to keep

719
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:27,490
his little.
That is a power or something

720
00:43:27,570 --> 00:43:30,610
like that.
There was one blemish on his

721
00:43:30,610 --> 00:43:34,010
record that was written about
Once one of his teachers asked

722
00:43:34,010 --> 00:43:37,250
for help killing a snake outside
of their classroom in the back

723
00:43:37,250 --> 00:43:40,890
garden.
Jesse very happily helped her.

724
00:43:41,250 --> 00:43:45,050
Not only did he kill it with a
stick, but he beat the snake

725
00:43:45,090 --> 00:43:48,850
until it was nothing more than a
pile of blood and bones for a

726
00:43:48,850 --> 00:43:51,530
snake.
You had to kill her.

727
00:43:51,530 --> 00:43:52,970
You could just leave it.
Exactly.

728
00:43:52,970 --> 00:43:56,860
Poor Danger Noodle.
But that's because he loved to

729
00:43:56,860 --> 00:44:00,060
kill things.
So he got a chance to kill

730
00:44:00,060 --> 00:44:05,540
things and help.
So while he's in the reform

731
00:44:05,540 --> 00:44:09,700
school, his mother is back home
in Boston launching a campaign

732
00:44:09,700 --> 00:44:12,380
to get him released.
She's like he's too young to be

733
00:44:12,380 --> 00:44:14,780
in prison.
He he's not the kind of like

734
00:44:14,860 --> 00:44:16,820
he's too young to commit those
kind of crimes.

735
00:44:17,020 --> 00:44:19,540
The police obviously have
arrested the wrong person.

736
00:44:19,910 --> 00:44:22,790
She wrote letters to the reform
school to anybody who would help

737
00:44:22,790 --> 00:44:24,830
her.
She pointed out that he was had

738
00:44:24,830 --> 00:44:28,430
been coerced into confessing by
the police, which is true,

739
00:44:28,550 --> 00:44:31,750
because they did leave him in
the darkness for hours and

740
00:44:31,750 --> 00:44:34,670
threatened him.
And he should have had a lawyer,

741
00:44:34,910 --> 00:44:37,470
or at least his mother should
have been allowed there while

742
00:44:37,470 --> 00:44:39,950
they were questioning him.
So she wasn't wrong.

743
00:44:39,950 --> 00:44:41,190
She she was right about that.
But.

744
00:44:41,390 --> 00:44:43,270
They did break the law to get
the confession.

745
00:44:43,350 --> 00:44:47,880
But ma'am, ma'am, how long has
your son been in this reform

746
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:48,800
school?
First of all, it's not even

747
00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:49,920
prison.
It's a reform school.

748
00:44:50,720 --> 00:44:53,680
Not even that long.
How long was he in there?

749
00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:56,120
I'll tell you how long he ends
up there, but like, she started

750
00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:57,440
this immediately.
Okay.

751
00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:01,440
But God, I was gonna try to make
a point like if he was in there

752
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:07,000
for like, I don't know, a month
or so, then have all these like

753
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:08,120
crime.
Stuff.

754
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:10,180
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
The crimes?

755
00:45:10,500 --> 00:45:14,780
Yes, the Boston fiend stopped.
Oh, I wonder why it stopped is

756
00:45:14,780 --> 00:45:18,500
because they caught the right
person and he's in reform school

757
00:45:18,500 --> 00:45:21,140
now.
Her letters really didn't help

758
00:45:21,140 --> 00:45:23,460
much.
Jesse actually helped himself.

759
00:45:24,780 --> 00:45:26,460
A state investigator visited
Ruth.

760
00:45:26,780 --> 00:45:29,700
They determined that her home
wasn't a danger and that his

761
00:45:29,700 --> 00:45:32,140
mother wasn't the reason why he
was a total psychopath.

762
00:45:32,900 --> 00:45:36,220
They checked out his brother
Charles, who was upstanding and

763
00:45:36,220 --> 00:45:37,980
hardworking.
Charles had a paper route.

764
00:45:38,420 --> 00:45:41,940
And he ran a newspaper stand
outside of his mother's dress

765
00:45:41,940 --> 00:45:44,660
shop.
Yeah, Charles was a

766
00:45:44,660 --> 00:45:47,340
overachiever.
And both Charles and Ruth

767
00:45:47,340 --> 00:45:50,300
promised that if Jesse was
released early, he'd come and

768
00:45:50,300 --> 00:45:53,300
work at the newsstand and at the
dress shop.

769
00:45:53,660 --> 00:45:55,380
And Ruth promised to keep an eye
on him.

770
00:45:56,380 --> 00:46:00,900
The investigator decided that
since Jesse's dad had left and

771
00:46:00,900 --> 00:46:04,060
he'd had so much free time.
He had been allowed to just

772
00:46:04,060 --> 00:46:07,700
drift, and he must have been
influenced by outside forces.

773
00:46:08,260 --> 00:46:11,500
That's why he started out
molesting children.

774
00:46:12,700 --> 00:46:14,980
Even the police in Boston were
forgiving of him.

775
00:46:16,100 --> 00:46:20,980
The captain told the papers that
it would be good to give Jesse a

776
00:46:20,980 --> 00:46:26,620
chance to redeem himself.
So less than 18 months into a

777
00:46:26,620 --> 00:46:30,140
fiveyear sentence, he was
released.

778
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:34,920
And set loose on a public that
had forgotten what happened.

779
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:39,040
Wait, wait, Wait 18 months?
18 months Okay well into a five

780
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:41,200
year sentence.
He was supposed to be there from

781
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:43,800
13 to 18, right?
Okay.

782
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:46,840
So all this stops, ma'am.
Okay.

783
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:48,080
I'm just, I'm just gonna say,
well.

784
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:52,080
Listen, Ruth is a mess.
Ruth continues to be a mess.

785
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:55,600
Just you wait.
Just you wait to see how messy

786
00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:58,120
Ruth is.
I'm just saying, ma'am, all this

787
00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:01,280
stuff stopped for 18 months.
Through denial, complete and

788
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:03,400
total denied while he was in
reform school.

789
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:06,880
And I bet you it starts right
back up after he gets out.

790
00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:09,640
Coincidence, I think.
It's worse.

791
00:47:10,070 --> 00:47:11,910
Okay, I'm gonna stop
interrupting you.

792
00:47:11,910 --> 00:47:14,790
Continue over your story.
Your horrible story.

793
00:47:14,910 --> 00:47:17,510
Well, the worst thing that for
me here is that no one warned

794
00:47:17,510 --> 00:47:20,910
the neighbors or even his past
victims and their families that

795
00:47:20,910 --> 00:47:22,150
he was being released.
Oh, see?

796
00:47:22,150 --> 00:47:23,430
No, you're fucked.
Up.

797
00:47:23,430 --> 00:47:26,630
Well, normally if someone
commits a crime against you when

798
00:47:26,630 --> 00:47:29,790
they're released, like the state
sends you a letter and says.

799
00:47:30,340 --> 00:47:32,620
This person who did such and
such thing to you as being

800
00:47:32,620 --> 00:47:37,860
released from prison, but I
that's now I and on top of not

801
00:47:37,860 --> 00:47:43,500
not only just the PTSD from like
having like just the thought of

802
00:47:43,500 --> 00:47:48,300
that person getting out and then
also fearing for your life that

803
00:47:48,300 --> 00:47:53,540
they might come in reactor and
revenge on you so.

804
00:47:54,220 --> 00:47:58,420
Well, this was an oversight that
made it very easy for him to

805
00:47:58,420 --> 00:47:59,980
find a new victim when he got
back.

806
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:09,280
So March 18th, 1874, six weeks
after coming home, Jesse opens

807
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:12,440
up his mother's shop and the
newsstand on the 300 block of

808
00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:18,360
Broadway in South Boston.
Another employee at the shop was

809
00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:21,960
a young boy about Jesse's age
showed up as the and he was as

810
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:24,800
Jesse was sleeping the store and
the two begin to talk.

811
00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:30,620
That boy is named Rudolph Carr.
As the two talked, 10 year old

812
00:48:30,620 --> 00:48:33,620
little girl named Katie Curran
entered the store asking to buy

813
00:48:33,620 --> 00:48:36,220
a notebook.
She had a new teacher and was

814
00:48:36,220 --> 00:48:39,140
really and had gotten permission
to run to the store just before

815
00:48:39,140 --> 00:48:42,100
school from her parents.
She was expected to be home by

816
00:48:42,180 --> 00:48:45,220
8:30 AM.
She'd already been to another

817
00:48:45,220 --> 00:48:48,260
shop and was told that they were
sold out.

818
00:48:48,940 --> 00:48:53,100
Jesse told her they had one, but
it had an ink stain on it and

819
00:48:53,100 --> 00:48:57,140
offered her a discount.
And then Jesse told Rudolph to

820
00:48:57,140 --> 00:49:01,900
go to the butcher shop to get
scraps to feed the cat, and he

821
00:49:01,900 --> 00:49:04,820
took Katie downstairs into the
basement to look at the

822
00:49:04,820 --> 00:49:11,260
inventory.
By the time she realized that

823
00:49:11,500 --> 00:49:14,620
they weren't going to look at
inventory, it was entirely too

824
00:49:14,620 --> 00:49:18,220
late.
Jesse later confessed that he

825
00:49:18,220 --> 00:49:21,660
choked her and cut her throat,
dragged her behind a water

826
00:49:21,660 --> 00:49:24,740
closet and put rocks and ash
over her body.

827
00:49:25,740 --> 00:49:30,100
His confession left out the fact
that her head was severed and by

828
00:49:30,100 --> 00:49:32,660
the time she was so bad, like by
the time she was found, she was

829
00:49:32,660 --> 00:49:35,020
so badly decomposed.
They couldn't tell all of her

830
00:49:35,020 --> 00:49:37,740
injuries.
But they were aware that he had

831
00:49:37,740 --> 00:49:41,100
spent a particular amount of
time stabbing her lower abdomen

832
00:49:41,660 --> 00:49:47,020
and groin area, and he was just
there, alone, so he had all the

833
00:49:47,060 --> 00:49:49,300
time in the world.
Well, not that much time.

834
00:49:49,300 --> 00:49:52,060
After killing her, he washed his
hands in the water closet and

835
00:49:52,060 --> 00:49:53,540
went upstairs to meet his
brother.

836
00:49:54,550 --> 00:50:01,830
So this happened in minutes.
Katie's disappearance caused

837
00:50:01,830 --> 00:50:03,830
concern.
Within an hour of her not

838
00:50:03,830 --> 00:50:06,070
returning home, her mother was
out looking for her.

839
00:50:06,910 --> 00:50:11,670
The local store clerk at a store
called Tobin's told her he'd

840
00:50:11,670 --> 00:50:15,430
sent her to Mrs. Pomeroy store
because they were out and

841
00:50:15,430 --> 00:50:20,230
Katie's mother freaked because
she had heard about the Pomeroy

842
00:50:20,230 --> 00:50:22,320
boy.
Who had just come back from a

843
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:24,320
facility and so she assumed the
worst.

844
00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:28,680
So she stopped by the police and
told them what she had been told

845
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:31,560
and the police told her Jesse's
not a danger to anyone anymore.

846
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:33,880
Plus he only hurt little boys in
the past.

847
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:37,960
Never heard a girl before.
And OK, there is some

848
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:43,800
criminology basis for this
because generally, generally

849
00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:46,640
they don't cross.
So if this is someone who's

850
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:50,120
getting some level of sexual
satisfaction from harming little

851
00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:54,440
boys, he's not going to get the
same sexual satisfaction from

852
00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:57,680
harming a girl.
However, he wasn't beating

853
00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:00,160
Katie.
No, he was getting off on the

854
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:01,680
murder here.
Killed her.

855
00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:03,720
He didn't beat her.
No, no, no, no, no, no.

856
00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:07,600
Yeah.
I mean, OK, let me let me just

857
00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:12,440
say her mom that smart lady.
Her mom's A was her mom's A1.

858
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:14,600
Mom was like, you sent her to
the pomeroid.

859
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:17,600
Why would you do that?
Yeah, Don't don't know that boy.

860
00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:19,320
I heard about that boy.
A little devil.

861
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:21,600
Hell no.
I don't know my daughter.

862
00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:25,840
Well, they sent her home.
They said Mrs. Curran home and

863
00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:29,080
they were really patronizing
about it too, saying like,

864
00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:31,080
listen, Katie probably just
wander off.

865
00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:33,080
We'll find her in a day and
bring her home.

866
00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:38,240
So a day later nothing happened
and.

867
00:51:39,010 --> 00:51:44,010
Rudolph Koer told the Currans
Katie had been in the store when

868
00:51:44,010 --> 00:51:48,530
he was there, so Mrs. Curran
went back to the police and she

869
00:51:48,530 --> 00:51:53,130
was like, so the boy who works
at the store with Jesse said

870
00:51:53,130 --> 00:51:56,730
that she was at the store and
the police were like, well, the

871
00:51:56,730 --> 00:51:59,570
corps boy is a known liar, but
we'll send a detective to look

872
00:51:59,570 --> 00:52:02,530
into it.
The detective went to the dress

873
00:52:02,530 --> 00:52:07,140
shop and was met.
With a rude Mrs. Pomeroy who

874
00:52:07,140 --> 00:52:10,140
felt that she had been harassed
by her neighbors and now she was

875
00:52:10,140 --> 00:52:12,620
being harassed by the cops.
Of course, because she has no

876
00:52:12,620 --> 00:52:15,660
idea what's actually going on,
she's never had any idea what's

877
00:52:15,660 --> 00:52:17,300
going on.
I mean, technically she has, she

878
00:52:17,340 --> 00:52:19,060
just said a denial.
But whatever.

879
00:52:19,940 --> 00:52:22,420
The detective walked around the
shop, didn't find anything

880
00:52:22,420 --> 00:52:24,060
because he didn't go into the
basement.

881
00:52:25,940 --> 00:52:28,380
Weeks went by.
Neighbors wondered if she's been

882
00:52:28,380 --> 00:52:30,660
shipped off to a convent by the
father.

883
00:52:30,980 --> 00:52:34,340
At the time, Boston was a very
like Protestant area and anti

884
00:52:34,340 --> 00:52:40,220
Catholic.
So then a more credible witness,

885
00:52:40,220 --> 00:52:42,700
more credible than the teenage
boy.

886
00:52:42,740 --> 00:52:46,300
Rudolph came forward and told
the cops that he thought he'd

887
00:52:46,300 --> 00:52:51,020
seen Katie being lured into a
wagon, and police closed the

888
00:52:51,020 --> 00:52:53,220
case, saying that she'd been
kidnapped.

889
00:52:57,030 --> 00:53:02,990
So we're wait a wagon, OK?
Before cars.

890
00:53:02,990 --> 00:53:04,710
Before cars.
Yeah, I know.

891
00:53:04,950 --> 00:53:09,990
OK, OK.
You're thinking it's a little

892
00:53:09,990 --> 00:53:10,830
more.
We're still.

893
00:53:10,830 --> 00:53:14,910
It's not even 1900 yet, honey.
Sure, I'm like.

894
00:53:15,790 --> 00:53:17,790
Like you like a wagon.
Like a red wagon?

895
00:53:17,870 --> 00:53:20,030
Yes, that's what I'm thinking.
Of you Really?

896
00:53:20,950 --> 00:53:24,260
Fuck, I was thinking, okay,
wait, someone was just pulling

897
00:53:24,260 --> 00:53:27,340
around a wagon and like, hey,
I'm going to go for a ride in my

898
00:53:27,380 --> 00:53:32,460
little red wagon?
Oh my God, Okay, I'm sorry.

899
00:53:32,460 --> 00:53:37,660
That's.
Great, So, and I literally wrote

900
00:53:37,660 --> 00:53:43,220
this in my notes, Jesse is back
on his bullshit and trying to

901
00:53:43,220 --> 00:53:47,860
lure small boys into abandoned
buildings in South Boston.

902
00:53:48,020 --> 00:53:48,820
Oh my God.
Okay.

903
00:53:49,630 --> 00:53:52,310
Most of the children are smart
enough to refuse his offers of

904
00:53:52,310 --> 00:53:54,430
candy, money or trips to the
circus.

905
00:53:55,390 --> 00:53:58,030
Unfortunately, there's one boy
who wasn't aware of who Jesse

906
00:53:58,030 --> 00:54:00,750
was because he was only five
years old and his name was Harry

907
00:54:00,750 --> 00:54:04,150
Field and he saw Jackie.
He saw Jesse walking, pretending

908
00:54:04,150 --> 00:54:09,550
to be lost, and he offered.
Jesse offered Harry 5 cent to

909
00:54:09,550 --> 00:54:13,430
help him get to Vernon St. and
the two walked hand in hand all

910
00:54:13,430 --> 00:54:16,270
over South Boston as Jesse
looked for a place to kill this

911
00:54:16,270 --> 00:54:18,790
boy.
Now Harry was lucky.

912
00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:23,320
Because a local teenager saw the
two of them walking and started

913
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:27,640
yelling at Jesse and pretty much
cussing him out in the street.

914
00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:31,960
The two of them get into an
argument and that teenager pulls

915
00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:37,040
their hands apart and tells
Henry run home smart.

916
00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:42,240
I'm like the same thing like.
That yes, that's like he was

917
00:54:42,240 --> 00:54:44,240
like why are you walking around
with a 5 year old?

918
00:54:44,240 --> 00:54:45,720
You're 14.
What's wrong with you?

919
00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:48,240
Hey, yo-yo, what are you doing
that little kid?

920
00:54:51,130 --> 00:54:56,610
So yeah, that that would be the
that random strange boy saved

921
00:54:56,610 --> 00:54:59,770
that child's life.
Thank you random little boy.

922
00:55:00,250 --> 00:55:06,650
OK, Also these these five year
olds just wandering around the

923
00:55:06,650 --> 00:55:07,610
streets?
South Awesome.

924
00:55:07,850 --> 00:55:11,370
I am just imagining because in
all of these cases, these little

925
00:55:11,370 --> 00:55:14,010
kids were just kind of walking
around their neighborhoods and

926
00:55:14,010 --> 00:55:16,930
so I'm just wondering if we just
lived in a different time.

927
00:55:17,500 --> 00:55:21,620
Over 100, like 130 years ago,
let me tell you where you could

928
00:55:21,620 --> 00:55:24,620
just chill and walk around, let
me tell you.

929
00:55:24,980 --> 00:55:28,020
I mean, OK, I will say that I
remember being like 8 years, 8

930
00:55:28,020 --> 00:55:30,500
or no even younger than that,
maybe 6.

931
00:55:31,180 --> 00:55:35,660
And there was a Chinese store on
the corner of my block, and my

932
00:55:35,660 --> 00:55:39,620
grandma gave me money and sent
me to like she gave me not only

933
00:55:39,620 --> 00:55:43,720
money, but she gave me a list.
And sent me to the store and I

934
00:55:43,720 --> 00:55:46,440
like, gave it to the lady at the
store.

935
00:55:46,680 --> 00:55:50,280
And the lady gave me a bag and I
walked back up the street.

936
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:56,210
So that was only in the 90s.
No, I mean it took us a while to

937
00:55:56,210 --> 00:55:59,250
my mom walk to the store by
itself.

938
00:55:59,250 --> 00:56:00,250
Well, see, it's completely
different.

