The Bodies In the Barrels & spooky video games

0:30 Everybody in serial killer country. My name is Brittany. Ransom, my name is Brian jr. And this is when Killers get caught a podcast devoted to deep dives, into the lives of killers. We love to learn about every week. Brian and I will discuss two true crime stories that resonated with us and then I will lead you down the darker path of learning about who killer was how they grew up, have a killed and most importantly how they got caught. Then we have Brian to slow things down and give us a little bit of a paranormal palate cleanser as we talk about creepy things in life. Maybe the Paranormal, maybe a Cryptid, maybe just something weird. He found on Reddit, who knows, but this week on True Crime, I want to talk. Well, actually before we talk about your crime, just a reminder, you have only 10 days left to get anything from the mood new merch launch.

1:23 The a Squatch disappears. April 30th. That's all I'm going to say on that. Oh God. You got guys got like a, was it two weeks now? Yeah, less than two weeks now. Yeah, it's gonna be gone. I got to order another shirt then yeah. I was thinking about it, myself actually. Yeah, because the heavy tease, they they feel great. Colors are good to. That's what I really liked about this one. It really bright and vibrant? Yes, absolutely. But let's start with this week, in True Crime and I'm going to start with something that's actually really awful, but it was super intriguing to me. So, this happened only a couple of days ago. This woman was found in a hockey bag seeing her own basement. Is that your story too?

2:18 No, no, I read that one. I was like, this is a good one. It's weird. Right? So she's fighting a hockey bag in her own basement. Stabbed almost 60 times. This is in a suburb of New York City. The woman's name is orsolya Gaul. And she's a married Mama to her 13 year. Old son was upstairs in the house when this happened, particularly all the news articles were very like, I can't believe this happened in this 2 million dollar house. I thought that was kind of a weird thing to lead with, right? They performed a preliminary autopsy on orsolya. She's 51 years old, or was 51 years old. And there were 60.

3:05 Sharp blunt force injuries to her neck torso, and her left, arm her card or card, artery carotid, artery and trachea. Have been sliced. She wounds to her fingers in the palms of her hands defensive wounds. The interesting thing about this is that the day that this happened so it would have been two Fridays ago. She told her 13 year old son who was upstairs. He's in his room, I'm going to go see like a movie or show. Now the police have said that based on looking at like her cell phone. She went to meet up with another man, but they have no idea why? No one's saying that. This was like a fair type thing but they're not actually saying what it was. Either she met somebody else line. They were doing like a bumblebee FF thing so that you can make a new friend or something like that. Yeah.

3:59 Who knows but her husband and the older son who 17 were out of town because they were looking at colleges. Hmm, they don't know who this man is. Just that somehow he convinced her to let him into the house. Went down into the basement, stabbed her to death, shoved her into a hockey bag and then texted her husband, your whole family is next They didn't find her until the following day. At about 8 a.m. the bag itself, was not in the house, but they know that she was killed in the house.

4:41 The suburb is Forest Hills. For anyone who wants to know, just the the duffel bag was found about a half a mile away from the home. So he killed her, put her in a duffel bag and then just walked through the house. Like this. It might had this has got to be somebody this family new that's so bold, right? Yeah. So I'm reading this and it said that she disappeared some other times. Like she ran away or something. She was missing and she doesn't a 20. They just as report overeating that way. Okay, so there was also a surveillance will actually nothing else. Oh no this is even worse. I missed this detail the first time I read this article, it's just one sentence, which is that surveillance videos in the neighborhood.

5:33 Captured unidentified person, Wheeling a duffel bag down a sidewalk in about 438 about. So that means he stayed in the house with the child all day long. Oh, my God. Was this all for like 12 hours? He was just there, was he in the basement then? And the kid who probably was. Yeah. My God. Oh my God. That is ultra scary but then they said the thing that let them know that there was a trail of blood. Yeah. From the house to the dump site. Which means there was probably blood in the house to like just leading from the basement out through the house.

6:18 Oh, yeah, absolutely God. That's crazy. Obviously, the dad came back and he's just like worried because he's just like, was this an attack on our family? You know, and the police have absolutely no idea. What's happened is crazy. Hopefully we get some more information. That's death. I will keep an eye on. Yeah, absolutely. Goodness gracious. Brittany, no it's eat. Look. Okay. See I this is like the second stuffing story. I saw this week because he doesn't want some guys from his grandma into a freezer, a chest freezer.