939
00:56:00,250 --> 00:56:02,890
Because then when I got adopted,
like my people didn't let me go

940
00:56:02,890 --> 00:56:07,090
anywhere.
Yeah, not in this town like I'm

941
00:56:07,090 --> 00:56:08,890
just trying to.
It's just wild that it's like a

942
00:56:08,890 --> 00:56:10,610
six year old.
I was allowed to walk down like

943
00:56:10,610 --> 00:56:12,810
a street in Philadelphia
completely by myself.

944
00:56:13,170 --> 00:56:15,530
That's highly dangerous.
No, I would never do that.

945
00:56:15,530 --> 00:56:16,450
Now I can Philly.
Oh my God.

946
00:56:16,450 --> 00:56:18,370
But no.
Well, my grandma was kind of a

947
00:56:18,370 --> 00:56:20,890
crazy lady.
I'm just, I'm just saying like,

948
00:56:21,750 --> 00:56:24,870
I live in a very suburban
neighborhood, of course.

949
00:56:25,150 --> 00:56:34,630
And my kids, I got a 5 year old
and an almost 7 year old and I

950
00:56:34,630 --> 00:56:37,750
would never let them out of the
house without me.

951
00:56:37,950 --> 00:56:40,390
They're barely like they can go
into the backyard.

952
00:56:41,070 --> 00:56:42,510
I start to be in the backyard
with them.

953
00:56:42,830 --> 00:56:45,560
Absolutely.
Like, I can't and it's not

954
00:56:45,560 --> 00:56:47,280
fenced off, so of course I gotta
be out there with.

955
00:56:47,360 --> 00:56:50,080
I just would not let them out of
the house by themselves.

956
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:53,600
I totally vibe with you on that.
I feel that way too.

957
00:56:53,600 --> 00:56:59,200
Like, it's just it was a
different time and you're gonna

958
00:56:59,280 --> 00:57:01,920
you're gonna go for a loop
because the last victim was four

959
00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:03,480
years old.
I'm fucking tired.

960
00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:08,000
The last one tired of shit.
Won't talk about it anymore.

961
00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:11,040
Tell you the motherfucking kids
walking around these

962
00:57:11,040 --> 00:57:17,310
motherfucking streets.
So last victim was his name was

963
00:57:17,310 --> 00:57:20,990
Horace Milan and the Milans.
This is actually like a really

964
00:57:20,990 --> 00:57:23,710
twisted fact.
They moved into town and they

965
00:57:23,710 --> 00:57:32,670
actually moved across the street
from Katie Curran's family April

966
00:57:32,710 --> 00:57:36,070
of 1874.
The youngest Milan was four

967
00:57:36,070 --> 00:57:40,390
years old.
He's described in all of the

968
00:57:40,390 --> 00:57:46,380
sources that I have as angelic.
Yeah, Blonde hair, sweet face.

969
00:57:47,900 --> 00:57:55,780
And his mom had a I don't I she
liked to dress him up.

970
00:57:55,780 --> 00:58:02,180
Aw, very fancy clothing and see.
See, when I think of parents who

971
00:58:02,180 --> 00:58:03,780
do that, I think of them
treating their children like

972
00:58:03,780 --> 00:58:09,100
doll babies, I mean, But I like
to put I like buying dresses for

973
00:58:09,100 --> 00:58:13,310
Cassandra.
Yes, I mean, I I bought her

974
00:58:13,510 --> 00:58:17,270
ribbons for her hair.
But exactly.

975
00:58:17,310 --> 00:58:18,510
See, I mean she.
But she likes.

976
00:58:18,590 --> 00:58:21,270
She loves dresses, so.
I understandable.

977
00:58:21,270 --> 00:58:23,030
I also love dresses.
So do I.

978
00:58:23,030 --> 00:58:28,230
So there you go.
But I'm on horses.

979
00:58:28,230 --> 00:58:31,710
Last day alive, he wore a black
velvet hat with a golden tassel,

980
00:58:32,310 --> 00:58:35,110
a black and white jacket, and a
red and white checkered shirt

981
00:58:35,110 --> 00:58:37,390
with velvet trim and black
pants.

982
00:58:37,390 --> 00:58:39,990
That fucking drip.
Exactly.

983
00:58:40,870 --> 00:58:45,630
It was very fancy.
Now Horace loves sweets, and

984
00:58:45,630 --> 00:58:49,190
early one morning he pretty much
like grabbed a couple pennies

985
00:58:49,470 --> 00:58:51,830
from his mom's purse and like,
dipped out.

986
00:58:52,230 --> 00:58:55,150
I don't even think like she
knew.

987
00:58:55,230 --> 00:59:01,830
He just was like, I'm going to
the bakery and walking down the

988
00:59:01,830 --> 00:59:03,950
street.
He met Jessie Promoray, who

989
00:59:03,990 --> 00:59:08,270
offered to walk with him.
They went to the bakery and

990
00:59:08,270 --> 00:59:10,350
Horace bought a small cake for
himself.

991
00:59:10,850 --> 00:59:14,450
And then Jesse offered to show
him the harbor because he was

992
00:59:14,450 --> 00:59:17,730
new to Boston.
What a good friend to a four

993
00:59:17,730 --> 00:59:19,290
year old, 4 year old.
Remember that.

994
00:59:19,290 --> 00:59:20,810
Who cares?
He will care about that.

995
00:59:21,250 --> 00:59:23,770
Listen, all Horace cared about
was he had a cake in his hand

996
00:59:23,770 --> 00:59:25,330
and he was eating it.
Yeah, he's like.

997
00:59:25,330 --> 00:59:27,970
I'm pretty sure and we're gonna
find somewhere so I can sit down

998
00:59:27,970 --> 00:59:28,970
and eat this.
Cake, Pretty much.

999
00:59:28,970 --> 00:59:30,530
He's like we going to OK,
whatever.

1000
00:59:31,410 --> 00:59:34,610
But interestingly enough, many
witnesses saw them walking

1001
00:59:34,610 --> 00:59:37,490
together, and even one of them
reported that Jesse looked

1002
00:59:37,530 --> 00:59:40,380
weirdly excited.
Yeah, cuz he found a little

1003
00:59:40,420 --> 00:59:43,860
Angel he wanted to kill.
She testified later that his

1004
00:59:43,860 --> 00:59:47,780
expression was so odd that she
went inside to put her glasses

1005
00:59:47,780 --> 00:59:51,740
on to go look at him more
closely because it seemed weird.

1006
00:59:53,420 --> 00:59:56,300
A second witness saw them and
assumed that they were brothers

1007
00:59:56,300 --> 00:59:57,980
because they were walking hand
in hand.

1008
00:59:58,220 --> 01:00:00,500
This is about 40 minutes after
they left the bakery.

1009
01:00:00,820 --> 01:00:03,620
He wasn't sure why the boys were
out near the train checks, but

1010
01:00:03,620 --> 01:00:07,220
he kept his opinion to himself.
Bad, bad decision.

1011
01:00:07,810 --> 01:00:11,170
Then they wandered past an older
boy named Robert Benson who was

1012
01:00:11,170 --> 01:00:15,690
digging clams, that boy
testified, and remembered

1013
01:00:15,690 --> 01:00:20,370
thinking that the little boy was
too nicely dressed to be walking

1014
01:00:20,370 --> 01:00:24,570
around like the muddy marshes.
Robert didn't actually know who

1015
01:00:24,570 --> 01:00:28,130
Jesse was, and so he wasn't
suspicious like the other people

1016
01:00:28,130 --> 01:00:34,730
in South Boston were.
Also, while they were talking to

1017
01:00:34,730 --> 01:00:39,050
Robert, Jesse heard a gunshot.
And he was like, what's that?

1018
01:00:39,050 --> 01:00:42,770
And they're like, oh, there's
some guys over there shooting

1019
01:00:42,770 --> 01:00:44,650
wild duck.
So those were grownups.

1020
01:00:44,650 --> 01:00:47,530
So Jesse made sure to go in the
opposite direction of where the

1021
01:00:47,530 --> 01:00:50,610
adults were.
The last person to see Horace

1022
01:00:50,610 --> 01:00:53,010
alive outside of Jesse was a man
on the beach.

1023
01:00:53,690 --> 01:00:57,690
He only noticed because he said
that the older boy kept looking

1024
01:00:57,690 --> 01:01:00,530
over his shoulder as if someone
was following them, and nobody

1025
01:01:00,530 --> 01:01:04,450
was following them.
When they were finally alone,

1026
01:01:05,170 --> 01:01:06,890
Jesse was like, Do you want to
sit down?

1027
01:01:07,930 --> 01:01:12,330
And so they did.
And Jesse took out his knife and

1028
01:01:12,330 --> 01:01:17,770
he cut Horace's throat.
He was not efficient with this

1029
01:01:17,850 --> 01:01:22,410
attack because Horace was still
alive and fought back.

1030
01:01:25,410 --> 01:01:27,490
He's no match.
A four year old is no match for

1031
01:01:27,490 --> 01:01:31,090
a 14 year old.
He's His hands and arms had

1032
01:01:31,090 --> 01:01:36,740
signs of defensive wounds.
Eventually, Jesse did manage to

1033
01:01:36,740 --> 01:01:40,020
cut through his windpipe, which
ended the fight.

1034
01:01:41,380 --> 01:01:45,540
He continued to stab and cut the
body, also focusing on the

1035
01:01:45,540 --> 01:01:48,460
genitals here as well.
There were deep marks in the

1036
01:01:48,460 --> 01:01:53,500
sand from Horace, like digging
his feet in dozens of cuts on

1037
01:01:53,500 --> 01:01:56,580
his arms and hands, and at one
point his hands have been

1038
01:01:56,580 --> 01:02:00,460
clenched so tightly that his
fingernails left marks in his

1039
01:02:00,460 --> 01:02:04,820
palms.
It was not a not a good death.

1040
01:02:07,380 --> 01:02:11,060
And then, like to add insult to
injury, Jesse just leaves the

1041
01:02:11,060 --> 01:02:17,100
body on the beach to be found
like he didn't even care that

1042
01:02:18,420 --> 01:02:22,300
poor little kid.
Around 4:00 PM there are two

1043
01:02:22,300 --> 01:02:23,980
brothers who are playing along
the beach.

1044
01:02:24,300 --> 01:02:26,820
They thought that it was a doll
at first.

1045
01:02:27,260 --> 01:02:29,300
When they got closer, it
realized they realized it was a

1046
01:02:29,300 --> 01:02:31,820
person.
They'd seen a few of the

1047
01:02:31,820 --> 01:02:34,660
grownups who were hunting ducks
and went back and got help.

1048
01:02:34,660 --> 01:02:37,540
That was there were four men who
were duck hunting.

1049
01:02:37,860 --> 01:02:42,500
So two of them stayed back while
two others went to go find the

1050
01:02:42,500 --> 01:02:45,580
police.
The Millen family had been

1051
01:02:45,580 --> 01:02:52,340
searching for Horace since noon.
Yeah, at 5:30.

1052
01:02:52,340 --> 01:02:54,540
His father, they had been
searching the neighborhood.

1053
01:02:54,820 --> 01:02:56,700
His father reported him missing
with the police.

1054
01:02:56,700 --> 01:02:58,260
He described what his son was
wearing.

1055
01:02:58,730 --> 01:03:01,010
And we look like the police told
him they would keep an eye out.

1056
01:03:01,970 --> 01:03:05,450
At this point, the police didn't
actually know that a body had

1057
01:03:05,450 --> 01:03:07,730
been taken to the coroner to be
examined.

1058
01:03:08,530 --> 01:03:12,410
The coroner was a team of six
men, and they sat down to gather

1059
01:03:12,410 --> 01:03:14,090
as much evidence as they could
to give.

1060
01:03:14,090 --> 01:03:17,970
The police counted dozens of
defensive wounds, 18 stab wounds

1061
01:03:17,970 --> 01:03:20,410
to the chest.
He had a punctured eyeball,

1062
01:03:20,450 --> 01:03:25,090
completely mutilated genitals.
Thankfully, almost all of those

1063
01:03:25,530 --> 01:03:27,690
were delivered after Horace was
dead.

1064
01:03:28,430 --> 01:03:30,430
Because that would be horrible
to experience while you were

1065
01:03:30,430 --> 01:03:34,830
alive.
The kill was cutting his throat.

1066
01:03:36,110 --> 01:03:39,910
They released that report to the
police, but they also released

1067
01:03:39,910 --> 01:03:42,430
it to the papers, which was
common to do at that time

1068
01:03:42,910 --> 01:03:45,710
because they were trying to, you
know, find out who did it.

1069
01:03:46,150 --> 01:03:48,990
The police then issued A
bulletin trying to identify the

1070
01:03:48,990 --> 01:03:51,430
victim.
And South Boston, the South

1071
01:03:51,430 --> 01:03:54,030
Boston precinct was like, oh, we
know who that is.

1072
01:03:54,310 --> 01:03:56,630
So before this gets printed in
tomorrow's papers.

1073
01:03:57,010 --> 01:04:00,570
They go, and it's 9:00 at night.
They go to the mill and house to

1074
01:04:00,570 --> 01:04:06,370
tell them what happened.
There was only ever really one

1075
01:04:06,370 --> 01:04:10,610
suspect, of course, as it should
have been.

1076
01:04:10,850 --> 01:04:19,730
Immediately people were like is
definitely that one, but since

1077
01:04:19,730 --> 01:04:22,330
no one had been informed that
Jesse was home.

1078
01:04:22,940 --> 01:04:26,540
The police, the police chief
initially thought that Jesse was

1079
01:04:26,540 --> 01:04:28,980
still in reform school.
So they were like, well, he

1080
01:04:28,980 --> 01:04:31,900
can't be in reform school and
also here in Boston murdering

1081
01:04:31,900 --> 01:04:34,660
children.
Wait, the police weren't even

1082
01:04:34,700 --> 01:04:37,340
notified of this?
Different precincts, No.

1083
01:04:37,340 --> 01:04:40,100
Like nobody was.
As I said, no one was informed

1084
01:04:40,100 --> 01:04:42,700
and he came back home from
reform school, not just the

1085
01:04:42,700 --> 01:04:44,580
neighborhood or where the heck
he was living.

1086
01:04:44,660 --> 01:04:47,260
Well, so originally they worried
there was another killer.

1087
01:04:47,650 --> 01:04:51,330
But then the saw South Boston
Chief of police informed the

1088
01:04:51,410 --> 01:04:55,170
other police precinct No.
Jesse Pomeroy has been home for

1089
01:04:55,170 --> 01:04:57,610
about two months now.
Y'all should have been told as

1090
01:04:57,730 --> 01:05:00,290
this.
They picked him up immediately.

1091
01:05:01,650 --> 01:05:05,770
Ruth is upset.
Jesse's like I didn't do

1092
01:05:05,770 --> 01:05:07,250
anything wrong.
Don't worry about it mom.

1093
01:05:09,170 --> 01:05:12,610
Six officers interrogate him,
demanding to know Have you seen

1094
01:05:12,610 --> 01:05:14,570
Horace?
Do you have any connection to

1095
01:05:14,570 --> 01:05:17,210
the mill and family?
He totally keeps his cool, but

1096
01:05:17,210 --> 01:05:20,370
he doesn't have an alibi for
where he'd been from the morning

1097
01:05:20,370 --> 01:05:22,810
to the afternoon.
So then I decided to check his

1098
01:05:22,810 --> 01:05:26,090
clothes.
He has a small dark spot on his

1099
01:05:26,090 --> 01:05:31,650
shirt, about the size of a
thumb, a scratch on his face and

1100
01:05:31,650 --> 01:05:36,130
marsh grass stuck to his shoes.
They ask him, do you carry a

1101
01:05:36,130 --> 01:05:38,690
knife?
And at first he doesn't want to

1102
01:05:38,690 --> 01:05:43,610
tell them, but then he says
yeah, so the police go to his

1103
01:05:43,610 --> 01:05:46,290
house.
And find the knife, which is

1104
01:05:46,290 --> 01:05:49,250
still covered in blood and dirt.
Clean it.

1105
01:05:49,250 --> 01:05:53,730
He didn't even clean it.
They gave that to the coroner

1106
01:05:53,730 --> 01:05:55,570
and left Jesse in herself for
the night.

1107
01:05:55,570 --> 01:05:58,650
Damn 14 year olds.
The next morning, they got to

1108
01:05:58,650 --> 01:06:02,250
the beach to compare Jesse and
Horace's shoe prints.

1109
01:06:02,730 --> 01:06:06,330
They tracked the prints to an
area called Mckay's Wharf, and

1110
01:06:06,330 --> 01:06:09,010
they made a plaster cast of the
footprint in the sand.

1111
01:06:09,410 --> 01:06:11,290
Which really hadn't been done
before.

1112
01:06:11,410 --> 01:06:15,690
So they sort of created a new
thing to be done in police work.

1113
01:06:15,690 --> 01:06:18,050
Look at you guys.
In this case, look at you guys

1114
01:06:18,050 --> 01:06:19,930
go.
This is now, like a thing we do

1115
01:06:19,930 --> 01:06:22,090
all the time.
It's like a yeah.

1116
01:06:23,330 --> 01:06:27,250
Thing Jesse Hsu had a small
indentation in it, and with that

1117
01:06:27,250 --> 01:06:29,370
they were able to prove that he
had definitely been at the scene

1118
01:06:29,370 --> 01:06:32,490
of the murder.
So they wake him up when they

1119
01:06:32,490 --> 01:06:35,210
come back from the beach.
They're like bang, bang, bang,

1120
01:06:35,210 --> 01:06:38,410
come on buddy.
But he's still acting like a

1121
01:06:38,410 --> 01:06:44,630
cool guy.
So then they say, well if you

1122
01:06:44,630 --> 01:06:48,710
didn't do it like why don't we
take you to the Funeral Home so

1123
01:06:48,710 --> 01:06:52,830
you can see the body and Jesse's
like, no, I'm good I killed

1124
01:06:52,830 --> 01:06:56,110
them.
Why didn't you want to see your?

1125
01:06:56,430 --> 01:06:58,310
English pretty much.
He was like, Nope, I don't want

1126
01:06:58,310 --> 01:06:59,590
to see that.
Why not?

1127
01:07:00,510 --> 01:07:01,270
Why not?
You did?

1128
01:07:01,670 --> 01:07:04,870
It so he admits that he killed
him, but then he says please

1129
01:07:04,870 --> 01:07:10,500
don't tell my mom.
He had been gotten caught

1130
01:07:10,500 --> 01:07:12,740
stealing or something.
Oh my God.

1131
01:07:15,140 --> 01:07:18,820
The Boston Globe referred to him
as a moral monstrosity.

1132
01:07:18,820 --> 01:07:21,780
This is a direct quote.
He had no provocation and no

1133
01:07:21,780 --> 01:07:24,220
rational motive for his
atrocious conducts.

1134
01:07:24,660 --> 01:07:27,740
He did not know the little
ladmillon at all, but enticed

1135
01:07:27,740 --> 01:07:31,940
him away and cut and hacked him
to death with a pen knife merely

1136
01:07:31,940 --> 01:07:38,680
for sport and the papers.
Ripped into the parole board.

1137
01:07:39,360 --> 01:07:44,120
How dare you release him back
into the general population?

1138
01:07:44,640 --> 01:07:51,360
How dare you?
So we only have one issue here

1139
01:07:51,360 --> 01:07:55,080
because he's still 14, he's
still juvenile, and the

1140
01:07:55,080 --> 01:07:58,600
punishment for murder at the
time was hanging, but they had

1141
01:07:58,600 --> 01:08:01,840
never killed a child before and
nobody wanted to start.