7:00 Freezers are so popular. Those like square ones look but in your basement. Yeah, I have one already Easter so much extra food. Yes, we have one as well in the laundry room but it's just just, Why do people always put bodies in there? Why are the perfect size for a body? Remember that lady. I talked about on Tick-Tock last year. Who killed her husband in California? Drove across the country with him because her family needed her stored. The body. This happened in New England, stored the body in a Storage unit and paid for it and kept it plugged in for years. It wasn't until he was about to die, but she told her kids.

7:45 Oh yeah, I killed her dad, and he's in a storage unit. Oh my God, this is ridiculous. Oh, but this one's weird because the old, the grandma. She wasn't Dead when he put her in the freezer. She was, oh no, I died in the freezer. So, yeah. That's horrible. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's not my story this week. Okay. Then I have a lighter story this week, so a fourteen-year-old, Massachusetts girl is at home alone. Well, before she gets ready for school, I guess and she hears some commotion going on.

8:28 Someone has broken into her house. Okay, the garage And this Brave little girl, she grabs two kitchen knives. And scares off the Intruder. Oh hell yeah. We love to hear? Yes. She's apparently. This happened like 720. She woke up, she heard a sound and she's like she gets the knives and she just screamed at him. She's like I like get out of my house. You don't belong here and then the guy just Jets, he's 50 years. 88 years old his name was Joseph Ridge. In the girl's name.

9:12 Goodness gracious, where's he's too damn old. Heard a to be commit tax fraud or something. Right. Her name is Avery chrome mirror what happened core job for Mirror? Whatever. That's a good job Avery. Yeah, yeah and not only this, you scare him off, she got her phone out and she recorded him leaving in his car. So she got his license plate number and she called Maya. One. She was like, I got him out of the house. I scared him. Yeah. It was like, this is great.

9:59 This is all. Yeah. And apparently, this guy is Rich, he's been, he has a history of crime. I'm sure breaking. You don't just start robbing houses at 58 years old, you're not, you know what, I've had a long life as a janitor and now that I've retired, I'd To start breaking into people's houses at 7 a.m. yes. I just don't see it. No, no, no, no. He has a history of crime in and yeah, he has no connection to the family, which is weird.

10:40 So it's just a random house and he was like, hmm. I know they're not going to be home. So I'm just breaking their. Wait, why would you assume that people aren't home at 7:00 in the morning? People are generally getting ready for work. This is the worst side is the worst time. I would assume that nobody's in the house at 1 p.m. Don't assume that about my house though. Y'all we all work from home. We here and there are guns. Ends. I was just thinking I was like well if somebody broke into my house, my kids over my weapons are so they can easily imagine your two small children running. After a man with sword look here. They they they would they were listen they were wreck that man's ankles and me. Yes, he'd be scared as fuck and knee replacement. It's like it's like now you see running with swords. From eyes.

11:35 Real ring with the freaking Eagles. With the sword side, your legs and just flying at somebody. That's what my kids would be like I know you don't know. I'm talking about. That's okay. But those are good stories today. Yeah, well, we haven't. Talked about Australia and a while Brian. This is true. And so I thought I would bring us back to the land down under for a pretty cry. It's Christ is described as the crime That Shook Australian and I'm referring to a case known as the bodies in the barrels murders. Do you know anything about that?

12:27 No, that is a very long name. Well, they also sometimes refer to them as the snow Town murders, but it's particularly a Name because the remains were found in snow town but for the most part, the people were not killed there. Also, the people of snow town, do not enjoy the fact that their town is connected to this atrocity. It was one of the most reported murder trials. And one of the longest trials in American history, took about six years to handle all of the cases, against the four people involved. Today we're going to be talking about John, Justin bunting, Robert, Jill Wagner, James spiridonov last last kiss and Mark Hayden along with the 10 victims who were discovered in abandoned Bank fault in the city of snow town. And two, other victims, who were buried other locations. This was an exceptionally intense case because the ringleader of the group John, manipulated these much younger men into believing that the majority of the victims were homosexual.

13:35 Will pedophiles. And that it was a valid reason to torture and kill them. It's a particularly wild story and almost all of our Killers have connections to child abuse. So, I am giving you your trigger warning for that today. This story mainly revolves around John, Justin bunting, so we're definitely going to start with him. And then I'll add in the other players. So before John Justin bunting was the ringleader of a group of killers, he was just a little boy born in and Nala, Queensland. On September. 4th 1966.

14:15 He was an only child. And from the beginning, they were actually serious issues with his health. He wouldn't breastfeed and he wouldn't eat his parents. His mom had to almost hand feed him to make sure that he was like alive. And he was always very, very underweight. His father was just like this little eventually passed. I The kids got to eat eventually but finally Mom decide to take him to a doctor where he was put through all these tests and they sent him to a specialist who did a bunch more tests. And finally, when those results came back negative, the doctor actually just decided to do something. That was a little bit off the cuff. He had the nurse pull of smelling salts and for no one who's actually smelled.

15:00 Smelling salts, it clears. The room, it's really strong. And everyone in that room, parents nurses doctor reacted except for John. That was the problem he couldn't smell and he had never been able to. The diagnosis is anosmia AKA smell blindness, and if people don't know, having a lack of sense of smell, also impacts your ability to taste things as well. It changes how your experience with food is and Pretty much. What John's mom had to do, was figure out what foods he could taste and kind of get him some desire to eat.

15:43 But after that, did it did work out and he became, or at least he started to look like a normal little boy. He was raised in a really strict household where almost every moment of his day was pre-planned, but unlike most kids, he didn't really Ruble at that. He, he found comfort in the consistency as he Got older though. His parents did loosen his grip and when I say he got older, I mean like six or seven years old, they were like, you can go outside by yourself and the new rule was just be home for dinner. He was never late. And sometimes he would show up like a minute before the deadline just to make sure he was, always always following the rules, still comforted by routine, like when he was little Heading into elementary school, he was quiet, but friendly a pretty low Frills friend, which a lot of people prefer like this was not a kid who was clingy.

16:37 He was virtually friends with everyone and Elementary School and so he was always invited to everybody's birthday parties and even to go on holiday with other students families. That is not thing that we do in America. However, probably the single most dramatic moment in John's life happened in the summer of 1974 when he was eight. Years old. He and his friends were playing in the streets of Anala like little boys do, but it was really hot and so they ended up going into one of the boys homes to play in the basement around noon. His friends older brother kind of stuck his head in to check on them and John, didn't notice how his classmate behaved whenever the brother kept coming to the door, but the little boy was definitely scared. Eventually, the older boy came back. He had a rope in his Hands.

17:27 And was just like, do you babies want to play a big boy game? The brother, the younger brother said nothing and just looked at the floor, but John was just like I don't understand what's going on here. No, thank you. And the older boy, immediately, just like punched him and knocked him down. And while John had been in like little kid fights, this was different. This was like a real hit so he was not prepared for that. And then the older board actually went to stomp on his privates but John moved and ended up. Like like violent like leaving a major bruise on his thigh like his pants. Ripped, the boys pants.

18:12 John's friend and the younger brother to this awful, older kid, tried to run and up the steps back into the house and the teenager grabbed him by his legs. And that little boy, hit his face on the concrete steps. So he is completely knocked out that teenager tossed. His younger brother in the corner and stunned. John absolutely tries to escape the way they came into the basement through like the ground floor door. or the older teenager just kind of picked him up even though he was like yelling and screaming and walked him back inside, He proceeded to hit John again, and when John woke up, he was naked and tied onto a fold-out couch. It was pretty terrible assault.

19:04 Definitely, John said that he kind of disassociated during the first part of the attack just was being beat and called names and stuff. But he was well aware when the sexual assault happened and then the worst part about it was that he left and got some of his friends and came back with three more other teenagers who also sexually assaulted my God. Then they kind of untied. Em and let him redress himself, covered in blood and other gross things. He's an hour late getting home and his mother was like super upset. She said the dinner had spoiled.