1142
01:07:45,840 --> 01:07:48,000
And without telling anybody
about.

1143
01:08:02,120 --> 01:08:06,740
Well, we can try this time.
And also on the outside of this,

1144
01:08:06,740 --> 01:08:09,540
Ruth and Charles are struggling.
No one wants to shop at their

1145
01:08:09,540 --> 01:08:12,220
businesses anymore.
Obviously the only people who

1146
01:08:12,220 --> 01:08:15,220
stop by are there to gawk at
where the boy Fiend worked.

1147
01:08:15,540 --> 01:08:19,220
Ruth insists her son is innocent
and a month after his arrest,

1148
01:08:19,220 --> 01:08:22,500
they have to close the store.
So there was another business

1149
01:08:22,500 --> 01:08:25,380
nearby that offered to buy her
shop so she would have some

1150
01:08:25,380 --> 01:08:30,220
money to give her a little help.
And so as they are doing the

1151
01:08:30,220 --> 01:08:33,760
expansion.
They find Katie Curran's body

1152
01:08:33,760 --> 01:08:39,200
when workers are digging.
Wait, so wait, wait.

1153
01:08:39,279 --> 01:08:39,920
Hold on.
Hold on.

1154
01:08:39,920 --> 01:08:41,560
Hold on.
Hold on, hold on.

1155
01:08:41,800 --> 01:08:47,680
So during this whole time, I'm
guessing the mom and the

1156
01:08:47,680 --> 01:08:49,920
brother, they just never went
down.

1157
01:08:50,359 --> 01:08:52,200
Yeah, it seems like it must have
been the area.

1158
01:08:52,200 --> 01:08:55,640
Probably unfinished because they
like the way they describe is he

1159
01:08:55,640 --> 01:08:59,760
put her under rocks, but I'm
like if she had to be found by

1160
01:08:59,760 --> 01:09:02,870
people digging.
That doesn't just sound like he

1161
01:09:02,870 --> 01:09:05,910
just put a little rocks on her.
That must have been like a

1162
01:09:05,910 --> 01:09:10,189
completely unfinished area and
he could just pile some rubble

1163
01:09:10,189 --> 01:09:13,350
on top of her and move on.
So it was a space that they

1164
01:09:13,430 --> 01:09:16,710
didn't.
Yeah, they never used Okay.

1165
01:09:13,990 --> 01:09:20,149
They would never.
That's just wait, wait, another

1166
01:09:20,149 --> 01:09:21,710
question.
He stabs her, right?

1167
01:09:22,109 --> 01:09:24,590
Yes, there was.
He just cleaned them.

1168
01:09:24,590 --> 01:09:27,580
He cleaned.
He washed himself off in the He

1169
01:09:27,580 --> 01:09:29,340
washed himself open.
OK?

1170
01:09:29,340 --> 01:09:30,620
Yep.
OK, kept moving.

1171
01:09:30,740 --> 01:09:33,979
OK, so at this point, the whole
community is like, Oh yeah,

1172
01:09:34,260 --> 01:09:38,620
Jesse definitely did this, but
the police are like, do you

1173
01:09:38,620 --> 01:09:40,260
think his family was a part of
it?

1174
01:09:40,300 --> 01:09:44,620
No, obviously it was him.
So they bring them in for

1175
01:09:44,620 --> 01:09:46,660
questioning.
But it also protects them

1176
01:09:46,899 --> 01:09:50,979
because a mob of people have
gathered outside on Broadway and

1177
01:09:50,979 --> 01:09:54,400
are demanding justice.
Because her house was across the

1178
01:09:54,400 --> 01:09:58,440
street from the dress shop, so,
like, there was nowhere to go.

1179
01:10:00,080 --> 01:10:02,760
When confronted with all this
information, Jesse just shrugged

1180
01:10:02,760 --> 01:10:04,240
and was like, I don't know
anything.

1181
01:10:04,760 --> 01:10:06,000
The police were like, how about
this?

1182
01:10:06,000 --> 01:10:07,720
We're going to give you 2 days
to think about this.

1183
01:10:09,840 --> 01:10:12,080
And if you can't tell us
anything about Katie Curran's

1184
01:10:12,080 --> 01:10:15,280
death, we're going to have to
assume Charles and your mother

1185
01:10:15,280 --> 01:10:18,920
had something to do with this
when they came back.

1186
01:10:19,340 --> 01:10:22,660
He gave them a confession with
all of the details on how he

1187
01:10:22,660 --> 01:10:26,340
killed Katie and he was like my
family had nothing to do with

1188
01:10:26,340 --> 01:10:28,900
it.
When he was asked why he killed

1189
01:10:28,900 --> 01:10:30,940
Katie, he said.
I don't know.

1190
01:10:31,220 --> 01:10:37,380
I wanted to see how she would
act like a person being killed.

1191
01:10:37,620 --> 01:10:40,620
Yeah, Jackass.
So he I feel like he falls under

1192
01:10:40,620 --> 01:10:45,540
the the kind of partially like
killers who just do it for the

1193
01:10:45,540 --> 01:10:49,670
thrill.
Now, with the second murder

1194
01:10:49,670 --> 01:10:52,310
under his belt, it definitely
seems like he might become the

1195
01:10:52,310 --> 01:10:54,470
youngest person executed in
Massachusetts.

1196
01:10:55,070 --> 01:10:58,110
The only thing that could save
him would be if they could prove

1197
01:10:58,110 --> 01:11:00,790
he was insane, and they did that
using something called the

1198
01:11:00,790 --> 01:11:04,630
McNaughton Rules.
This came from a trial in

1199
01:11:04,630 --> 01:11:06,750
England in 1830.
This man named McNaughton,

1200
01:11:06,750 --> 01:11:09,670
killed the Prime Minister's
secretary because he believed

1201
01:11:09,670 --> 01:11:12,710
that the Prime Minister was part
of a conspiracy to kill him.

1202
01:11:13,750 --> 01:11:17,470
He was acquitted due to being
obviously unwell.

1203
01:11:17,900 --> 01:11:21,660
But the public was very upset,
and so they created something

1204
01:11:21,660 --> 01:11:23,820
called the McNaughton Rules to
determine if a defendant was

1205
01:11:23,860 --> 01:11:29,020
incapable of understanding the
charges against him, unable to

1206
01:11:29,020 --> 01:11:32,500
assist in his own defense, or
unaware of the difference

1207
01:11:32,500 --> 01:11:35,460
between right and wrong at the
time he committed the offense.

1208
01:11:35,740 --> 01:11:40,580
The same thing we talked about
in the Herbert Mullen case, it's

1209
01:11:40,580 --> 01:11:43,500
it's very much the difference
between Anatoly Onna Prienko.

1210
01:11:43,840 --> 01:11:46,600
Who was hearing voices but knew
entirely what he was doing the

1211
01:11:46,600 --> 01:11:50,600
entire time, versus John
Hinckley, who did not think it

1212
01:11:50,600 --> 01:11:54,120
was wrong to shoot President
Reagan to get the favor of a

1213
01:11:54,120 --> 01:11:59,280
Hollywood celebrity like
Hinckley definitely thought he

1214
01:11:59,280 --> 01:12:00,440
was.
What do you mean?

1215
01:12:00,440 --> 01:12:02,320
It was perfectly all right to
kill him.

1216
01:12:02,320 --> 01:12:06,120
They told me to do it, so it's
in line, but it's an important

1217
01:12:06,120 --> 01:12:09,180
distinction to make.
So for Jesse, they need to

1218
01:12:09,180 --> 01:12:12,140
figure out now if he's aware
that what he was doing was wrong

1219
01:12:12,140 --> 01:12:16,420
at as as it was happening.
So at the time they called

1220
01:12:16,580 --> 01:12:22,180
psychiatrist alienists.
Weird word, but I just refer

1221
01:12:22,180 --> 01:12:24,820
them as doctors here.
Three different doctors examined

1222
01:12:24,820 --> 01:12:27,780
Jesse 2 for the defense and one
for the prosecution.

1223
01:12:28,340 --> 01:12:32,540
He got close to one of the
defense doctors named Doctor

1224
01:12:32,540 --> 01:12:37,260
John Tyler, and he told Tyler
about molesting the young boys.

1225
01:12:37,740 --> 01:12:40,700
And how it was because he had an
impulse that would just come

1226
01:12:40,700 --> 01:12:45,860
over him, and he told Tyler how
he would get this sharp pain in

1227
01:12:45,860 --> 01:12:48,580
his head that would go from one
side to the other and it

1228
01:12:48,580 --> 01:12:51,180
wouldn't stop until he hurt
somebody.

1229
01:12:52,460 --> 01:12:57,100
Then he got a letter from his
mom saying don't tell the

1230
01:12:57,100 --> 01:13:00,340
doctors that you did anything
unless you really did something.

1231
01:13:00,700 --> 01:13:03,460
And if you didn't do it,
definitely deny it.

1232
01:13:04,500 --> 01:13:07,980
And he interpreted that as.
Absolutely deny everything.

1233
01:13:09,700 --> 01:13:12,980
So two months before trial, he
recanted his entire confession

1234
01:13:12,980 --> 01:13:15,980
to the doctors, and no amount of
prodding could make him change

1235
01:13:15,980 --> 01:13:18,060
his mind on this.
God damn.

1236
01:13:19,220 --> 01:13:21,260
You mom.
The final report issued by Tyler

1237
01:13:21,260 --> 01:13:25,500
said that Jesse had no pity for
the boys he tortured or the

1238
01:13:25,500 --> 01:13:27,860
murder victims.
He had no sorrow or remorse for

1239
01:13:27,860 --> 01:13:31,460
his acts, but he gave 2
conflicting opinions.

1240
01:13:31,700 --> 01:13:34,380
He said Jesse knew right from
wrong, but that he was.

1241
01:13:34,760 --> 01:13:37,440
Forever going to be a threat to
society and need to be

1242
01:13:37,440 --> 01:13:40,240
restrained so that no one else
could be endangered because he

1243
01:13:40,240 --> 01:13:45,520
was definitely 100% insane and
they were like, oh, that didn't

1244
01:13:45,520 --> 01:13:48,160
answer.
Was he insane when he did it

1245
01:13:48,160 --> 01:13:54,040
though So it didn't help.
The trial was set and his

1246
01:13:54,040 --> 01:13:56,880
attorneys were just hoping to
keep him alive.

1247
01:13:58,080 --> 01:14:00,960
Jesse apparently thought he'd
only go to jail for about 5

1248
01:14:00,960 --> 01:14:02,840
years and then he'd be allowed
to join the Navy.

1249
01:14:05,430 --> 01:14:10,110
Absolutely not.
I don't know what sort of weird

1250
01:14:10,150 --> 01:14:11,870
thought this kid had, but you
know what?

1251
01:14:11,870 --> 01:14:13,070
That's what that's kids are
weird.

1252
01:14:13,110 --> 01:14:14,310
That's, let's say, teenagers
are.

1253
01:14:14,550 --> 01:14:17,230
Yeah, there you go.
So Trial started December 8th,

1254
01:14:17,270 --> 01:14:20,750
1874, and just like many of the
trials we discussed on the

1255
01:14:20,750 --> 01:14:23,270
podcast packed, it's the event
of the century.

1256
01:14:23,990 --> 01:14:26,710
It was on front page news all
down the Eastern Seaboard.

1257
01:14:27,430 --> 01:14:30,510
Despite this being very exciting
for all the gawkers, it wasn't

1258
01:14:30,510 --> 01:14:32,630
long and drawn out like a lot of
modern trials are.

1259
01:14:33,350 --> 01:14:37,270
They picked a jury in under an
hour, began opening arguments on

1260
01:14:37,270 --> 01:14:40,230
the same day.
Prosecutor began by just

1261
01:14:40,230 --> 01:14:42,750
straight up telling the jury the
definition of murder.

1262
01:14:43,510 --> 01:14:44,830
And I'm going to be really
honest.

1263
01:14:44,830 --> 01:14:49,910
This isn't funny, but it's funny
because it was reported by local

1264
01:14:49,910 --> 01:14:54,430
newspapers that he was very
droll and quite boring.

1265
01:14:54,630 --> 01:14:58,110
The prosecutor?
Well, yeah, it's not.

1266
01:14:58,990 --> 01:15:01,640
They were like.
He's not exciting at all.

1267
01:15:01,640 --> 01:15:04,360
God, this guy sucks.
What do you want for?

1268
01:15:04,400 --> 01:15:06,360
What do you want from them?
Come on now.

1269
01:15:06,360 --> 01:15:09,360
You know what people want.
They want Tom Cruise.

1270
01:15:09,760 --> 01:15:13,320
You can't handle the truth.
They they want excitement in the

1271
01:15:13,320 --> 01:15:14,960
courtroom.
People don't realize that real

1272
01:15:14,960 --> 01:15:17,520
law is boring.
They want Keanu Reeves up in

1273
01:15:17,520 --> 01:15:19,200
there.
Oh my God.

1274
01:15:19,520 --> 01:15:20,880
They want what was that?
Who's?

1275
01:15:20,880 --> 01:15:22,200
Who's the one who yelled.
You can't handle.

1276
01:15:22,200 --> 01:15:26,310
The truth is that.
That's the one about the the

1277
01:15:26,310 --> 01:15:29,030
naval officer who was hurt.
Yes, that one.

1278
01:15:29,110 --> 01:15:30,910
That's what they want.
They want that excitement.

1279
01:15:31,470 --> 01:15:34,190
They don't realize that real law
is boring and it's a lot of

1280
01:15:34,190 --> 01:15:40,790
paperwork.
So the prosecutor just, it calls

1281
01:15:40,830 --> 01:15:43,790
all the witnesses who saw Jesse
walking the horse on the beach.

1282
01:15:43,790 --> 01:15:47,630
They all can't rereport their
previous stuff that they told

1283
01:15:47,630 --> 01:15:50,720
the police.
He brings out the shoe cast.

1284
01:15:50,720 --> 01:15:52,920
The police discussed the
confession.

1285
01:15:52,960 --> 01:15:55,320
Throughout all of this, Jesse is
unfazed.

1286
01:15:56,240 --> 01:15:59,240
Even during the more gruesome
discussion of what happened

1287
01:15:59,240 --> 01:16:01,680
during the murders.
He sits leaning back in his

1288
01:16:01,680 --> 01:16:07,120
chair with his hands behind his
neck, like relaxing during the

1289
01:16:07,120 --> 01:16:10,520
trial.
Then the defense start.

1290
01:16:10,800 --> 01:16:14,400
Now see, Jesse's attorney was
giving him the razzle dazzle.

1291
01:16:16,560 --> 01:16:20,720
He explains an excruciating
detail about how Jesse learned

1292
01:16:20,720 --> 01:16:25,000
to harm these boys from his
alcoholic, runaway dad.

1293
01:16:25,280 --> 01:16:29,160
He went into all of Jesse's past
crimes, and he asked the court

1294
01:16:29,160 --> 01:16:35,160
to think about could Jesse be
sane after experiencing all of

1295
01:16:35,160 --> 01:16:39,280
that?
That's just the opening argument

1296
01:16:39,280 --> 01:16:42,280
here.
So in laying on the defense to

1297
01:16:42,280 --> 01:16:44,000
prove that Jesse was legally
insane.

1298
01:16:44,410 --> 01:16:46,970
He brought up witness after
witness to back it up, and he

1299
01:16:46,970 --> 01:16:50,170
starts with Ruth Pomeroy.
Ruth tells the court about how

1300
01:16:50,170 --> 01:16:53,370
Jesse had all of these childhood
and illnesses that addled his

1301
01:16:53,370 --> 01:16:55,290
mind.
He had a brain fever.

1302
01:16:55,290 --> 01:16:58,650
He had seizures.
He suffered after all of that.

1303
01:16:58,650 --> 01:17:01,610
He suffered from insomnia,
dizziness, violent headaches.

1304
01:17:02,130 --> 01:17:04,690
They bring in witnesses from
their old neighborhood who

1305
01:17:04,690 --> 01:17:08,650
discussed how he would like, try
and hurt animals.

1306
01:17:08,650 --> 01:17:11,130
And then he would like run off,
holding his head in pain.

1307
01:17:11,620 --> 01:17:13,700
One of his teachers would
discuss how he would have these

1308
01:17:13,700 --> 01:17:16,620
really loud outbursts and when
he would get in trouble he would

1309
01:17:16,620 --> 01:17:23,220
like, get mad and be like, no,
it's not fair like a child.

1310
01:17:23,740 --> 01:17:29,340
Then they brought in Robert, who
still had the scars from when

1311
01:17:29,340 --> 01:17:33,140
Jesse attacked him.
And I don't know why the defense

1312
01:17:33,140 --> 01:17:37,100
did this.
They were trying to show how

1313
01:17:37,100 --> 01:17:40,460
crazy this attack was.
But it definitely backfired

1314
01:17:40,460 --> 01:17:44,140
because it made the jury so
angry that they were like, Oh

1315
01:17:44,140 --> 01:17:45,780
no, there's no way we're
acquitting this point.

1316
01:17:45,780 --> 01:17:48,660
Absolutely.
After that, the doctors

1317
01:17:48,660 --> 01:17:51,500
testified.
Dr. Tyler restates his report.

1318
01:17:51,500 --> 01:17:53,940
Jesse is a lunatic, needs to be
kept in prison for life.

1319
01:17:54,580 --> 01:17:57,620
But the prosecutor cross
examined him and got Tyler to

1320
01:17:57,620 --> 01:18:02,140
admit that Jesse showed no other
signs of madness outside of

1321
01:18:02,140 --> 01:18:04,820
murder and torture.
Which is weird, because you

1322
01:18:04,820 --> 01:18:07,420
know, if you're insane, I would
expect to see something.

1323
01:18:07,540 --> 01:18:12,110
See it?
Outside of just the clinic, so

1324
01:18:12,110 --> 01:18:15,750
second doctor thought that Jesse
was legally insane, but under

1325
01:18:15,750 --> 01:18:20,630
cross examination admitted that
Jesse fleeing the scene was

1326
01:18:20,630 --> 01:18:23,870
definitely to avoid punishment,
which meant he knew it was

1327
01:18:23,870 --> 01:18:27,870
wrong.
Then Doctor George Chote was the

1328
01:18:27,870 --> 01:18:30,750
3rd doctor and he was the doctor
for the prosecution.

1329
01:18:30,750 --> 01:18:34,390
So it was no surprise that he
called Jesse cunning and deeply

1330
01:18:34,390 --> 01:18:37,230
manipulative and free of all
mental defects.

1331
01:18:37,750 --> 01:18:41,350
That one sounds a lot more true.
Just just saying.

1332
01:18:42,070 --> 01:18:44,350
Maybe closing arguments.
And then after five hours of

1333
01:18:44,350 --> 01:18:48,510
deliberation, the jury came back
determining he was guilty of

1334
01:18:48,510 --> 01:18:52,390
first degree murder, but they
requested clemency for him

1335
01:18:52,430 --> 01:18:56,030
because he was so young.
However, this is not something a

1336
01:18:56,030 --> 01:18:57,990
judge can do.
Clemency can only be granted by

1337
01:18:57,990 --> 01:19:02,550
the governor, so the judge
ordered Jesse to be taken to a

1338
01:19:02,550 --> 01:19:07,960
cell and await execution.
So unlike now in 21st century

1339
01:19:08,720 --> 01:19:13,440
death row, inmates in the 19th
century did not wait for 20-30

1340
01:19:13,440 --> 01:19:17,080
years on death row.
You were lucky if you were on

1341
01:19:17,080 --> 01:19:19,360
death row for a year.
Then.