19:46 And so she said I'm the bed without food and John went upstairs, kind of feeling nothing. The thing that made his mom. The most mad though, wasn't that he missed dinner, was that? He didn't tell her where he'd been and she was just like, where were you, what happened? And he was just silent. Upstairs in his room though. He didn't know how to tell his mom where he'd been or what happened who was going to believe? This one little eight-year-old boy versus for older teenagers from from that point forward, John change at first. His mom thought that he was upset because he was grounded but when his punishment was over he didn't go back outside anymore. That was because even though the town wasn't that small, it seemed like John couldn't get away from His rapists. So he just stayed inside the spark of fun and popularity, really disappeared.

20:42 If you talk to him, he responded but it was a little Halo. When he went back to school, the older boys had kind of poisoned a lot of the younger kids in all of a sudden, people were bullying him. The younger kids didn't know what happened, but they had seen the older boys. Pulling John. So, they were just kind of following suit. This one on for about a year and one of the older teen boys, stopped him one day outside of school and threatened to rape him. Again, if he told anyone like he said to John, I'll come to your house and I'll do it every week. If you tell anybody, boy hit him in the face and just like kind of demanded a response and nine year old John just kind of stared as rapists and and growled I hear you and it surprised both of them.

21:31 There was no fear in this little kids face, just loathing and hate one by one. All four of the rapist did stop and threaten him. But as far as John was concerned, he said that the worst thing in the world had been already been done to him so he wasn't scared of them. He just wanted to hurt them right started with however, burning ants nests and throwing rocks at neighbors cats and then finding animals, Is that weren't smart enough to be scared of him and he would capture them and break their necks imagining that he was breaking the bones of the teenagers who hurt him.

22:11 His grades tanked within three years, he was feeling every class except for chemistry. He really liked chemistry and he wanted to learn how to mix things to make late, lethal combinations. He started getting into fights with literally everyone even his teachers. When people tried to push him to do anything, he responded with an intense aggression. In John's head, he felt like he had done everything that he was supposed to do, all the stuff that is mom and dad wanted him to be. And that had made him weak and vulnerable, and he was never going to let that happen again. Now that of course build into his home life and his parents couldn't control him. He was only going to follow whatever he wanted. And he started skipping school staying out at night, he missed dinner. Sometimes he didn't come home at all. His parents were like, are you drinking? Are you doing drugs?

22:58 And he wasn't because he would never risk being under the influence and being vulnerable. It's really interesting that the John thought that isolated himself will protect him. But in fact, it did make him very vulnerable to being manipulated as John had created this little bubble. He lived in and he was really kind of desperate for someone older to be, kind to him, which is when he met Betty man in his 30s they met just after John turned 13. Oh, it's dark one night. Yeah, that's a good job was. Yeah, it's mighty is this will not be a positive relationship.

23:42 Hello. So one night it's like the middle of night and John's walking around a park not far from his home and Benny sees him and it's just like hey you want to avoid the parking lot. There's a lot of gay guys around this area. You know looking for people and Betty was like listen they'll try and rape a cute little thing like you and Benny was definitely trying to steer him, but John just responded. Let them try, I'll fucking kill them. Which Benny was like, oh wait, this kids. Cool. Betty was a white supremacist and he was covered in Neo Nazi tattoos and he believed gay. People were the worst people of all people. So that became the Friendship bond between the two of them because as far as John was concerned, his rapists Were Gay and pedophiles so Benny and John want me to be around town smoke. Some cigarettes Trash, Talk gay people, like I said, he didn't see the difference between the random gay guys in the park and those teens who assaulted him five years before and then it made it even worse some of the men in the park would hit on him.

24:53 Knowing he was a team and that just further solidify The ideology that these men were just like his rapist. So they kind of created a sort of lure, they use John as bait. They would lure a gay man to a remote alley, and then beat the absolute crap out of him. From 13 to 15 years old. John started focusing on gaining muscles. Pretty much his best. You classes were Jim and chemistry. He agreed to play sports, so he could use the gym. And his teachers were like, is he, is he making a turn for the better? Is he trying to be a better student? They didn't realize that what he was actually doing was trying to make himself stronger so he could beat him or gay people.

25:38 In a weird sort of awful way. As he got taller and more muscular, the men in the park were less interested in him. Hmm, and so, because he looks more of a listen, I it's weird that we've had two cases back-to-back. I did not know, I knew about this case, and I knew that I didn't know that John had this history until I dug into it, right? So inadvertently, we came I came across two killers who have skewed perceptions of homosexuality and it affected their life. Goodness. Okay.

26:19 Well John begins. Developing his interpersonal skills. He becomes downright charming and charismatic. See, Benny could never pretend long enough to rope in one of the poufs, as he called the game and in town John however, became a very talented liar. It was almost like he could turn his feelings off or on and an instant, ABS one for a while Benny and John Rabe the gay men they'd be tan and it was a good con they made lots of money. John was actually kind of bothered by the fact that men were so attracted to him and he found the idea of a man.

26:59 An to touch him to be revolting, which is not surprising from someone experiencing an assault at a young age. I mean, I'd be bothered if, if I was at that age and then we're hitting on me as well. Not gonna lie. Oh, yeah. But what he decided to look into was, he was just, like, do girls like me, too. And so at about 15, he kind of reached out to his friends from school. And the thing was, he had isolated himself. They were like totally open to being friends with him. And so he started hanging out with his friends, going to parties, the girls at school were, like, he's fit. And we're very interested.

27:45 He did do some normal teen stuff, you know, have some beer, smoke a little bit, hang out with in a month. John had a girl who was willing to sleep with him. He enjoyed the moment, but like it was really him trying to see if he could do it, because he was afraid that he was gay. Because of what happened to Henry. He really didn't care about the girl at all and virtually ignored her afterward. Oh no. She thought she saw him out after his 16th birthday and I was about 4 months later and she was very pregnant. Oh yep. John had already quit school and he was looking for a job and he was just like, I mean, if you want me to, I'll marry you and she was like, oh no.

28:38 She was fine being a single mom but she wanted money for the baby. So because John had all this beat up, gay people money. She assumed that his family was wealthy because he always had this money to spend. She was very surprised to learn that his family were just like basic working people. He told her that she and the baby would never suffer. He took the first job he could to get so you could pay child support and that was at the local crematorium. It was virtually a job that nobody in town wanted John was pretty fine with the day-to-day operations of preparing remains for cremation and he was really strong, big strong enough that he could pick up a Coffin by himself and his Bosses were like he seems like a trustworthy man young man. So they would let him prepare the bodies by himself and that's when he started stealing the gold fillings in people's mouths when nobody was looking for.

29:36 So he could sell the gold. His boss is definitely thought he was doing something illegal but there was never enough evidence and they needed him since a most of the people who worked on staff were older people and he could lift the bodies like by himself, right? In the span of about a year, John becomes a father moves out into his own apartment with some of his former classmates finds a good job and still has time to arrest an abuse gay men in his spare time. To be fair though it was much less often Benny had stopped reaching out as much. He he said that he just lost the fire and being a Neo-Nazi homophobe. It just takes a lot out of it. Does it down?

30:20 Occasionally John would show up. At Benny's house, you know, drag him out for old time's sakes. It was a lie, though. He hadn't lost the fire. The fact was that he was sick and he didn't want to spend the last years of his life being a hateful piece of crap. Oh okay. I can understand that he had throat cancer and eventually he did tell John John was a loyal friend. The only friend who visited him in the hospital even though he hated hospitals and then one day Benny just never woke up again. No. John wasn't there to see The Old Man Died. He went to Benny's apartment to pick up all of the literature that Benny had, that might make him look bad. He took it to his apartment and he left out the Tamer propaganda, so that his roommates could see it, but that he hid the stuff that was really bad. You know, this is the equivalent of make sure you clear my browser history.

31:20 All right, all right. Jonathan tried to live a normal life but he was fixated on the subject of pedophiles. Like his roommate said that he was obsessed. To the point where it got to the point where like what they'd be drinking and he'd be like, pedophiles everybody be like? No, stop. Like they were just all yell at him to stop talking. It's like, it's like when I go out drinking I'm like Pokemon. I'm like, no. Gotcha. But is his group of friends drank? They spent nights like young people do, and then the mother of his child showed up with his two-year-old daughter. Sorry, two-year-old son.

32:08 I don't know why I wrote my notes. Now his ex I won't say x. His former one night stand would stop by and frequently to pick up money and to let him see a little boy. But this meeting was different. She brought the boy so that John could say goodbye because they were leaving and moving to London. Oh yeah, he was as big upset with between this and that Danny's death. He went into a, it was a total downward spiral quits his job at the crematorium and he's just at home and he's depressed, and he's angry.