1342
01:19:19,440 --> 01:19:23,840
See, this is.
I'm just saying this is, I'm

1343
01:19:23,920 --> 01:19:26,520
sorry, continue.
However, the thing here was that

1344
01:19:26,640 --> 01:19:32,080
nobody wanted to do it, but the
public wanted justice for Horace

1345
01:19:32,080 --> 01:19:35,260
and Katie.
So they were like, hey, let's

1346
01:19:35,620 --> 01:19:38,460
take this to the governor.
So the governor at the time, his

1347
01:19:38,460 --> 01:19:41,500
name was William Gaston, though
it's spelled Gaston.

1348
01:19:41,500 --> 01:19:45,180
And it really made it really
made it hard for me not to call

1349
01:19:45,180 --> 01:19:52,460
him Governor Gaston.
No one hangs like Gaston.

1350
01:19:55,660 --> 01:20:03,490
I quit little boys like Gaston.
Oh, we're going to hell.

1351
01:20:03,530 --> 01:20:05,930
Well, well, here's the thing.
So Gaston did what every

1352
01:20:05,930 --> 01:20:10,010
politician does.
He elected a committee to study

1353
01:20:10,010 --> 01:20:12,170
it and report back.
Oh, come on, you just had a

1354
01:20:12,170 --> 01:20:13,970
freaking trial about this.
Nope.

1355
01:20:14,370 --> 01:20:16,010
Nope.
The committee is torn.

1356
01:20:16,650 --> 01:20:19,530
And so Gaston asked the citizens
of Boston what to do.

1357
01:20:19,810 --> 01:20:22,930
And so they do a public hearing
and people speak for and against

1358
01:20:22,930 --> 01:20:27,130
it, and it goes all day long.
Governor's like, okay, I'm going

1359
01:20:27,130 --> 01:20:32,330
to take this into account.
And then nothing happens for

1360
01:20:32,330 --> 01:20:35,850
weeks.
And while nothing happens,

1361
01:20:36,410 --> 01:20:41,010
another disturbed man in his 20s
kills a little boy in Boston.

1362
01:20:42,290 --> 01:20:45,050
And the people in Boston are
like, what are you going to do

1363
01:20:45,050 --> 01:20:50,410
about the Pomeroy boy?
Because somebody else is now

1364
01:20:50,410 --> 01:20:54,010
killing boys because they know
that they won't get murdered for

1365
01:20:54,010 --> 01:20:57,530
it.
So the governor's like, all

1366
01:20:57,530 --> 01:21:00,150
right, bring the committee back.
We're going to have the

1367
01:21:00,150 --> 01:21:04,470
committee vote, committee votes
5 to 4 to allow the sentence to

1368
01:21:04,470 --> 01:21:08,470
stand.
Jesse will hang, but Governor

1369
01:21:08,470 --> 01:21:09,910
Gaston won't sign the death
warrant.

1370
01:21:11,950 --> 01:21:16,950
This actually probably cost him
his position as governor because

1371
01:21:16,950 --> 01:21:22,730
in 1876, Alexander Rice ran on
the Hang Jesse Pomeroy platform

1372
01:21:23,010 --> 01:21:26,650
and won.
Obviously, he was elected.

1373
01:21:26,810 --> 01:21:31,890
He's like, listen, if you elect
me, I will hang Jesse Pomeroy.

1374
01:21:31,890 --> 01:21:36,930
I will hang that child.
I will kill that child if you

1375
01:21:36,930 --> 01:21:38,410
will elect me.
Oh my God.

1376
01:21:39,250 --> 01:21:42,530
I would love to find like, any
sort of old.

1377
01:21:42,650 --> 01:21:46,650
I looked, I tried.
I wanted to see a picture or a

1378
01:21:46,650 --> 01:21:50,010
poster or anything that listed
this.

1379
01:21:51,170 --> 01:21:55,730
Couldn't find it all.
Oh my God, I guess, you know,

1380
01:21:55,730 --> 01:21:59,730
governor of Boston, not as
important as, you know, holding

1381
01:21:59,730 --> 01:22:02,090
on to like old presidential
papers.

1382
01:22:02,450 --> 01:22:06,570
Right.
Boom, I said.

1383
01:22:06,570 --> 01:22:08,330
Governor of Boston, Governor of
Massachusetts.

1384
01:22:08,410 --> 01:22:10,090
Oh my goodness.
There's no governor.

1385
01:22:10,090 --> 01:22:11,610
I I kind of.
I knew what you meant.

1386
01:22:11,610 --> 01:22:18,290
But yeah, but regardless,
Alexander Rice is elected 1876.

1387
01:22:18,780 --> 01:22:22,100
So in August of 1876, he brings
together his advisors and he's

1388
01:22:22,100 --> 01:22:24,540
like, listen, I'm not going to
hang this kid.

1389
01:22:25,620 --> 01:22:28,140
Dude, come on.
That was your whole thing.

1390
01:22:28,140 --> 01:22:29,780
I was with you.
I voted for you.

1391
01:22:31,580 --> 01:22:33,100
I went back in time.
I voted for you.

1392
01:22:33,100 --> 01:22:34,820
Come on.
I moved to Boston.

1393
01:22:35,420 --> 01:22:40,100
I went back in time, moved to
Boston, and but yo, you probably

1394
01:22:40,100 --> 01:22:42,740
couldn't even vote in Boston.
You probably we couldn't.

1395
01:22:42,780 --> 01:22:44,540
Neither of us could.
I'm like, what are you doing

1396
01:22:44,540 --> 01:22:48,640
here, boy?
I don't.

1397
01:22:48,640 --> 01:22:51,600
I don't think the you're given a
Southern accent and this is a

1398
01:22:51,600 --> 01:22:54,760
Boston accent.
You never know, so I I might

1399
01:22:54,760 --> 01:22:57,080
even try a Boston.
Accent, but this is this was in

1400
01:22:57,080 --> 01:22:59,200
the North too.
But you know, Oh no, no, there

1401
01:22:59,200 --> 01:23:01,120
were, listen, there were no
rights in the north as well.

1402
01:23:01,320 --> 01:23:04,280
So sundown towns existed in the
north.

1403
01:23:05,280 --> 01:23:09,720
I digress.
He says choose advisors.

1404
01:23:09,720 --> 01:23:12,480
Like, listen, the people of
Boston have had about two years

1405
01:23:12,480 --> 01:23:15,040
to calm down.
He's like, I think they'll

1406
01:23:15,040 --> 01:23:19,240
accept a sentence less than
death, but it still needs to be

1407
01:23:19,240 --> 01:23:23,320
severe.
So the governor orders that he

1408
01:23:23,320 --> 01:23:27,120
will spend his life not only
behind bars but in solitary

1409
01:23:27,120 --> 01:23:32,680
confinement, which we know now
in modern day is pretty bad.

1410
01:23:32,720 --> 01:23:37,280
I mean, solitary is considered
torture, so I guess it's okay to

1411
01:23:37,280 --> 01:23:44,600
torture the torturer.
I don't know.

1412
01:23:44,600 --> 01:23:48,160
Jesse was allowed a monthly
visit from his mother at the

1413
01:23:48,160 --> 01:23:52,240
President Charlestown, and he
had a pretty boring existence.

1414
01:23:52,800 --> 01:23:55,080
Once his mother died, the only
people he ever saw were the

1415
01:23:55,080 --> 01:23:57,680
guards patrolling.
His brother had died in the war.

1416
01:23:57,680 --> 01:24:02,160
So yeah, I think that was in
like 18 nineties.

1417
01:24:02,240 --> 01:24:06,360
His brother died.
Every so often a reporter would

1418
01:24:06,400 --> 01:24:09,040
phone the president and ask
about him, but they were never

1419
01:24:09,040 --> 01:24:10,800
allowed to actually talk to him
or interview him.

1420
01:24:12,560 --> 01:24:14,840
Over time, governors came and
went.

1421
01:24:16,010 --> 01:24:19,850
They all met the most famous
prisoner in Massachusetts, and

1422
01:24:19,850 --> 01:24:23,890
then they went on their way.
He ultimately spent 41 years in

1423
01:24:23,890 --> 01:24:27,250
solitary confinement.
And then in 1917, they kind of

1424
01:24:27,250 --> 01:24:28,850
relaxed his sentence a little
bit.

1425
01:24:29,250 --> 01:24:33,970
They said that he at this point
he's meddled and they let him

1426
01:24:33,970 --> 01:24:35,370
go.
In general population,

1427
01:24:36,290 --> 01:24:39,450
originally, when he's released,
he's known as like, the worst

1428
01:24:39,450 --> 01:24:41,370
prisoner there.
For a time, something that like

1429
01:24:41,370 --> 01:24:44,990
kind of, like made him happy.
Many of these prisoners had

1430
01:24:44,990 --> 01:24:49,950
grown up hearing about him.
But then something worse

1431
01:24:49,950 --> 01:24:55,910
actually happened, because after
enough time, he kind of became a

1432
01:24:55,910 --> 01:25:00,830
faceless inmate who nobody knew
about and nobody was afraid of

1433
01:25:00,830 --> 01:25:03,910
anymore.
And that was kind of worse than

1434
01:25:03,910 --> 01:25:07,620
solitary confinement for him,
because for a sociopath who

1435
01:25:07,620 --> 01:25:12,580
liked being known as the the boy
fiend of Boston, being forgotten

1436
01:25:12,580 --> 01:25:17,740
is terrible.
But he never showed any remorse

1437
01:25:18,100 --> 01:25:20,060
the entire 58 years he was in
prison.

1438
01:25:21,260 --> 01:25:23,580
He never apologized to his
victims or any of their

1439
01:25:23,580 --> 01:25:27,620
families.
By 1929, he was in poor health.

1440
01:25:28,140 --> 01:25:31,220
He's 71 years old and they
finally moved him to a

1441
01:25:31,660 --> 01:25:35,020
Bridgewater prison farm for
better medical care.

1442
01:25:36,070 --> 01:25:39,590
It was actually his first and
only ride in an automobile, cuz

1443
01:25:39,590 --> 01:25:41,670
he had been in prison for so
long he didn't know anything

1444
01:25:41,670 --> 01:25:43,750
about any of the new life
outside of the prison.

1445
01:25:43,750 --> 01:25:44,950
That's right.
They have wagons.

1446
01:25:45,350 --> 01:25:48,430
The little red wagons they're
riding me.

1447
01:25:48,430 --> 01:25:52,550
A few reporters actually watched
his transfer and reported that

1448
01:25:52,550 --> 01:25:57,670
he was a deadened creature,
gazing with lustreless eyes upon

1449
01:25:57,670 --> 01:25:59,950
a world that means nothing to
him.

1450
01:26:00,790 --> 01:26:04,950
It's like okay, so we're both
saying, reporters wrote.

1451
01:26:05,440 --> 01:26:08,640
Real flowery back then, that.
Was fantastic.

1452
01:26:08,640 --> 01:26:11,280
I love how they wrote that.
That's just like, imagine,

1453
01:26:11,640 --> 01:26:15,880
that's like a a dragon, OK, A
dragon has been sealed away.

1454
01:26:16,120 --> 01:26:18,960
Yeah.
And lazing with lustreless eyes

1455
01:26:19,040 --> 01:26:20,680
upon a world that means nothing.
To him.

1456
01:26:20,680 --> 01:26:24,320
And then he finally gets out.
And it's just like, I don't care

1457
01:26:24,320 --> 01:26:26,320
about any of this going on
outside of me.

1458
01:26:27,920 --> 01:26:30,640
I'll Yeah, but yeah, he died two
years later at that prison.

1459
01:26:31,240 --> 01:26:34,160
The press referred to him as the
most friendless person in the

1460
01:26:34,160 --> 01:26:38,290
world.
Of course, his only wish when he

1461
01:26:38,290 --> 01:26:40,010
knew he was going to die was
that he'd be cremated.

1462
01:26:40,290 --> 01:26:43,130
Since his brother had died and
his mother died of old age, he

1463
01:26:43,130 --> 01:26:46,410
had no living family and no one
to care for him, so his only was

1464
01:26:46,410 --> 01:26:48,170
die.
He was like cremate me, scatter

1465
01:26:48,170 --> 01:26:50,650
me when they end the wind and so
that's what they did.

1466
01:26:52,050 --> 01:26:56,890
And that kind of ends the saga
of the boy fiend of Boston.

1467
01:26:58,570 --> 01:27:02,450
A pretty horrible kid.
That was terrible and horrible

1468
01:27:02,450 --> 01:27:06,300
person.
I mean, I knew about him.

1469
01:27:06,300 --> 01:27:08,140
I just didn't know all the
details.

1470
01:27:09,100 --> 01:27:11,420
Yeah, I think I've heard this
story before.

1471
01:27:11,820 --> 01:27:15,820
I think I mentioned him in one
of the tik toks when I talked

1472
01:27:15,820 --> 01:27:18,820
about children that kill.
But I mean, that was a one

1473
01:27:18,820 --> 01:27:22,740
minute video, not an hour of
discussing his entire life that.

1474
01:27:23,820 --> 01:27:24,900
Was bad?
Oh yeah.

1475
01:27:25,140 --> 01:27:28,700
I definitely agree with the the
group of people who were like,

1476
01:27:28,700 --> 01:27:31,900
why did y'all let him out?
I mean, I think he still would

1477
01:27:31,900 --> 01:27:33,700
have been a menace to society at
18.

1478
01:27:33,700 --> 01:27:35,940
He probably would have gotten
out and killed somebody at 18,

1479
01:27:37,500 --> 01:27:39,140
but then there wouldn't have
been any dispute.

1480
01:27:39,380 --> 01:27:42,020
They would have just hung him
because he was an adult.

1481
01:27:42,140 --> 01:27:44,620
Exactly.
See, you know the the real issue

1482
01:27:44,620 --> 01:27:47,420
there was it took them two years
to decide to put him in

1483
01:27:47,420 --> 01:27:49,140
solitary.
And those little babies would

1484
01:27:49,140 --> 01:27:51,140
have lived a little longer.
True.

1485
01:27:54,030 --> 01:27:57,470
Poor kids.
Yeah, this is a rough one.

1486
01:27:58,390 --> 01:28:00,990
I hated every moment of it.
That's why it took me a long

1487
01:28:00,990 --> 01:28:04,430
time to finish it.
You're making fun of me for

1488
01:28:04,670 --> 01:28:08,110
doing an all nighter to finish
my notes, but whenever it's like

1489
01:28:08,110 --> 01:28:10,510
a kid thing, it takes me
forever.

1490
01:28:11,030 --> 01:28:13,820
I understand it.
I understand like I stopped

1491
01:28:13,820 --> 01:28:17,900
doing this to myself.
Stop doing myself.

1492
01:28:17,900 --> 01:28:21,700
Stop doing it to both of us.
I'm sorry.

1493
01:28:21,780 --> 01:28:23,820
Killing me over here, Smalls,
No.

1494
01:28:40,300 --> 01:28:43,140
So what do we have on the spooky
side of life?

1495
01:28:43,660 --> 01:28:47,180
Let me just say this episode's
gonna be long, okay.

1496
01:28:48,860 --> 01:28:56,890
And I do not apologize for that.
So let me pull this story out of

1497
01:28:56,890 --> 01:29:01,690
my hat.
So you know what I always loved,

1498
01:29:03,530 --> 01:29:05,610
even as a little kid?
The Jersey Devil.

1499
01:29:06,890 --> 01:29:13,130
Besides that okay anime.
Besides anime?

1500
01:29:17,490 --> 01:29:22,460
Scary movies.
Yeah, you ask what you love.

1501
01:29:22,780 --> 01:29:24,540
That's what I know.
You're naming all this stuff,

1502
01:29:24,540 --> 01:29:26,420
that's true.
I don't know.

1503
01:29:26,540 --> 01:29:27,540
I'm not just.
Not right.

1504
01:29:27,740 --> 01:29:29,540
You're not hitting the right
button, OK.

1505
01:29:31,260 --> 01:29:35,460
Magic.
Are we gonna talk about what I

1506
01:29:35,780 --> 01:29:41,820
think we're gonna?
Talk about No, I'm not talking

1507
01:29:41,820 --> 01:29:44,020
about witchcraft right here.
No.

1508
01:29:44,060 --> 01:29:49,060
I'm talking about stage magic.
No, you're a delight.

1509
01:29:49,780 --> 01:30:00,700
I love you so much.
I only wish we had cameras for

1510
01:30:00,700 --> 01:30:01,300
this.
I know.

1511
01:30:01,580 --> 01:30:04,180
See how happy I absolutely am
right now?

1512
01:30:04,300 --> 01:30:07,900
My goodness, this is just say
his name.

1513
01:30:08,100 --> 01:30:13,140
Say his name.
Let me get in my story Okay now.

1514
01:30:13,180 --> 01:30:16,700
I remember when I was like, I
don't know 10 or 12 and.

1515
01:30:17,380 --> 01:30:19,220
We took our yearly trip down to
Florida.

1516
01:30:20,580 --> 01:30:23,660
There's this place in like the
Orlando area.

1517
01:30:23,780 --> 01:30:27,180
It's like this little amusement
type of strip.

1518
01:30:27,380 --> 01:30:30,020
I don't know what you want to
call it, but it's called Old

1519
01:30:30,020 --> 01:30:35,300
Town Okay and we would just walk
down, up and down the streets

1520
01:30:35,300 --> 01:30:36,740
cuz they had great shops.
Yeah.

1521
01:30:36,940 --> 01:30:39,580
Do you walk by yourself?
No, I did not.

1522
01:30:41,060 --> 01:30:44,460
Didn't no see no.
We're in different state,

1523
01:30:44,460 --> 01:30:45,380
definitely.
No.

1524
01:30:45,580 --> 01:30:47,540
I definitely have heard, though
Orlando's kind of rough.

1525
01:30:47,940 --> 01:30:50,660
Yeah, outside of the tourist
areas, it's not a place you

1526
01:30:50,660 --> 01:30:52,620
wanna be chilling out by
yourself.

1527
01:30:52,860 --> 01:30:56,460
No, absolutely not.
So as walking down the streets

1528
01:30:56,460 --> 01:31:00,380
of Old Town, I, like, literally
stopped dead in my tracks

1529
01:31:01,020 --> 01:31:04,980
because I saw this wondrous
shop.

1530
01:31:05,700 --> 01:31:10,020
It was a magic shop if my eyes
were bright.

1531
01:31:10,640 --> 01:31:16,200
And I begged my parents to go,
my mom to go inside and my God,

1532
01:31:17,840 --> 01:31:23,680
my tiny mind exploded.
And there was like magic tricks

1533
01:31:23,680 --> 01:31:25,680
lying in the walls.
They had like monster masks.

1534
01:31:25,680 --> 01:31:29,000
They had Todd pads.
They were wants they had.

1535
01:31:29,680 --> 01:31:33,600
And all this also, like even now
if I saw this, it's like they're

1536
01:31:33,600 --> 01:31:36,440
just nice to go into.
I've seen them as a grown up and

1537
01:31:36,440 --> 01:31:39,200
I'm like, this is just cool.
I don't want to buy any of those

1538
01:31:39,200 --> 01:31:41,400
little boxes of tricks, but
they're cool places, I.

1539
01:31:41,400 --> 01:31:43,960
Would still freak out.
I would still blow like mine

1540
01:31:43,960 --> 01:31:48,800
would still be blown.
So I was in heaven.

1541
01:31:48,920 --> 01:31:53,120
So I left that store with like a
magic wand and like, you know,

1542
01:31:53,120 --> 01:31:57,040
little coin trick.
So I was freaking happy.

1543
01:31:58,490 --> 01:32:03,090
Funny thing is, like my siblings
and my siblings and their dad,

1544
01:32:03,970 --> 01:32:08,090
they would, they'd clown me
because I bought it and I didn't

1545
01:32:08,090 --> 01:32:09,730
know how to use it.
Well, you could.

1546
01:32:13,330 --> 01:32:16,650
Learn after that my mom and I
was into knives.

1547
01:32:16,650 --> 01:32:27,010
So here we are.
So why am I talking about my

1548
01:32:27,010 --> 01:32:29,900
childhood again?
And why am I talking about

1549
01:32:30,260 --> 01:32:34,580
magic?
Well, because we're finally

1550
01:32:35,060 --> 01:32:38,820
going to sit down and talk about
one of the greatest magicians,

1551
01:32:39,060 --> 01:32:43,740
illusionists, and medium
debunker, Harry Houdini.

1552
01:32:43,900 --> 01:32:48,180
Yeah, buddy.
Oh yeah, I've been waiting for

1553
01:32:48,220 --> 01:32:51,140
this one.
I've been wanting to hear about

1554
01:32:51,140 --> 01:32:55,300
how Houdini hated psychics.
I love it.

1555
01:32:57,410 --> 01:32:59,290
Oh, goodness.
I'm glad you're happy.

1556
01:33:00,770 --> 01:33:02,970
You know how you were like,
thank you for this gift.

1557
01:33:03,090 --> 01:33:09,050
Yes, When I talked about Debbie.
Yes, thank you for this gift.

1558
01:33:09,050 --> 01:33:12,170
This is my favorite thing.
This is another gift you had

1559
01:33:12,170 --> 01:33:13,530
your gift with the horns only I
got.

1560
01:33:13,570 --> 01:33:15,690
See, I got you 2 gifts this
year, all right?

1561
01:33:15,690 --> 01:33:19,250
I gotta do better.
I gotta find you another person

1562
01:33:19,250 --> 01:33:22,690
who justifiably murdered, like
20 people.

1563
01:33:22,690 --> 01:33:25,450
There you go.
Righteous.

1564
01:33:26,260 --> 01:33:27,380
Murder.
Righteous murder.

1565
01:33:27,380 --> 01:33:32,460
I loved it so much.
So what I'm going to talk about

1566
01:33:32,740 --> 01:33:36,020
this week is not the magic side
of you know, Houdini.

1567
01:33:36,020 --> 01:33:40,860
Of course not.
But how This man kind of made it

1568
01:33:40,860 --> 01:33:44,620
his mission to debunk mediums.
That's right.

1569
01:33:47,740 --> 01:33:52,700
So I'd say the catalyst for his
debunking journey would be the

1570
01:33:52,700 --> 01:33:58,960
passing of his mother in 1913.
So after her death, he was, you

1571
01:33:58,960 --> 01:34:01,760
know, unsurprisingly overcome
with grief.

1572
01:34:02,120 --> 01:34:04,240
Feel you been there, buddy.
Yeah, it's not a good time.

1573
01:34:06,600 --> 01:34:11,080
So I guess what he did was that
sometimes he would lie on her

1574
01:34:11,080 --> 01:34:15,120
gravestone or, you know, and
then just, you know, speak to

1575
01:34:15,120 --> 01:34:16,960
the earth.
Like speaking to her.

1576
01:34:17,320 --> 01:34:18,360
Ohh, wow.
Yeah.

1577
01:34:18,800 --> 01:34:22,280
I haven't even visited my mom.
I can't.

1578
01:34:22,940 --> 01:34:25,220
I just feel like it would be an
overwhelming experience.

1579
01:34:25,220 --> 01:34:27,380
So I'm just gonna, like, love
you from afar.

1580
01:34:28,100 --> 01:34:30,540
But he decided to go to her
gravestone and talk to.

1581
01:34:30,580 --> 01:34:32,420
Her.
Yeah, This is just, he was just

1582
01:34:32,580 --> 01:34:35,260
like, he called like multiple
searches.

1583
01:34:35,260 --> 01:34:37,780
I looked at, they called like,
he called her his Angel on

1584
01:34:37,780 --> 01:34:41,580
earth.
So yeah, she was like his world.

1585
01:34:42,740 --> 01:34:49,260
And it was like I I cannot
relate to that, of course,

1586
01:34:49,260 --> 01:34:51,980
because my mother is still
alive, but.

1587
01:34:52,400 --> 01:34:54,480
I just.
I feel for you.

1588
01:34:54,560 --> 01:34:57,360
I absolutely can.
Feel for him.

1589
01:34:57,400 --> 01:35:02,440
I feel for you.
Yeah, I would.

1590
01:35:03,480 --> 01:35:04,720
It's one of those few things
people like.

1591
01:35:04,720 --> 01:35:06,440
I wouldn't wish it on my worst
enemy.

1592
01:35:07,960 --> 01:35:12,480
That's it's that bad.
Losing a parent is that bad.

1593
01:35:14,600 --> 01:35:20,560
I once read an article from the
Guardian and we talked about how

1594
01:35:20,560 --> 01:35:26,130
he had an uncle who had gotten
like a blown up in a war, like

1595
01:35:26,130 --> 01:35:28,450
an explosion happened, and he
had shrapnel in his body.

1596
01:35:29,090 --> 01:35:32,570
And he said that like every once
in a while a piece of shrapnel

1597
01:35:32,570 --> 01:35:35,250
would just decide to start
moving and it would very

1598
01:35:35,250 --> 01:35:37,930
painfully force its way out of
its body.

1599
01:35:38,210 --> 01:35:42,010
And that is grief, and it just
keeps coming and coming.

1600
01:35:42,010 --> 01:35:46,810
It doesn't stop.
So that's I feel for Harry.

1601
01:35:48,290 --> 01:35:51,060
So all this time.
Talking to her grave, he was

1602
01:35:51,060 --> 01:35:54,140
always wondering if there's a
way to communicate with the

1603
01:35:54,140 --> 01:35:55,420
dead.
Right.

1604
01:35:56,940 --> 01:36:03,180
So and con spiritualism with
such one living person could

1605
01:36:03,180 --> 01:36:07,460
commune with the dead with the
assistance of a medium through

1606
01:36:07,500 --> 01:36:11,740
seances and back then this is
when they used to do that thing

1607
01:36:11,740 --> 01:36:14,140
with the table, right?
And everyone sat around the

1608
01:36:14,140 --> 01:36:18,490
table and.
That fun stuff, it was like a

1609
01:36:18,490 --> 01:36:20,890
big to do.
Now people are like, I'm gonna

1610
01:36:20,890 --> 01:36:22,930
sit with you in your living room
and we're just gonna talk.

1611
01:36:23,530 --> 01:36:28,610
But this was like a big deal.
Yeah, no Luigi boards right now.

1612
01:36:29,050 --> 01:36:35,970
Oh gosh, you're not a fan.
So, fun fact, I don't know if

1613
01:36:35,970 --> 01:36:39,130
you knew about this, but Harry
Houdini actually performed fake

1614
01:36:39,130 --> 01:36:41,850
seances during his early years
as a magician.

1615
01:36:42,410 --> 01:36:48,140
No, I I didn't know he did that.
I thought that he just hated

1616
01:36:48,140 --> 01:36:50,540
them.
No, this is before he hated

1617
01:36:50,540 --> 01:36:55,060
them, so so was he, like,
scamming people?

1618
01:36:55,180 --> 01:36:56,980
No, this was part of his magic
act.

1619
01:36:57,020 --> 01:37:01,220
Okay.
Like, I know a lot of magicians

1620
01:37:01,220 --> 01:37:03,100
back in that day actually did
stuff like this.

1621
01:37:04,140 --> 01:37:10,300
But yeah, but yeah, so he, like,
really wanted to believe in

1622
01:37:10,300 --> 01:37:12,700
spiritualism.
But he knew that there might be

1623
01:37:12,700 --> 01:37:15,940
frauds out there, of course,
like this stuff he was doing.

1624
01:37:17,900 --> 01:37:22,900
So the years now 1920, he
becomes friends with the author

1625
01:37:22,900 --> 01:37:28,620
of the Sri like home novels
Conan Doyle.

1626
01:37:28,980 --> 01:37:32,900
Wow.
So both author Arthur and his

1627
01:37:32,900 --> 01:37:34,980
wife were believers of
spiritualism.

1628
01:37:35,340 --> 01:37:38,660
His wife, Jean, was also a
practicing medium.

1629
01:37:39,420 --> 01:37:43,930
Oh no.
So Doyle's interest in

1630
01:37:43,930 --> 01:37:48,290
spiritualism came after the
death of his son in World War

1631
01:37:48,290 --> 01:37:51,330
One.
He publicly endorsed the

1632
01:37:51,330 --> 01:37:55,090
practice by donating money to
popular mediums of the time.

1633
01:37:57,530 --> 01:37:59,930
I just don't see this going well
for their friendship.

1634
01:38:02,050 --> 01:38:05,330
So.
So while Houdini was in England,

1635
01:38:05,770 --> 01:38:07,730
you know, he'd hang out with his
buddy Arthur.

1636
01:38:08,450 --> 01:38:12,480
He'd invite them.
Hit the dohails to his shows and

1637
01:38:12,480 --> 01:38:13,880
he hang out with them at their
place.

1638
01:38:16,040 --> 01:38:21,200
They were homies, basically.
One day Houdini and his wife

1639
01:38:21,200 --> 01:38:25,600
Bess, Arthur and Jean were
sitting at lunch and Houdini's

1640
01:38:25,600 --> 01:38:27,240
doing tricks for, you know,
Arthur's kids.

1641
01:38:27,880 --> 01:38:32,760
And when spiritualism comes up,
so this is when Jean tells them

1642
01:38:32,760 --> 01:38:34,360
that, you know, she's a
practicing medium.

1643
01:38:35,080 --> 01:38:37,680
And Houdini is like, here we go
with this bullshit.

1644
01:38:39,580 --> 01:38:42,420
Oh, OK.
But you know, he he doesn't say

1645
01:38:42,420 --> 01:38:44,740
anything because you know,
that's his friend's wife.

1646
01:38:45,300 --> 01:38:50,740
So so he holds his tongue.
But he does ask he he asked him

1647
01:38:50,740 --> 01:38:53,820
to suggest, you know, a medium
for him to visit, and he

1648
01:38:53,820 --> 01:38:58,020
promises to go with an open mind
willing to believe that's a lie.

1649
01:38:58,900 --> 01:39:04,500
No, look, I believe, OK.
I would no, I believe that he he

1650
01:39:04,500 --> 01:39:08,090
truly like.
He wasn't going to these things

1651
01:39:08,090 --> 01:39:13,130
just to debunk them at first.
Like, you know, I'm just going

1652
01:39:13,130 --> 01:39:15,130
to go.
I know it's a lot of bullshit,

1653
01:39:15,290 --> 01:39:18,130
but, you know, I'm just going to
go and see, you know what it's

1654
01:39:18,130 --> 01:39:23,250
like, basically.
Like, that'd be like asking me

1655
01:39:23,250 --> 01:39:26,410
to go like, see Sylvia Brown and
be like, just keep an open mind,

1656
01:39:26,410 --> 01:39:27,810
Brittany, and I'm like.
No.

1657
01:39:28,010 --> 01:39:28,530
Yeah.
I can't.

1658
01:39:28,970 --> 01:39:30,050
I can't.
Not with her.

1659
01:39:30,050 --> 01:39:31,290
I can't.
No, not at all.

1660
01:39:31,290 --> 01:39:32,970
It would need to be some
unknown.

1661
01:39:32,970 --> 01:39:36,330
Never been on TV, psychic.
Not somebody who makes money off

1662
01:39:36,330 --> 01:39:37,570
of this.
I don't trust them.

1663
01:39:37,570 --> 01:39:39,610
Oh my.
God fuck Sylvia Brown.

1664
01:39:39,690 --> 01:39:48,290
Anyway, so to recommend any
Britain and supposedly most

1665
01:39:48,290 --> 01:39:54,710
famous medium in England.
Let me say he wasn't impressed,

1666
01:39:55,590 --> 01:39:58,710
OK?
So she basically did everything

1667
01:39:58,710 --> 01:40:04,310
Houdini did when he did his fake
seances, doors opening, chairs

1668
01:40:04,310 --> 01:40:07,630
rocking back and forth, candles
flickering, the whole 9.

1669
01:40:07,630 --> 01:40:09,270
Yards.
But how do you make that fake?

1670
01:40:10,190 --> 01:40:13,950
What I don't know.
Magic.

1671
01:40:21,510 --> 01:40:23,950
Ohh, I said How do you make it
fake?

1672
01:40:23,950 --> 01:40:25,830
And you said magic.
There you go.

1673
01:40:26,790 --> 01:40:29,030
He stays friends with Arthur as
of this though.

1674
01:40:29,350 --> 01:40:31,510
Ohh, that's nice.
Like, he's still, you know, he's

1675
01:40:31,510 --> 01:40:34,310
still friendly with him.
He he's not like an asshole.

1676
01:40:34,310 --> 01:40:37,230
Like, you sent me to this person
and she's obviously a fake.

1677
01:40:38,030 --> 01:40:41,510
Like she's the most famous in
like England, though.

1678
01:40:42,270 --> 01:40:46,590
And she's obviously a fake.
Ooh, I mean, Houdini was a

1679
01:40:46,590 --> 01:40:51,430
famous magician, so yeah, she
should have known.

1680
01:40:51,510 --> 01:40:53,670
She should have, like, put on
her best foot forward or

1681
01:40:53,670 --> 01:40:56,030
something.
Like you can't be doing, like

1682
01:40:56,030 --> 01:40:59,590
the basic stuff you do for the
normies, like Harry Houdini's

1683
01:40:59,590 --> 01:41:03,550
coming to your show like get,
you know, give him the razzle

1684
01:41:03,550 --> 01:41:06,750
dazzle.
Yeah, Razzle Dazzle exactly did

1685
01:41:06,750 --> 01:41:10,510
not help her.
So the Doyles are visiting New

1686
01:41:10,510 --> 01:41:14,310
York.
The year is 1922 now, so.

1687
01:41:15,840 --> 01:41:21,120
Doyle and Houdini are attending
the banquet for the Society of

1688
01:41:21,120 --> 01:41:26,040
American Magicians when Houdini
says he'll demonstrate how a

1689
01:41:26,040 --> 01:41:32,320
magician fakes spiritualism.
He fakes.

1690
01:41:32,360 --> 01:41:35,920
He fakes spiritualist phenomena,
is what was said.

1691
01:41:37,840 --> 01:41:40,960
So Arthur obviously is upset
about this.

1692
01:41:41,000 --> 01:41:44,040
He says he didn't want to see
spiritualism mocked.

1693
01:41:44,680 --> 01:41:47,520
So Houdini does another trick.
He does a trick with his wife

1694
01:41:47,520 --> 01:41:52,880
and Doyle's jacket and puts her
in her chest and whatever.

1695
01:41:54,240 --> 01:41:58,360
So it is, it's a it's.
I'm pretty sure it's a great

1696
01:41:58,360 --> 01:42:01,120
trick to watch not to read
about.

1697
01:42:03,800 --> 01:42:08,120
So now they're in Atlantic City
same year.

1698
01:42:10,240 --> 01:42:13,640
And you know, Doyle is in the
Houdini's or I guess, yeah, she

1699
01:42:13,640 --> 01:42:17,760
still has a they're, you know,
they're at a hotel.

1700
01:42:19,800 --> 01:42:26,240
And Jean Doyle offers to help
Houdini commune with his mother.

1701
01:42:27,800 --> 01:42:33,200
Bad decision.
Houdini tries to be optimistic.

1702
01:42:34,000 --> 01:42:37,880
So, you know, during the seance
she uses automatic writing.

1703
01:42:37,880 --> 01:42:39,920
You know what that is?
Okay.

1704
01:42:40,230 --> 01:42:42,550
Awesome.
So it's for anybody who doesn't

1705
01:42:42,550 --> 01:42:46,870
know, it's basically just the
medium is like, I guess they're

1706
01:42:46,870 --> 01:42:49,510
communicating with the spirit
and then the spirit talks to the

1707
01:42:49,510 --> 01:42:50,910
medium.
You make yourself like a

1708
01:42:50,910 --> 01:42:54,070
conduit, yeah.
And you hold a pencil and they

1709
01:42:54,070 --> 01:42:56,870
close their eyes and then
whatever gets drawn that's

1710
01:42:56,870 --> 01:42:59,990
supposed to come from.
The Spirit.

1711
01:42:59,990 --> 01:43:01,590
The Spirit.
Yes.

1712
01:43:02,510 --> 01:43:07,270
So she wrote things, so words
and stuff for this one.

1713
01:43:07,470 --> 01:43:12,440
So she wrote things like.
This is from Houdini's quote.

1714
01:43:12,440 --> 01:43:14,960
UN quote, Mom, I think I
remember this one.

1715
01:43:15,520 --> 01:43:20,280
Things like I'm happy or it's so
different over here, you know,

1716
01:43:20,280 --> 01:43:28,000
vague messages like that.
Houdini both knows this, so for

1717
01:43:28,000 --> 01:43:32,880
one, Gene wrote in English.
Yep, I do remember hearing about

1718
01:43:32,880 --> 01:43:35,400
this.
His mom was like German.

1719
01:43:35,440 --> 01:43:38,520
Or something.
Houdini and his mom are German.

1720
01:43:38,760 --> 01:43:40,400
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I remember
those.

1721
01:43:40,440 --> 01:43:48,960
And his mom only speaks German
or spoke German, and on every

1722
01:43:48,960 --> 01:43:51,080
page there was a cross at the
top.

1723
01:43:51,920 --> 01:43:58,000
His mom was Jewish.
Didn't remember that one though.

1724
01:43:58,200 --> 01:44:01,040
I remember the fact that he was
mad because he was like if she

1725
01:44:01,040 --> 01:44:06,840
had said anything it would have
been in German, not in so

1726
01:44:06,840 --> 01:44:08,200
medium.
Who didn't know German would

1727
01:44:08,200 --> 01:44:11,200
have been like, I do not.
This sounds like she's growling

1728
01:44:11,200 --> 01:44:13,200
at me from the afterlife, if I'm
honest.

1729
01:44:13,640 --> 01:44:16,120
Listen, German is an aggressive
sounding language.

1730
01:44:16,200 --> 01:44:18,680
But you can tell what it is.
You can be saying like, I love

1731
01:44:18,680 --> 01:44:22,280
you and it sounds vicious.
Oh my God, just look it up.

1732
01:44:22,280 --> 01:44:24,840
This is just German is a
hardcore language.

1733
01:44:24,840 --> 01:44:25,640
Yes.
Nothing.

1734
01:44:25,760 --> 01:44:28,120
It's not cool.
It just sounds real intense.