32:50 And then one of his friends Kenny read. Is this like, what if we just go somewhere else? And he was like yes let's do that. So they make a plan and sell off all their stuff by a crappy car and they're just going to drive to the West Coast driving to the West Coast of Australia from there on the east coast is like me saying, all right? Brian, we're gonna drive to California, so I thought, yeah, it's probably far as hell. It's really far and they did not have that much money. In fact, the road trip did not go Oh, very well at all. Just before John left. He did visit his parents told him. He was leaving.

33:31 He give him a call. When he got wherever he was going note, I have not mentioned his parents name. I think, right? I wonder why they don't want to be. They don't, they don't want to be a part of the story. Six different books. Not a one time. Was this? This is these people named, you know, they really sound. Like, stay went, probably to Great pains. They probably changed their names. A lot of it happens a lot, but you do a road trip is not go. Well, none of the rooms were particularly experienced drivers. The path to get out. West is in some places, very rugged. They ended up looping around looping around ultimately, they ran a gas money, and they end up pushing their car into the city of Adelaide now. So I've sent you In our chat, Brian a screenshot. That is the bizarre path that these kids took, they didn't go west really, they went mostly South. What the heck about 2,000 kilometers from Anala to Adelaide?

34:42 It's like, as far as the rut, like, there's a whole two-thirds of the country left, they did not get anywhere near. They said they wanted to, that's like is driving. That's, that's like a, that's a route to our West Virginia. If you're from, where were ya, Maybe it's not that. I mean I would say that that looks like from where we are right now, we went South towards Florida and then made an Abrupt turn left Kentucky and now we're in like Kentucky or Mississippi like completely off and we're like we went West I mean sorta you meant Midwest. Thing is though a delay was a much bigger Community than the 15,000 people in Enola.

35:29 Adelaide actually, almost had a million citizens in 1984. This was what they were dreaming of, they just didn't realize that it was so close. Most of him and his friends had jobs within the first 24 hours. A lot of the guys are working in a bar, the girls were out of work. That shops John actually didn't find a job right away. He walked the city. The first night looking for signs of gay men. He like notice their Hangouts and spots and then he realized, holy crap. This isn't like an all at all here. Gay men, just kind of walk around like it's normal. They were holding hands. It was definitely a bit of a culture shock. Don decided that if he was going to continue being a violent homophobe, he was going to have to change it up. The police allowed this which meant they were in on it and he wouldn't just be walking around the park. The other thing was, he does friends may have traveled together but they weren't all living together. And generally what would happen in this situation, was that someone would get a job, they would get a contract and then you could take that contract to a landlord and be like, look, here's proof that I'm working, but I don't have the money now and that was good enough to get you into a place. Back then really know three months rent to move in. That's interesting.

36:49 So most of his friends had done that and John had spent his time prospecting, he didn't want the high-paying labor jobs or the bartender gigs and then walking down the street. The following morning, he found it. An abattoir AKA a slaughterhouse and almost called to him the blood and the screams. Is of the animals. In fact, most of the livestock in Southern Australia passed through a delayed. So there were a lot of slaughterhouses and there was a lot of work. John began working for South Australia, meet Corporation, almost immediately. And his like first hour, he was there, he impressed his bosses with a very natural Talent with a knife. They said that he moved like a chef no wasted motion, very efficient.

37:40 And so, they decided to put him on a production. Mind to test him that day. There were people. The production line is where the first kill happens. When the animals come in and they're still alive. Don't you went first? Okay, do not worry about people murder yet. Okay, but like, this was where like the solder house the bosses would put you to see if you could handle it. He cut the first throat of a living animal. Animal, without even flinching manager, were like pet. We found a good one. What is hiring papers in hand? He meets up with his friend, Kevin read and Kevin's girlfriend, their jobs didn't really pay as well as John's. And so, they were like, listen, we can get a place together and you can kind of sleep here, too, and it'll help you afford this place that we want.

38:33 So, John didn't really care. He was like, I'll sleep on the couch. I don't care with three rents, they had more than enough money for the one bedroom and a whole lot of income for booze and fun. John used his extra money to collect weapons. Neo-Nazi magazines and his friends were like, Ah, that's the John. We remember, he actually got into metalworking and started taking classes at a local college and he bought lots of tools for his classes. Kevin, and his girlfriend, use their money to begin nesting. They got a puppy and they bought pillows and cute things. Additionally enough, the thrill of killing animals, sort of dampened.

39:15 After working at The Slaughterhouse, he didn't really have a He didn't get the throw any more. He was feeling restless those because you were doing, yes, a job now. So obviously, he's going to be any fun anymore, his work friends, loved him and his bosses gave him raises and it just didn't fill the void for a bit. He kind of came to terms with the fact that maybe he just wasn't somebody who got to be feel satisfied in life. Also working at The Slaughterhouse, he didn't have a chance to meet a lot of girls because everybody thought that job was pretty awful. But while he was his college classes, one day, he met a girl Veronica trip and she got to see John at his best.

39:57 He attentive a good student kind to his classmates really dedicated to learning and his teachers were totally like in love with him because he didn't just want to know how to use the blowtorch. He wanted to know how it worked. And teachers, always loved students, who take extra interest in the class true, his class, his classmates were kind of lackluster. Early preparing for like, an entry-level job. But John was studying so hard. It was it was like he knew that he could do something really great with this, if he just mastered it. Veronica was drawn to him. And he turned that same kind of focus that he had on class on to her.

40:42 And when someone showers you with that kind of attention, It's Kind of Wonderful. Today, we might talk about like, love-bombing and being worried about it. But this was like a fire between the two of them, they got married a couple months later, their reception was at a couple of bars battle made. And most of the people there were people who were As part of like they just for people who like flocked to John, because he was just this intense man. Veronica was so into him. As she didn't even realize that her first night being married, she was gonna be sleeping. On the couch problem. Was one bedroom is much too small for two couples and John didn't want to leave his friends without rent money, but he was definitely annoyed that Kevin wasn't going to move to a bigger space.

41:33 He also kind of came and it also was a weird thing because his work shift changed and he was working nights and everybody else in the house work during the day. And so he was always coming home to an empty house. He never got time to see Veronica. And one time when he was at home trigger warning, the dog dies for folks who are worried about those kind of triggers. John used his blowtorch On Kevin's daunted. Yes, he did for fun and then he buried it before they got home and then he told them that there had been an accident while he was welding. Instead of denying it, he just kind of sat there silently as Kevin's girlfriend lost her mind, she was she was yelling at him, accusing him crying and his friends had never really seen John like sit there quiet.

42:32 So they were like oh this obviously affected him really bad and they eventually were like, you know, he would never just kill an animal because it didn't like him because that dog never liked him. This event. However, ruined their little family that they've been building even after Kevin's girlfriend calm down and Veronica and John moved to a suburb of Adelaide called Salisbury North. It's a they bought a big beautiful Bungalow but it was much lower class than Adelaide. There was less of a community in this place and most people were just barely scraping by the area is plagued with drugs crime homelessness illness and John loved it.

43:18 So we'll change gears and we'll talk about our next member Robert Jill. Wagner born November 28, 1971, Robert had a pretty awful childhood marred. With moments of his father's extreme abuse. He was covered in scars so it is no surprise that when Robert was 13 year old and he met a older queer man. He was the Perfect victim to be groomed that older, man was Berry Lane berry lived on Bingham Road and he had just served a prison sentence for raping two. 12 year, old boys, when he meets Robert, my God It was about 6 foot tall, and he often wore women's clothes, and sometimes I buy the name.

44:08 Vanessa, he described himself as a transvestite. And so that is what I will do. Barry was not a well-liked person and Roberts parents didn't like the two of them spending time together. The relationship by today's standard would be absolutely statutory rape Robert kept running away from home to be with Barry. It was a weird dynamic because the the Wagner's were trying to rein their son in Um, what Robert had kind of fun, Ally Roberts, parents were worried that if they reported Barry, he might run away with their son. At least, if they allowed it, they knew where to find him, he was a phone call away.

44:49 Very cooked for him, and in some ways cared for him. In the ways of his parents, didn't eventually the Wagner's gave up. Robert Asian to adulthood with his wife. Vanessa and no one in town really bothered to think about it. After Robert was 18, Passes. Yeah. Absolutely. It's 1991 and 24 year-old John and that 20 year old. Robert neat just as John moves into Salisbury Barry was surprised because it was kind of like John was well known as being an anti-gay Nazi, but John and Robert became friends right away.