1735
01:44:28,280 --> 01:44:29,920
So Can you imagine?
You're just like, all right, I'm

1736
01:44:29,920 --> 01:44:31,840
just going to listen and all of
a sudden you just hear somebody

1737
01:44:31,840 --> 01:44:35,530
like a DMX and in your ear.
Well, if she's being a conduit

1738
01:44:35,530 --> 01:44:37,770
for her, she could be able to
still write that stuff, though.

1739
01:44:39,010 --> 01:44:40,570
Do you know how to write in
German?

1740
01:44:40,610 --> 01:44:41,970
Okay.
But she's being a conduit.

1741
01:44:42,570 --> 01:44:45,610
The spirit is controlling her
hand, so she will be able to

1742
01:44:45,610 --> 01:44:46,930
true.
If she really was being a

1743
01:44:46,930 --> 01:44:49,330
conduit, then she would have
probably written in German.

1744
01:44:49,370 --> 01:44:52,770
Exactly.
Also, though, she just was not

1745
01:44:52,770 --> 01:44:55,010
being a conduit.
She was just trying to be nice.

1746
01:44:55,340 --> 01:44:57,820
Yes, and all you did was make
him angry.

1747
01:44:57,900 --> 01:45:01,820
Yes.
Also, the science was on his

1748
01:45:01,820 --> 01:45:06,420
mom's birthday and Gene or was a
bad time.

1749
01:45:06,500 --> 01:45:09,260
Or his mom did not mention it at
all.

1750
01:45:11,100 --> 01:45:14,460
When you know Houdini said this
to you know Doyle's.

1751
01:45:15,820 --> 01:45:18,340
You know, I'm pretty sure you
said it in the most politely

1752
01:45:18,500 --> 01:45:23,260
play the most polite way ever,
Arthur.

1753
01:45:23,820 --> 01:45:27,140
Is initially, you know,
defensive, of course, he said.

1754
01:45:27,300 --> 01:45:29,740
Houdini's mom could have learned
English in heaven.

1755
01:45:30,020 --> 01:45:32,580
Yep, I do remember hearing that
too.

1756
01:45:34,500 --> 01:45:39,700
And that spirits don't care
about the earthly calendar, so

1757
01:45:40,220 --> 01:45:42,180
she wouldn't bring up her
birthday.

1758
01:45:43,180 --> 01:45:46,340
Look, let me tell you something.
I'm gonna care about the earthly

1759
01:45:46,340 --> 01:45:47,500
calendar.
Yeah, right.

1760
01:45:47,540 --> 01:45:50,220
Listen, listen.
If you out, if I outlive you,

1761
01:45:50,220 --> 01:45:54,400
you best believe November 6,
2057.

1762
01:45:54,400 --> 01:45:57,480
I'm gonna be over here.
How you doing, Brian?

1763
01:45:57,480 --> 01:46:00,120
What's up?
Oh my God, yeah.

1764
01:46:00,120 --> 01:46:05,720
If you do a seance for me and
it's on 5720, like 87, yeah,

1765
01:46:05,720 --> 01:46:08,480
what am I over here cutting my
life down to only like 50 years?

1766
01:46:09,160 --> 01:46:13,240
On my birthday and you don't
bring me a gift.

1767
01:46:13,830 --> 01:46:16,070
I'm gonna come to the say on and
the first thing I was gonna come

1768
01:46:16,070 --> 01:46:18,190
out of my mouth is where's my
present?

1769
01:46:18,470 --> 01:46:20,550
It's my birthday.
What I'm supposed to give it to

1770
01:46:20,550 --> 01:46:21,990
you?
How I'm supposed to give it to?

1771
01:46:22,110 --> 01:46:24,550
You pour some lick it out for
me, all right, I.

1772
01:46:24,830 --> 01:46:28,910
I'll have a cup waiting.
I can pour one out for the

1773
01:46:28,910 --> 01:46:30,670
homie.
I can do that absolutely.

1774
01:46:33,110 --> 01:46:39,350
Now at this time, actually
forever, Houdini didn't think

1775
01:46:39,670 --> 01:46:42,150
that they were fakes or frauds.
You just thought they were.

1776
01:46:42,650 --> 01:46:44,690
Very self deluded.
Yeah.

1777
01:46:45,770 --> 01:46:47,490
So he was like she believes
this.

1778
01:46:47,530 --> 01:46:51,650
I just don't got no thank you.
Yeah, what a nice He still

1779
01:46:51,650 --> 01:46:53,090
really wants to be friends with
them.

1780
01:46:54,530 --> 01:46:59,850
So I mean, but the Doyles on the
other hand, for some reason

1781
01:47:00,330 --> 01:47:03,250
thought that Houdini was moved
by the experience.

1782
01:47:07,550 --> 01:47:14,430
Parser even went as far as going
publicly to say that Houdini was

1783
01:47:14,510 --> 01:47:25,030
a spiritualist believer that
we've gone too far.

1784
01:47:25,750 --> 01:47:27,950
So that was another bad decision
on his part.

1785
01:47:28,710 --> 01:47:31,790
Well, how do you speak for me?
How about that?

1786
01:47:31,910 --> 01:47:35,790
Yeah.
So Houdini was like, all right.

1787
01:47:36,930 --> 01:47:39,690
I've taken all I can stand and I
can't stands no more.

1788
01:47:41,730 --> 01:47:46,650
So he told the media that
spiritualism is a sham and those

1789
01:47:46,650 --> 01:47:52,170
who practice it are frauds.
And so a few starts between

1790
01:47:52,170 --> 01:47:55,810
these two friends.
Arthur would write that Houdini

1791
01:47:55,810 --> 01:47:59,490
was conceited and self
opinionated, and Houdini would

1792
01:47:59,490 --> 01:48:04,530
write that Doyle was seen now
and easily bamboozled.

1793
01:48:05,840 --> 01:48:10,400
They would roast each other this
way for a while.

1794
01:48:12,760 --> 01:48:17,280
I'm just saying that is a roast.
He's like you, easily

1795
01:48:17,280 --> 01:48:20,320
bamboozled.
You're a silly man, you

1796
01:48:20,360 --> 01:48:24,760
feebleminded.
Believe anything.

1797
01:48:24,760 --> 01:48:33,360
Pull the wool over your.
Eyes Ohh goodness so.

1798
01:48:35,030 --> 01:48:38,110
At this time, Houdini went on
his way to attend as many

1799
01:48:38,110 --> 01:48:42,390
seances as possible, so this is
when this happened.

1800
01:48:42,550 --> 01:48:45,670
To expose mediums.
All right then.

1801
01:48:46,630 --> 01:48:53,830
This man even would even where
this guise is, cuz after a while

1802
01:48:53,830 --> 01:48:56,270
people if they recognized it was
him they wouldn't do it.

1803
01:48:56,310 --> 01:48:58,710
They were like, I won't do the
seance if he's here.

1804
01:48:59,030 --> 01:49:01,990
We don't like his energy.
He would wear like must.

1805
01:49:02,510 --> 01:49:04,630
He is bad energy.
He's gonna block the.

1806
01:49:04,910 --> 01:49:05,790
Spirit.
Yeah, exactly.

1807
01:49:05,830 --> 01:49:07,510
Really.
He's gonna show them that you're

1808
01:49:07,510 --> 01:49:09,710
a fake and you're kicking the
table underneath.

1809
01:49:11,870 --> 01:49:15,510
So yeah, he we're like mustaches
and hats and like freaking like

1810
01:49:15,590 --> 01:49:17,990
other elaborate disguises.
Here's my thing, though, Did he

1811
01:49:17,990 --> 01:49:19,790
have a like a like a Russian
act?

1812
01:49:19,790 --> 01:49:21,870
Like a Russian?
Did he have a German accent?

1813
01:49:21,990 --> 01:49:24,390
I'm not sure I'm gonna say
'cause he lived in America for a

1814
01:49:24,390 --> 01:49:26,950
while.
Yeah, but so do you, like, lose

1815
01:49:26,950 --> 01:49:30,660
that 'cause if I mean, I feel
like if I'm a medium, but like,

1816
01:49:30,660 --> 01:49:34,700
no Germans, just none.
If you sign up and you are a

1817
01:49:34,700 --> 01:49:36,620
German, no thank you.
Racist.

1818
01:49:36,780 --> 01:49:39,460
No Germans.
Listen, I'm trying to keep

1819
01:49:39,460 --> 01:49:46,380
scamming people and the Great
Houdini is ruining my money.

1820
01:49:46,860 --> 01:49:50,780
Oh my goodness.
So when he would disguise

1821
01:49:50,780 --> 01:49:52,980
himself, you know, sit down,
he'd see something that was

1822
01:49:52,980 --> 01:49:56,660
fake.
He'd stand up and say I am

1823
01:49:56,660 --> 01:49:58,800
Houdini.
You are a fraud.

1824
01:50:00,920 --> 01:50:02,920
Okay you rip off.
That's a flax.

1825
01:50:03,160 --> 01:50:06,000
I just think he like, I imagine
just some ripping off his

1826
01:50:06,080 --> 01:50:08,360
mustache.
Yes, absolutely.

1827
01:50:09,160 --> 01:50:12,520
What if he wore his little like
Houdini leotard and he just,

1828
01:50:12,520 --> 01:50:17,880
like, pulled up his jacket?
I am Houdini.

1829
01:50:17,880 --> 01:50:23,320
You are a fraud, ma'am.
So yeah, he wrote a book called

1830
01:50:23,440 --> 01:50:26,680
A Magician Among the Spirits he
Called.

1831
01:50:27,520 --> 01:50:30,640
He called the frauds leeches
because they exploited grieving

1832
01:50:30,640 --> 01:50:35,000
people and he took their money.
Yeah, but you know, he didn't

1833
01:50:35,000 --> 01:50:37,160
give that book away for free.
Of course not.

1834
01:50:37,280 --> 01:50:40,320
I mean, no.
But hey, he didn't fake.

1835
01:50:40,520 --> 01:50:42,920
He didn't fake people out.
He gave him the tooth.

1836
01:50:43,120 --> 01:50:49,440
He gave him the tooth okay.
So there was a committee that he

1837
01:50:49,440 --> 01:50:52,920
joined that was part of the
Scientific American magazine

1838
01:50:54,400 --> 01:50:58,750
They.
The committee that he joined,

1839
01:50:58,750 --> 01:51:06,270
they had offered a reward.
Goodness, was it $2500?

1840
01:51:06,270 --> 01:51:10,190
Or?
Yeah, that's what it was, $2500

1841
01:51:11,550 --> 01:51:16,470
to anyone who could truly
demonstrate paranormal powers.

1842
01:51:17,710 --> 01:51:20,950
This just reminds me of the
people who don't like the

1843
01:51:20,950 --> 01:51:26,670
warrants.
Look look good, $500 Make a

1844
01:51:26,670 --> 01:51:32,070
Spirit of pair right here.
We're not touching that.

1845
01:51:34,550 --> 01:51:37,190
Oh goodness that.
That's kind of like the energy.

1846
01:51:37,190 --> 01:51:38,510
Though yeah, I know, it really
is.

1847
01:51:38,510 --> 01:51:40,990
Make them.
Come on, show them to me.

1848
01:51:41,630 --> 01:51:45,150
I mean, but yeah, like if you're
medium and you're trying to hold

1849
01:51:45,150 --> 01:51:48,950
a seance and you want me to
believe that is true, like give

1850
01:51:48,950 --> 01:51:51,110
me a spirit, give me like, give
me something.

1851
01:51:53,360 --> 01:51:58,360
So there was one woman who came
really close to winning this

1852
01:51:58,360 --> 01:52:02,720
reward.
I'm not sure if if you've heard

1853
01:52:02,720 --> 01:52:05,320
of this, this, this whole.
I remember this.

1854
01:52:05,400 --> 01:52:11,680
OK, so basically this is like
Houdini's greatest opponent in

1855
01:52:11,680 --> 01:52:17,080
the on the medium plane.
Her name was Mina.

1856
01:52:19,550 --> 01:52:20,510
Crandon.
No.

1857
01:52:21,550 --> 01:52:27,110
So but she was also named
Marjorie, just that was I guess

1858
01:52:27,110 --> 01:52:29,790
her Medium name.
Her people named her Marjorie to

1859
01:52:30,230 --> 01:52:37,430
protect her actual name.
So basically, for Medium to

1860
01:52:37,430 --> 01:52:41,110
receive this reward, Kunini
obviously had to be present for,

1861
01:52:42,390 --> 01:52:46,230
you know, their seance and he
had to know, like the people

1862
01:52:46,230 --> 01:52:48,960
that were going to be.
In the seance.

1863
01:52:52,120 --> 01:52:56,560
So she had been able to show off
her talents to many before, you

1864
01:52:56,560 --> 01:53:00,960
know, Houdini, you know, got
there and many believed that she

1865
01:53:00,960 --> 01:53:03,880
was like the real deal and she
was known.

1866
01:53:04,560 --> 01:53:11,200
She was known to hold her
seances okay.

1867
01:53:11,320 --> 01:53:16,000
So I'm not going to say this
yet, but I guess the way she was

1868
01:53:16,000 --> 01:53:19,330
dressed.
She would just dress in like a a

1869
01:53:19,330 --> 01:53:24,970
nice sheer type robe.
All right, yeah.

1870
01:53:24,970 --> 01:53:31,050
And Ghost in a show.
A lot of like, a lot of, I guess

1871
01:53:31,410 --> 01:53:38,170
I'm not gonna say men, but men,
they said that she was too good

1872
01:53:38,170 --> 01:53:42,450
looking for her own good.
That's a weird compliment.

1873
01:53:42,490 --> 01:53:48,940
Yeah, I saw.
I got to take off Rick.

1874
01:53:49,060 --> 01:53:53,060
Not all of us, but this is one
part of Wikipedia that she would

1875
01:53:54,620 --> 01:54:02,580
sometimes perform her seances in
the nude and she would even jump

1876
01:54:02,580 --> 01:54:07,660
into the lapse of the male
participants.

1877
01:54:07,940 --> 01:54:11,300
See, they don't even care if
they read me the spirits at this

1878
01:54:11,380 --> 01:54:15,620
point.
So yeah.

1879
01:54:16,760 --> 01:54:21,640
So there's this guy Jay Malcolm
Bird, who was a believer of

1880
01:54:21,640 --> 01:54:26,280
Marjorie's and also a member of
the Scientific American

1881
01:54:26,280 --> 01:54:28,560
magazine.
He wasn't part of this committee

1882
01:54:28,560 --> 01:54:31,280
that Houdini was on, he was just
part of the magazine.

1883
01:54:32,760 --> 01:54:37,400
So it's kind of a bit of a
conflict of interest, don't you

1884
01:54:37,400 --> 01:54:41,200
think not?
He was a believer of hers and he

1885
01:54:41,200 --> 01:54:47,630
was a believer of them titties.
I'm sorry, I'm just.

1886
01:54:47,870 --> 01:54:50,470
Saying he's a believer of hers
and he's part of this magazine

1887
01:54:50,470 --> 01:54:53,830
that they're holding a contest
for, like to watch her jiggle

1888
01:54:53,830 --> 01:54:56,870
and jangle while she pretended
to talk to the experience.

1889
01:54:58,190 --> 01:55:04,030
Now there are like there is
speculation that he was

1890
01:55:04,750 --> 01:55:07,750
enchanted by her.
That's what I said.

1891
01:55:07,750 --> 01:55:12,190
Didn't I say that?
Oh, he was.

1892
01:55:13,350 --> 01:55:18,750
What's the word sprung?
Yes, he was, but yeah, he was.

1893
01:55:19,310 --> 01:55:21,990
What's the word?
Typmotized.

1894
01:55:21,990 --> 01:55:23,390
It typmotized.
There you go.

1895
01:55:28,190 --> 01:55:29,790
I'm sorry.
I'm being crass.

1896
01:55:29,830 --> 01:55:32,390
Oh my goodness.
She literally didn't make it say

1897
01:55:32,390 --> 01:55:33,830
answers.
Of course he was.

1898
01:55:34,030 --> 01:55:38,930
Listen, I have eyes.
I would have probably been like,

1899
01:55:38,970 --> 01:55:40,290
oh, look at that.
Yeah.

1900
01:55:40,370 --> 01:55:42,570
Interesting.
Yeah, but her husband was always

1901
01:55:42,570 --> 01:55:44,930
in attendance with these seances
as well.

1902
01:55:44,930 --> 01:55:48,090
OK, I that don't mean I'm gonna
do anything to her that don't.

1903
01:55:48,290 --> 01:55:49,250
Mean.
I'm not gonna look.

1904
01:55:49,490 --> 01:55:50,530
Thank you.
I'm not gonna.

1905
01:55:50,530 --> 01:55:52,930
I'm gonna look at.
I didn't say I was gonna touch

1906
01:55:52,930 --> 01:55:53,610
her.
Oh, my God.

1907
01:55:53,690 --> 01:55:57,410
I would not violate her.
I would just stare.

1908
01:56:01,130 --> 01:56:03,650
Anyway, he told her about this
contest.

1909
01:56:03,970 --> 01:56:07,650
And you know, she agreed to
enter, so Houdini asked him.

1910
01:56:07,650 --> 01:56:11,850
He's like, so you think she
deserves this prize Bird goes?

1911
01:56:12,090 --> 01:56:14,490
Absolutely.
I wonder why.

1912
01:56:17,370 --> 01:56:23,050
So Houdini, Oh my goodness,
attends her seance first thing.

1913
01:56:23,810 --> 01:56:26,010
Well, okay.
So before he attends her seance,

1914
01:56:27,090 --> 01:56:29,450
he gets okay.
So this woman, she's from

1915
01:56:29,450 --> 01:56:32,560
Boston, Okay?
Oh, another Boston story.

1916
01:56:32,640 --> 01:56:34,680
Look at this.
See you how this happens

1917
01:56:34,680 --> 01:56:35,960
randomly.
So.

1918
01:56:37,600 --> 01:56:42,360
So he gets the Boston right with
his partner and the first thing

1919
01:56:42,360 --> 01:56:46,760
he finds out is that members of
the committee kind of took

1920
01:56:46,760 --> 01:56:56,400
bribes from the crandoms, like I
guess one of the other committee

1921
01:56:56,400 --> 01:57:00,240
members, he got a loan from her
husband.

1922
01:57:01,120 --> 01:57:12,080
And then Bird also got some type
of bribe thing, so he can't

1923
01:57:12,080 --> 01:57:14,240
trust anyone to be serious about
this.

1924
01:57:14,360 --> 01:57:22,080
Yeah, basically.
And of course, right.

1925
01:57:22,320 --> 01:57:24,920
I already said this.
Her appearance.

1926
01:57:24,920 --> 01:57:28,480
Enchanted bird.
I already said this enchanted.

1927
01:57:28,680 --> 01:57:34,830
By the titties.
So not getting one by me.

1928
01:57:37,390 --> 01:57:41,310
So I'm going to try to explain
how she did her seances.

1929
01:57:42,950 --> 01:57:48,270
So one part of it was that she
had this box.

1930
01:57:48,630 --> 01:57:50,070
Oh, you know what?
I think I have a picture of

1931
01:57:50,070 --> 01:57:52,150
this.
So she had this box, there's

1932
01:57:52,150 --> 01:57:56,550
this box and it had wires in it
and it it was like what was

1933
01:57:56,550 --> 01:57:57,990
connected?
And there was a bell.

1934
01:58:00,980 --> 01:58:05,500
And I freaking closed that damn
tab out.

1935
01:58:07,580 --> 01:58:09,780
Well, actually, that closed out.
No.

1936
01:58:09,780 --> 01:58:14,060
OK, so there was.
So this is a box, right?

1937
01:58:14,380 --> 01:58:18,060
The littlest wooden box she had.
And she'd place it on the floor

1938
01:58:18,580 --> 01:58:22,820
in like, in between her legs,
sort of like by her feet, Like

1939
01:58:22,820 --> 01:58:27,700
in front of her feet.
And she'd have her.

1940
01:58:28,000 --> 01:58:31,480
Arms like bound and her legs
bound so she couldn't really

1941
01:58:31,480 --> 01:58:38,880
move.
Okay them and I guess they would

1942
01:58:38,880 --> 01:58:42,960
turn the lights out and when she
would commune with the spirits,

1943
01:58:44,360 --> 01:58:46,000
I guess she'd have them ring the
bell.

1944
01:58:46,360 --> 01:58:47,800
And if there was a spirit there,
right?

1945
01:58:49,000 --> 01:58:53,240
Okay.
So where's the box?

1946
01:58:53,240 --> 01:58:54,280
You're supposed to show me the
box.

1947
01:58:54,600 --> 01:58:56,400
Wait, I'm showing.
No, I'm showing you like the

1948
01:58:56,400 --> 01:59:04,480
diagram of how it was.
So it was between your feet.

1949
01:59:07,480 --> 01:59:12,840
Now for this test to work, there
was one committee member sitting

1950
01:59:12,840 --> 01:59:16,080
on her on her one side and her
husband or somebody else sitting

1951
01:59:16,080 --> 01:59:19,240
on her other side, let me tell
you.

1952
01:59:19,870 --> 01:59:23,870
How extra this man Houdini was
Okay okay.

1953
01:59:24,990 --> 01:59:30,070
He.
I guess the day of the seance he

1954
01:59:30,070 --> 01:59:42,590
uses a What did he say it was?
It was a oh, I didn't write it

1955
01:59:42,590 --> 01:59:48,110
down, but he wraps like this
rubber band type thing.

1956
01:59:49,130 --> 01:59:52,770
Around his leg, like below his
knee, so that it would get

1957
01:59:52,770 --> 01:59:59,970
swollen and tender, so that when
he was sitting next to her he'd

1958
01:59:59,970 --> 02:00:04,370
be able to feel if she moved her
legs to try to ring the bell on

1959
02:00:04,370 --> 02:00:06,130
the box.
Right, So if she bumped into

1960
02:00:06,130 --> 02:00:09,490
him, it'd be like ow.
Well, okay, So here's how they

1961
02:00:09,490 --> 02:00:11,970
set it up.
Okay, Houdini's sitting on like

1962
02:00:11,970 --> 02:00:16,090
her left.
One side, I don't know.

1963
02:00:16,250 --> 02:00:19,250
He's sitting on one side of her
and he has a box between his

1964
02:00:19,250 --> 02:00:25,490
legs and I think it's Bird
that's sitting on her other

1965
02:00:25,490 --> 02:00:28,610
side.
So Houdini is holding her hand

1966
02:00:29,330 --> 02:00:33,970
to make sure she doesn't move,
and he has his ankle placed in

1967
02:00:33,970 --> 02:00:38,530
front of hers so she can't move.
So she can't move.

1968
02:00:38,610 --> 02:00:42,130
And here's the here's a picture
of basically how it looked.

1969
02:00:45,560 --> 02:00:49,360
Geez.
So yeah, and behind them was a

1970
02:00:49,360 --> 02:00:53,880
cabinet type thing.
It's like a divider, I guess you

1971
02:00:53,880 --> 02:01:01,400
call it so.
So he did this just to make sure

1972
02:01:02,440 --> 02:01:08,040
he could feel like any movement
from her at all because his leg

1973
02:01:08,040 --> 02:01:11,420
was so tender.
All right.

1974
02:01:11,580 --> 02:01:14,700
So, so he cut off his
circulation to try and.

1975
02:01:14,780 --> 02:01:16,820
Yeah.
All right, that was a whole day.

1976
02:01:16,820 --> 02:01:19,500
He had it on the whole day.
Jesus, I must hurt a lot.

1977
02:01:19,580 --> 02:01:22,860
And that night, that's when he
took it off and his leg was just

1978
02:01:23,900 --> 02:01:27,860
look like I said extra.
This is pretty his fault, Lord.

1979
02:01:28,980 --> 02:01:32,420
So of course during the same
houses this time they need the

1980
02:01:32,420 --> 02:01:36,380
lights off, so the lights go
down.

1981
02:01:37,180 --> 02:01:39,780
And sure enough, when the lights
go out.

1982
02:01:40,140 --> 02:01:44,340
He could feel her slowly but
surely, like moving her, like

1983
02:01:44,620 --> 02:01:51,060
inching her foot towards the box
that was between his legs, Like

1984
02:01:51,060 --> 02:01:55,220
slowly, like very slowly, like
so he like she didn't think he

1985
02:01:55,220 --> 02:02:00,820
could feel it.
And then when she got to the

1986
02:02:00,820 --> 02:02:04,900
bell or the box, she rang the
bell, and then he could feel her

1987
02:02:04,900 --> 02:02:14,010
slowly moving her foot back.
Or was he feeling his leg

1988
02:02:14,530 --> 02:02:16,930
throbbing from the lack of
blood?

1989
02:02:17,850 --> 02:02:20,490
I'm just saying.
He no.

1990
02:02:20,490 --> 02:02:23,210
He already took the band off
though, so it was back to

1991
02:02:23,210 --> 02:02:25,050
normal.
It was just swollen and very

1992
02:02:25,050 --> 02:02:26,170
tender.
OK.

1993
02:02:28,410 --> 02:02:30,610
Alright, alright.
Next part, OK.

1994
02:02:31,490 --> 02:02:35,530
There's another part in in the
seance is when she OK, so she

1995
02:02:35,530 --> 02:02:38,170
has like this spirit guide type
thing.

1996
02:02:38,290 --> 02:02:41,070
I guess it's.
Mediums have this sometimes,

1997
02:02:41,110 --> 02:02:46,110
yes.
And his name was Walter, and he

1998
02:02:46,110 --> 02:02:50,950
couldn't make things levitate,
so she had this megaphone.

1999
02:02:51,510 --> 02:02:53,270
That's not what spirit guides
do.

2000
02:02:55,870 --> 02:02:59,270
They're supposed to help you,
not perform tricks.

2001
02:03:01,350 --> 02:03:05,470
So she had this megaphone that
he would make levitate just to

2002
02:03:05,470 --> 02:03:07,510
make sure, like the proof that
he was there.

2003
02:03:07,670 --> 02:03:13,780
Okay.
So, like I said, so OK, so it's

2004
02:03:13,780 --> 02:03:15,700
still dark, right?
And I showed you the cabinet

2005
02:03:15,700 --> 02:03:17,500
that's behind her, like a little
foldable thing.

2006
02:03:17,780 --> 02:03:25,220
OK, so it's still dark.
And she asked Byrd to go the OK

2007
02:03:25,220 --> 02:03:32,980
Walter asked for an illuminated
plaque to put on top of the the

2008
02:03:32,980 --> 02:03:38,380
bellbox for some reason.
So Bert leaves the room.

2009
02:03:39,180 --> 02:03:50,980
And you can hear the cabinet
behind her like kind of crash or

2010
02:03:50,980 --> 02:03:58,700
move.
You said this was like they got

2011
02:03:58,700 --> 02:04:00,860
close.
How is this closed?

2012
02:04:00,860 --> 02:04:03,260
This seems like a complete farce
from the beginning.

2013
02:04:03,260 --> 02:04:06,420
What do you mean?
Yeah, Okay, you said.

2014
02:04:06,420 --> 02:04:10,860
Like this one almost made it.
No, it did because the reason

2015
02:04:10,860 --> 02:04:14,140
why it almost did is because
most of the committee members

2016
02:04:15,100 --> 02:04:17,340
that were there before Houdini
got there.

2017
02:04:17,930 --> 02:04:21,330
They were either bribed or okay,
I thought.

2018
02:04:21,330 --> 02:04:23,370
She had almost convinced
Houdini.

2019
02:04:23,410 --> 02:04:26,370
No, no, no, no.
So I was expecting some level of

2020
02:04:26,410 --> 02:04:29,410
almost realness.
This is just a complete lie.

2021
02:04:29,490 --> 02:04:32,690
No, no, no, no.
From the beginning he was like,

2022
02:04:32,690 --> 02:04:39,450
fuck this, but no.
So okay.

2023
02:04:39,450 --> 02:04:42,690
So Houdini is holding both of
her hands now because Bird's

2024
02:04:42,690 --> 02:04:48,050
gone.
And then the cabinet moves right

2025
02:04:48,250 --> 02:04:49,970
cuz he probably tripped and fell
on it.

2026
02:04:52,050 --> 02:04:54,370
You said it made a crash.
That's not how it's supposed to

2027
02:04:54,370 --> 02:04:59,370
happen, is it?
And then, OK, so after it

2028
02:04:59,370 --> 02:05:01,250
crashes, she gives Houdini her
foot.

2029
02:05:01,250 --> 02:05:04,130
So he's in control of both her
hands and her feet.

2030
02:05:04,130 --> 02:05:09,210
Now he's holding both of them.
Yes, at this after the crash of

2031
02:05:09,210 --> 02:05:14,610
the cabinet and it's still dark,
OK.

2032
02:05:16,470 --> 02:05:24,470
So Walter asked Houdini, where
would you like me to throw this

2033
02:05:24,470 --> 02:05:31,030
megaphone?
And Houdini says towards me, and

2034
02:05:31,670 --> 02:05:37,550
it's tossed at his feet in
Phoenix Wright style.

2035
02:05:37,710 --> 02:05:41,390
He's like, objective, you know
Phoenix Wright?

2036
02:05:41,550 --> 02:05:42,550
Yes.
Objection.

2037
02:05:42,710 --> 02:05:44,830
Objection.
That's what I meant.

2038
02:05:45,150 --> 02:05:46,710
I got you.
That's why I wrote too.

2039
02:05:46,710 --> 02:05:52,510
Objection.
Well, anyway, he says it throw

2040
02:05:52,510 --> 02:05:54,310
the lights on.
And then her husband was

2041
02:05:54,310 --> 02:05:55,590
standing there wearing all
black.

2042
02:05:55,630 --> 02:05:59,910
He says it's in his head.
He doesn't say it out loud, so

2043
02:06:00,350 --> 02:06:03,230
I'm guessing that the cabinet
was closer.

2044
02:06:03,350 --> 02:06:05,190
It was right behind her.
That's what I wrote, yeah.

2045
02:06:05,390 --> 02:06:07,070
He showed a picture of it.
It was right behind her.

2046
02:06:09,070 --> 02:06:13,290
So Houdini deduced.
Was that when Bird got up to

2047
02:06:13,290 --> 02:06:16,690
leave?
She tilted the cabinet and I

2048
02:06:16,690 --> 02:06:19,210
guess the megaphone was sitting
on top of the cabinet.

2049
02:06:22,610 --> 02:06:26,250
This is, this is.
I mean, it's out there, but it

2050
02:06:26,250 --> 02:06:29,130
could probably happen.
So she tilted the the cabinet

2051
02:06:29,130 --> 02:06:32,050
with her foot before she gave
her other foot to Houdini.

2052
02:06:33,130 --> 02:06:36,290
And on top of the cabinet was a
megaphone.

2053
02:06:37,130 --> 02:06:40,590
So.
When the megaphone fell off the

2054
02:06:40,590 --> 02:06:46,230
cabinet, it landed on her head
like a dunt cap, so she just

2055
02:06:46,430 --> 02:06:49,150
went boop.
And yeah, basically.

2056
02:06:49,230 --> 02:06:52,630
So once it landed on her head
and she, you know, Walter asked

2057
02:06:52,630 --> 02:06:55,390
him where she wanted, he wanted
the megaphone to land.

2058
02:06:56,750 --> 02:07:00,270
So she just freaking jerked her
head towards Houdini.

2059
02:07:00,350 --> 02:07:03,790
That's ridiculous.
And it fell in his at his feet.

2060
02:07:04,430 --> 02:07:10,340
This is what hey.
OK, so then what?

2061
02:07:10,980 --> 02:07:15,340
OK, so by this time, Houdini was
like, OK, she was, he already

2062
02:07:15,340 --> 02:07:18,780
knew she was a fraud by, you
know, by the end of all of that.

2063
02:07:20,060 --> 02:07:21,820
But they come back for two more
seances.

2064
02:07:21,860 --> 02:07:24,180
Well, actually, they no, they
come back for two.

2065
02:07:24,300 --> 02:07:28,700
They come back for more seances.
I wanna say two more that

2066
02:07:28,860 --> 02:07:29,980
sounds.
Awful.

2067
02:07:29,980 --> 02:07:33,580
I think they're like they're
they're at least two more.

2068
02:07:35,550 --> 02:07:38,310
So second one is more of the
same stuff.

2069
02:07:40,150 --> 02:07:42,190
The spirit.
Walter wanted to lift the table

2070
02:07:42,190 --> 02:07:45,190
that they were sitting at, so
everyone had to move back in

2071
02:07:45,190 --> 02:07:49,950
their seats, even Marjorie, and
then the table starts lifting.

2072
02:07:52,150 --> 02:07:55,190
Now, like I said, everyone had
to move back and everyone was

2073
02:07:55,190 --> 02:07:59,310
astonished.
Except for Houdini.

2074
02:08:00,920 --> 02:08:04,680
Because while the table was
lifting up, he was feeling under

2075
02:08:04,680 --> 02:08:09,720
a table, and that's when he felt
the head under a head underneath

2076
02:08:09,760 --> 02:08:13,560
of the table it was Marjorie's
head.

2077
02:08:14,440 --> 02:08:19,200
So what she had done was when
she moved back in her seat, I

2078
02:08:19,200 --> 02:08:24,760
guess she like leaned forward
underneath the table to like be

2079
02:08:24,760 --> 02:08:26,760
able to rise it up with her
head.

2080
02:08:27,000 --> 02:08:29,980
That's bizarre.
Very bizarre, but I'm guessing

2081
02:08:29,980 --> 02:08:34,220
these mediums had to find out
creative ways to fake these

2082
02:08:34,220 --> 02:08:36,220
seances.
This is weird MM.

2083
02:08:37,540 --> 02:08:43,300
HM so this right here is one
thing.

2084
02:08:43,660 --> 02:08:46,580
Was enough to debunker right on
the spot.

2085
02:08:47,460 --> 02:08:50,700
But the committee, you know, you
know, Houdini's like, yo, can I

2086
02:08:50,700 --> 02:08:52,460
just, like leave?
Can.

2087
02:08:52,500 --> 02:08:54,260
Yeah.
Can it, like, stop this because

2088
02:08:54,260 --> 02:08:56,300
this is freaking ridiculous And
the committee is like, no, no,

2089
02:08:56,300 --> 02:08:58,460
no, no, no, no, We gotta wait.
We gotta wait.

2090
02:08:59,260 --> 02:09:03,220
And they can use like, fucking
fine.

2091
02:09:03,460 --> 02:09:07,380
So they do another box thing.
This time, Houdini's wearing

2092
02:09:07,380 --> 02:09:11,980
like a a Garter belt because.
Just because.

2093
02:09:14,100 --> 02:09:16,420
And so he rolls his leg up
right?

2094
02:09:16,930 --> 02:09:21,650
And Margie is wearing her
stockings this time and he uses

2095
02:09:21,650 --> 02:09:24,530
his guarded belt just to catch
her stockings to make sure that

2096
02:09:24,650 --> 02:09:26,850
you know he can feel when she
doesn't move because he's not

2097
02:09:26,850 --> 02:09:29,410
going to, you know, cut a
circulation off again today.

2098
02:09:30,730 --> 02:09:37,090
He needs his blood to be flowing
so he he catches her stocking

2099
02:09:37,090 --> 02:09:42,410
when she starts to move and.
And she's like, are you wearing

2100
02:09:42,410 --> 02:09:44,730
your Garter belt?
And he's like, yeah.

2101
02:09:44,730 --> 02:09:47,210
Why?
And she's like, well, it's

2102
02:09:47,370 --> 02:09:50,570
cutting my skin.
Could you could you, like, take

2103
02:09:50,570 --> 02:09:52,530
it off?
And so he takes it off.

2104
02:09:52,650 --> 02:09:54,970
And then he could still move
her.

2105
02:09:54,970 --> 02:09:58,330
He could still feel her move her
leg to the bell and the bell

2106
02:09:58,330 --> 02:10:00,850
rings again.
So yeah.

2107
02:10:02,290 --> 02:10:04,850
So you think this is enough?
No, still not enough.

2108
02:10:08,250 --> 02:10:10,570
Next.
This is where the shake starts

2109
02:10:10,570 --> 02:10:12,760
getting.
Even more ridiculous, OK?

2110
02:10:15,200 --> 02:10:18,360
They construct this large box
for her to sit inside.

2111
02:10:20,120 --> 02:10:22,360
What?
There's a they they put her

2112
02:10:22,360 --> 02:10:26,960
inside a large wooden box trap,
sort of, yeah.

2113
02:10:27,320 --> 02:10:30,520
OK.
You know, only her head is able

2114
02:10:30,520 --> 02:10:33,480
to stick out in her arms, oh
Lord, so that they can still

2115
02:10:33,480 --> 02:10:35,640
hold her arms.
Oh my God.

2116
02:10:35,800 --> 02:10:37,520
And that she won't be able to
move.

2117
02:10:38,930 --> 02:10:43,690
And get out-of-the-box.
My goodness, this is insane.

2118
02:10:47,170 --> 02:10:52,930
So as the lights go out, the top
of the box is ripped off and

2119
02:10:54,930 --> 02:10:58,570
Marjorie says Walter did it,
Hoduni says.

2120
02:10:58,610 --> 02:11:06,130
This is fucking bullshit.
No okay, I appreciate this

2121
02:11:06,210 --> 02:11:09,250
statement from Harry Houdini
because it is bullshit.

2122
02:11:09,290 --> 02:11:13,570
Yeah, OK, so now in between
seances, the first one and the

2123
02:11:13,570 --> 02:11:16,850
second one, Bird is staying.
Well, actually, even before the

2124
02:11:16,850 --> 02:11:20,370
seances start, Bird is staying
with Marjorie and her husband.

2125
02:11:20,890 --> 02:11:25,770
Oh, OK.
And after the first seance,

2126
02:11:27,850 --> 02:11:32,170
Actually I think it was after.
Yeah, no after the second one

2127
02:11:32,170 --> 02:11:33,690
when he finds her heading to the
table, right?

2128
02:11:35,420 --> 02:11:38,780
He goes back and he runs and
tells Marjorie and her husband,

2129
02:11:38,980 --> 02:11:43,380
hey, he knows you're faking it
and he's going to, like,

2130
02:11:43,460 --> 02:11:47,820
denounce you.
So I don't know what to do.

2131
02:11:48,700 --> 02:11:53,060
So there was even an article
written by Bird at this time or

2132
02:11:53,060 --> 02:11:56,780
written, I guess, from him.
Someone else wrote it, but it

2133
02:11:56,780 --> 02:12:02,500
was, you know, his accounts
praising Marjorie and

2134
02:12:02,500 --> 02:12:05,950
newspapers.
Even printed this that she had

2135
02:12:05,950 --> 02:12:09,590
stumped experts and then she'd
even stumped Houdini.

2136
02:12:09,710 --> 02:12:12,670
No, that's bad.
Don't say that about him.

2137
02:12:13,470 --> 02:12:15,870
Houdini was fucking pissed.
He was pissed.

2138
02:12:16,950 --> 02:12:19,830
He was like, all right, yeah,
okay.

2139
02:12:20,990 --> 02:12:25,710
So after the first box attempt,
when the league got ripped off,

2140
02:12:26,230 --> 02:12:29,270
they'd added metal plates to the
side so they could latch it.

2141
02:12:29,270 --> 02:12:30,710
So we can't get ripped off
again.

2142
02:12:33,030 --> 02:12:37,150
So the second is it for the box
They exclude Bird from, you

2143
02:12:37,150 --> 02:12:43,430
know, all the seances.
And when Houdini used the box

2144
02:12:43,430 --> 02:12:47,630
again, Bird like, he busts in
and he's like, why wasn't I

2145
02:12:47,630 --> 02:12:52,350
involved in this one?
Houdini goes.

2146
02:12:52,430 --> 02:13:00,070
Hold on, it's on my phone.
Pull it up, you're so slow,

2147
02:13:00,070 --> 02:13:05,280
Okay, he says.
I eject to Mr. Bird being in the

2148
02:13:05,280 --> 02:13:08,120
seance room because he has
betrayed the committee and

2149
02:13:08,120 --> 02:13:11,480
hindered their work.
He has not kept to himself.

2150
02:13:11,680 --> 02:13:17,440
Things told him in the strictest
confidence, as he should as

2151
02:13:17,440 --> 02:13:25,200
secretary to the committee.
So he's like, you literally ran

2152
02:13:25,200 --> 02:13:29,600
back and told her all these
things that we were doing like?

2153
02:13:30,540 --> 02:13:33,420
He was like, he's kind of like
her accomplice in this whole

2154
02:13:33,420 --> 02:13:37,500
thing to make to get her to win
this money.

2155
02:13:38,100 --> 02:13:46,700
So, so after Houdini says this
bird he like, denies it.

2156
02:13:46,700 --> 02:13:48,020
Of course.
He's like, why you do that?

2157
02:13:48,020 --> 02:13:50,860
No, no, no, no, no, no.
And then he fesses up.

2158
02:13:50,860 --> 02:13:52,620
He's like okay, yes.
I just wanted to protect

2159
02:13:52,620 --> 02:13:54,500
Marjorie and stuff like that and
blah blah blah.

2160
02:13:55,180 --> 02:14:03,690
Then he quits Simpin extra.
So now she's in the box again,

2161
02:14:05,050 --> 02:14:11,050
and at this time, Walter starts
accusing Houdini of trying to

2162
02:14:11,050 --> 02:14:13,370
set Marjorie up.
Why?

2163
02:14:13,370 --> 02:14:15,010
How is she trying to set her up,
you ask?

2164
02:14:15,730 --> 02:14:20,610
He he accuses Houdini's
assistant, or yeah, assistant,

2165
02:14:20,650 --> 02:14:24,650
of placing A ruler underneath
the pillow that Marjorie has her

2166
02:14:24,650 --> 02:14:27,850
feet on in the box before she
got into the box.

2167
02:14:28,310 --> 02:14:35,950
So that she'd be able to use the
ruler to to what what he's

2168
02:14:35,950 --> 02:14:40,990
saying is that they planted this
evidence in there so that they

2169
02:14:40,990 --> 02:14:44,190
could say you had this in there.
So you use this to ring the

2170
02:14:44,190 --> 02:14:49,510
bell, right?
Now Moudini also calls bullshit

2171
02:14:49,510 --> 02:14:52,830
on this because he's like my
assistant didn't do this, blah

2172
02:14:52,830 --> 02:14:54,710
blah.
But later on there was a

2173
02:14:55,430 --> 02:14:57,590
interview with his assistant
that said that.

2174
02:14:57,970 --> 02:15:02,290
Oh yeah, we've also only put
that in there, and I bet you it

2175
02:15:02,290 --> 02:15:06,010
came out after he died.
But you know when he couldn't

2176
02:15:06,010 --> 02:15:09,330
defend himself?
Yeah, but a lot of people said

2177
02:15:09,330 --> 02:15:14,170
that that assistant, he wasn't,
he wasn't being honest either.

2178
02:15:14,490 --> 02:15:16,050
So no.
Yeah.

2179
02:15:16,050 --> 02:15:21,930
So no one really knows how that
ruler got there, Ghost.

2180
02:15:22,730 --> 02:15:26,690
Yeah.
So anyway, he, you know, Walter,

2181
02:15:26,690 --> 02:15:28,850
he curses Houdini out.
He tells him get the hell out of

2182
02:15:28,850 --> 02:15:34,890
the house.
So there's one more seance.

2183
02:15:34,890 --> 02:15:36,650
OK.
Oh my God.

2184
02:15:37,330 --> 02:15:38,650
There's one more, one more
seance.

2185
02:15:41,290 --> 02:15:46,290
So Houdini, this one Houdini is
there, is ready to denounce her

2186
02:15:46,290 --> 02:15:52,450
at, you know, publicly at this
event that they're at.

2187
02:15:55,850 --> 02:15:59,530
When, you know, she tells him
she's like, Marjorie tells him

2188
02:15:59,570 --> 02:16:03,650
she's like, I don't want my son
to hear that I'm a fraud.

2189
02:16:03,650 --> 02:16:07,890
And then Houdini goes, don't be
a fraud then.

2190
02:16:11,370 --> 02:16:17,050
So there's another cortraption
made to, like, house her.

2191
02:16:17,090 --> 02:16:19,250
House her Yes.
It wasn't like a box.

2192
02:16:19,250 --> 02:16:22,020
It was just like just.
Kind of like used to like strap,

2193
02:16:22,140 --> 02:16:29,220
basically strap her and so she
couldn't fucking move at all and

2194
02:16:29,220 --> 02:16:30,940
at the end of the seance nothing
happened.

2195
02:16:31,660 --> 02:16:34,219
Like nothing happened during the
seance because she couldn't do

2196
02:16:34,219 --> 02:16:35,500
nothing because.
She couldn't fucking do nothing,

2197
02:16:37,420 --> 02:16:41,820
so Marjorie didn't win the
prize, Bird was outed as an

2198
02:16:41,820 --> 02:16:44,459
accomplice of hers and Houdini
was satisfied.

2199
02:16:44,500 --> 02:16:48,620
Satisfied, I think, because he
debunked another medium.

2200
02:16:52,730 --> 02:16:56,410
So during her seances, this is a
little side note.

2201
02:16:57,889 --> 02:17:01,410
Marjorie had been able to
manifest some type of, like,

2202
02:17:01,570 --> 02:17:06,010
actoplasm from her mouth and her
vagina.

2203
02:17:06,250 --> 02:17:12,090
Oh no.
So it's been debunked as animal

2204
02:17:12,090 --> 02:17:18,450
tissue, so it's speculated that
she.

2205
02:17:19,600 --> 02:17:24,600
Inserted it into herself before
the seance, and then she would.

2206
02:17:24,600 --> 02:17:27,360
And then, just like the ping
pong ball in Tijuana, she went.

2207
02:17:27,959 --> 02:17:30,360
She, she, she, she'd whip it
out.

2208
02:17:31,160 --> 02:17:32,719
So yeah, that's a that's a
thing.

2209
02:17:32,840 --> 02:17:35,559
Very powerful Kegels.
Yeah, yeah.

2210
02:17:36,240 --> 02:17:45,400
So that's the thing.
Okay 1926 Houdini's constant

2211
02:17:45,639 --> 02:17:48,820
medium debunking.
With Houdini's constant medium

2212
02:17:48,820 --> 02:17:53,420
debunking, the US Senate holds
hearings to outlaw fortune

2213
02:17:53,420 --> 02:17:59,500
telling the bill was passed and
mediums were pissed.

2214
02:17:59,980 --> 02:18:02,299
Yeah.
Houdini received letters from

2215
02:18:02,299 --> 02:18:06,100
medium mediums predicting his
very violent death.

2216
02:18:08,299 --> 02:18:13,059
Oh, I think I do OK.
So let me preface this.

2217
02:18:14,750 --> 02:18:16,549
Preface.
I don't know why I said it like

2218
02:18:16,549 --> 02:18:21,230
that, but it's preface.
Houdini was known for being able

2219
02:18:21,230 --> 02:18:22,910
to take a punch in the gut from
anyone.

2220
02:18:23,950 --> 02:18:27,590
He did this by flexing his
abdomen, you know, tightening it

2221
02:18:28,110 --> 02:18:32,070
so he can be able to take a hit.
And he, you know, would take

2222
02:18:32,070 --> 02:18:39,830
challenges as well.
During one of his shows in

2223
02:18:39,830 --> 02:18:43,430
Montreal, the student wanted to
test this out.

2224
02:18:44,780 --> 02:18:50,139
So before the show, he goes to
Houdini's dressing room, sucker

2225
02:18:50,139 --> 02:18:55,139
punches the man five times in
the gut before Houdini could

2226
02:18:55,139 --> 02:18:57,580
prepare himself, you know, with
his flexing.

2227
02:19:00,820 --> 02:19:04,500
Afterwards, Houdini felt severe
pain, but he powered through his

2228
02:19:04,500 --> 02:19:09,020
performance.
Next few days he had a fever of

2229
02:19:09,020 --> 02:19:15,389
104 degrees Fahrenheit.
The cause was appendicitis, and

2230
02:19:15,389 --> 02:19:17,750
a doctor suggested surgery
immediately.

2231
02:19:18,990 --> 02:19:22,950
Houdini ignored him and
performed one more show.

2232
02:19:24,590 --> 02:19:28,590
During the show, he passed out,
was revived, and then rushed to

2233
02:19:28,750 --> 02:19:33,070
Detroit's Grace Hospital.
Now, even though the appendice

2234
02:19:33,070 --> 02:19:36,469
was removed, it ruptured and
developed.

2235
02:19:37,990 --> 02:19:46,340
Yeah, and it developed into
what's the word you're trying to

2236
02:19:46,340 --> 02:19:50,260
say.
Paratonitis, Peritonitis.

2237
02:19:51,100 --> 02:19:52,580
There you go.
Watch a lot of Doctor shows.

2238
02:19:53,900 --> 02:19:56,220
I feel a lot peritonitis.
There you go.

2239
02:19:57,300 --> 02:20:00,620
So he passed away on Halloween
at the age of 52.

2240
02:20:01,180 --> 02:20:03,500
Yep.
And now on Halloween, mediums

2241
02:20:03,500 --> 02:20:09,230
like to try and call him, which
is so disrespectful.

2242
02:20:09,230 --> 02:20:11,990
So disrespectful.
Anyway, he like you.

2243
02:20:12,630 --> 02:20:16,950
He didn't.
So there were rumors that

2244
02:20:16,950 --> 02:20:21,830
spiritualists killed him.
So apparently there was a book

2245
02:20:21,830 --> 02:20:23,590
that was also written.
I forget what the title was.

2246
02:20:25,990 --> 02:20:29,630
Apparently Spiritualists they
wrote about it's fearless in

2247
02:20:29,630 --> 02:20:34,350
Houdini in the book.
So apparently spiritualists had

2248
02:20:34,350 --> 02:20:37,150
a nasty habit of poisoning
people.

2249
02:20:40,430 --> 02:20:44,670
And there wasn't really an
autopsy to confirm that it was

2250
02:20:44,670 --> 02:20:50,790
appendicitis.
So it's kind of like maybe he

2251
02:20:50,790 --> 02:20:53,470
was poisoned, right?
Right.

2252
02:20:54,790 --> 02:21:01,190
So, yeah, poor Houdini.
Artsa Doyle and his wife said

2253
02:21:01,190 --> 02:21:03,590
that during their seance with
Houdini, you know, in Atlantic

2254
02:21:03,590 --> 02:21:09,660
City, his mother said.
That her son would die young.

2255
02:21:10,420 --> 02:21:13,420
But they didn't want to tell him
that, hoping that it was wrong

2256
02:21:15,860 --> 02:21:18,540
after the fact.
Hindsight 2020.

2257
02:21:19,900 --> 02:21:21,860
So over the next 10 years.
Houdini's wife.

2258
02:21:21,860 --> 02:21:24,940
This is the last part.
Houdini's wife would hold

2259
02:21:24,940 --> 02:21:28,340
seances on Halloween to contact
her husband.

2260
02:21:28,380 --> 02:21:30,060
Oh, I didn't know that she tried
to.

2261
02:21:32,340 --> 02:21:34,980
Yes.
OK, lady.

2262
02:21:36,060 --> 02:21:41,040
See.
Houdini gave her a code word to

2263
02:21:41,200 --> 02:21:45,120
use.
I would do something like this,

2264
02:21:45,800 --> 02:21:49,960
absolutely.
Before he died to make sure she

2265
02:21:49,960 --> 02:21:52,560
was really contacting him.
That's right.

2266
02:21:53,080 --> 02:21:59,480
None of the medium she had, like
Hold the Seances could ever tell

2267
02:21:59,480 --> 02:22:01,680
her the code word.
Do we know what it was?

2268
02:22:02,760 --> 02:22:07,340
No coconuts.
It's like everybody's like safe

2269
02:22:07,340 --> 02:22:10,420
for it is pineapple or some.
Bananas, yeah.

2270
02:22:11,140 --> 02:22:15,700
You know, I I have a like as a
last fuck you, I'm guess I'm

2271
02:22:15,700 --> 02:22:19,780
thinking that Houdini gave her
the password, like gave his wife

2272
02:22:19,780 --> 02:22:23,260
the password, but would never
tell the mediums this because he

2273
02:22:23,260 --> 02:22:28,660
just was like, fuck you.
Yeah, think about it.

2274
02:22:29,220 --> 02:22:32,060
Your wife says there's a special
code that I should know to meet

2275
02:22:32,060 --> 02:22:34,860
you.
He's like, fuck you, your butt.

2276
02:22:35,190 --> 02:22:42,030
Yeah, suck a Dick.
Oh goodness.

2277
02:22:42,110 --> 02:22:44,350
And that is my tail.
There you go.

2278
02:22:44,350 --> 02:22:48,310
It was a great time, you.
Got to learn some stuff about

2279
02:22:48,310 --> 02:22:50,670
Houdini.
I'm glad you enjoyed it.

2280
02:22:50,910 --> 02:22:52,510
I did learn some new things
about Houdini.

2281
02:22:52,550 --> 02:22:56,030
Yeah.
And just like we say at the end

2282
02:22:56,030 --> 02:22:59,870
of every episode, oh, I do have
news.

2283
02:22:59,870 --> 02:23:02,630
Oh, you have news.
I don't have any more serial

2284
02:23:02,630 --> 02:23:06,290
killer earrings.
What do you mean they're sold

2285
02:23:06,290 --> 02:23:07,570
out?
Ohh shit.

2286
02:23:08,330 --> 02:23:11,130
So yeah, sorry to anybody who's
listening.

2287
02:23:13,210 --> 02:23:16,570
I do still have the really cool
long knives though, the gold and

2288
02:23:16,570 --> 02:23:18,290
silver ones.
What the hunter knives?

2289
02:23:18,930 --> 02:23:21,050
Not the hunting knives.
The ones that are like super

2290
02:23:21,050 --> 02:23:24,010
long and shiny and like mirror.
Like ohh OK yeah.

2291
02:23:24,090 --> 02:23:26,050
Just ohh, those ones.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

2292
02:23:27,970 --> 02:23:29,970
So do you still have those?
But yeah, that's a.

2293
02:23:30,010 --> 02:23:31,450
Nice.
That's pretty awesome though.

2294
02:23:31,530 --> 02:23:32,650
You sold out?
Yeah.

2295
02:23:34,320 --> 02:23:36,960
God, so not too bad.
Not too bad.

2296
02:23:37,000 --> 02:23:39,080
No, not at all.
Gotta get somewhere in stock.

2297
02:23:41,000 --> 02:23:42,640
Brittany's like, no, I'm not
making any more.

2298
02:23:43,120 --> 02:23:45,320
We'll see, We'll see.
We might do something different.

2299
02:23:45,320 --> 02:23:52,720
Next time there you go, you
know, But as usual, if you are

2300
02:23:52,720 --> 02:23:55,440
listening on any platform that
allows you to rate or vote,

2301
02:23:55,440 --> 02:23:58,840
please do that.
We would appreciate it greatly.

2302
02:23:58,880 --> 02:24:02,950
Yes, please leave us reviews and
you can always e-mail us.

2303
02:24:02,950 --> 02:24:06,070
Like I said, if you live in
Shendoah Valley, I would like to

2304
02:24:06,070 --> 02:24:08,830
know if the Serial cat shaver is
still shaving.

2305
02:24:09,470 --> 02:24:13,430
That is caughtpodcast@gmail.com
please.

2306
02:24:13,470 --> 02:24:18,190
I wanna know if he stopped.
Are you the serial cat shaver?

2307
02:24:18,750 --> 02:24:20,510
Just listen.
I won't tell anybody.

2308
02:24:20,510 --> 02:24:22,550
You just tell me.
That would be awesome, yeah.

2309
02:24:22,550 --> 02:24:24,990
If you're the serial cat shaver,
please let us know.

2310
02:24:25,630 --> 02:24:27,270
We just want to know why.
I just.

2311
02:24:27,310 --> 02:24:29,710
I want a motive.
It was this just like some Joker

2312
02:24:29,710 --> 02:24:31,350
level stuff.
We're not going to turn you in,

2313
02:24:31,390 --> 02:24:33,030
I promise.
Absolutely not.

2314
02:24:33,030 --> 02:24:37,870
We.
Don't even live in Virginia and

2315
02:24:37,950 --> 02:24:40,590
you can always find me on
TikTok.

2316
02:24:41,390 --> 02:24:43,870
Last couple days I've been
talking about Munch housing by

2317
02:24:43,870 --> 02:24:49,910
proxy or factitious disorder in
true crime world.

2318
02:24:51,350 --> 02:24:57,320
Brian streams at Foxy Trainer on
Twitch.

2319
02:24:57,520 --> 02:25:01,320
Yeah, he does not do any tik
toks other than to promote the

2320
02:25:01,320 --> 02:25:03,560
podcast.
That's that's basically what I

2321
02:25:03,560 --> 02:25:04,360
do.
I'm sorry.

2322
02:25:05,080 --> 02:25:07,680
It's OK Media.
It's hard to have a lot of

2323
02:25:07,680 --> 02:25:08,880
platforms.
No worries.

2324
02:25:09,680 --> 02:25:11,720
I just don't know how to do it.
TikTok.

2325
02:25:13,000 --> 02:25:14,360
I'm 32.
Leave me alone.

2326
02:25:14,360 --> 02:25:18,200
I'm I am 33.
You know how to do it.

2327
02:25:20,040 --> 02:25:22,280
I'm an old man.
Ohh, stop it.

2328
02:25:22,280 --> 02:25:25,770
But yeah.
Ohh goodness.

2329
02:25:26,090 --> 02:25:29,650
But um this is a great night.
Yeah, we wish you all a spooky

2330
02:25:29,650 --> 02:25:30,570
week.
Yeah.

2331
02:25:30,570 --> 02:25:32,530
Have a great one.
Thanks for listening.

2332
02:25:33,810 --> 02:25:34,810
Good night.