45:34 Robert saw and John, somebody who'd made it through terrible things. And emerge with the strength that he just didn't have John was funny, he was bubbly. He was like a almost a brotherly kind of friendship. Their John's wife Veronica was pretty used to this this is this was what would happen. People would meet John and they were just kind of fall for him but in like a friend way. Hmm. John invited, Robert and Vanessa to the house once he and Veronica got settled and the house was already Veronica was more than it was. Very worried when Robert should up with a beer and this very obviously cross-dressing Vanessa arrived John ignored.

46:17 The fact that Vanessa was a 40 year old man who is crass and rather unpleasant and instead focused his attention on Robert, the two bonded over the fact that they were abused as children. When Robert mentioned that he'd been 13 when he and bearing that Veronica John's wife was like shocked and appalled for John though it's little fight. Exactly what he guessed. He didn't drop his cover though and Veronica. Was frankly surprised that John wasn't going off on one of his pedophile tangents and instead was playing a good host. When this man just admitted to grooming his fiancee Like everybody knew John hates pedophiles more than anybody else.

47:02 But when Robert and Vanessa left arm and our John, looked at him and just said, he'll get his, don't you worry? But December of 1991, the Bunting family is fully settled in. Robert has a new best friend. John's friend Circle was pretty much everyone who had fallen through the cracks and life or people with very extreme political views. His own little crew who had been abandoned and hurt by Society. The closer that Robert got to John though, the more strain, the relationship with Barry became Barry wouldn't even like, Barry was like, that kind of partner who is jealous kind of or nervous or insecure and won't let you go anywhere without them.

47:45 So whenever Robert went to John's house to hang out with him, Barry had to come to and his plan was to be as awful as possible whenever he was around, John to try and get him to snap. So that Barry could be like, listen, see your friends. A horrible guy should like stop hanging out with them. the problem was John was very controlled and Frankly Barry was on the list of people, he wanted to take care of, but he had his eyes on someone else. The man who would become his first victim Clinton, Tracy's, Clinton was kind of caught up in the era of John and so he didn't notice things changing. Originally when John would go on these anti pedophile ranty just like get up and leave like it started innocuous.

48:33 John would pick on Clinton. He called him happy pants and it didn't really mean anything. But you know when someone's trying to insult you. Yeah and then like when Quentin would leave and the he was around all the other people John would like mimic Clinton and like Bend his wrist and of course all the other lackeys just laughed. As John start focusing more on his desire to kill. He got less interested in the slaughterhouse. He went from being the best employee to being the worst name. Very short time. Some of it had to do with being surrounded by people who were like Bottom Feeders in the community. But I think the real change had to do with the fact that he now had new plans and North Salisbury.

49:16 John thought that this was an opportunity to indulge in what he really wanted to do. Veronica was worried because we had bills to pay and he quit his job. She complained more and she just felt more distant from her husband, John Clinton, Robert and Barry would just sit around the house. All day watching TV while she worked now. John hadn't forgotten about bury the child molester, but he knew that he couldn't do anything to bury as long as Robert was still dating him. August of 1992 would be around the time that John realized.

49:59 His own Darkness. I need to hurt to feel better about what happened to me. Killing animals doesn't do fix it anymore. So he kept bullying Clinton and one day, Clinton tried to like laugh it off and John responded. You think this is funny to you. You think it's funny to touch little kids that can't protect themselves? Clinton was super thrown off as would any reasonable person would be if someone just toss this accusation at you, right? Yeah. We talking about, dude, so Clinton was like, fuck off and John got up and went outside and grabbed a shovel. And before Clinton knew what was happening, John swung, the shovel at the back of his head.

50:43 Clinton landed face it. On the carpet blood dripping, from a fractured skull. He looked up at Barry and was just like, fuck you and then John said, fuck you. And hit him again, banging his face so hard into the floor, that it broke his teeth. Robert started screaming and freaking out, but Barry was like, no, no, no. You need to stay cool because he buries an ex-con, and he knew that bare minimum. If this came out, both Berry and John are going to jail and he thought that Robert just needed protection. So, Johnson Robert to get the tools to keep them preoccupied, they put the body in the back of a pickup truck drove on a one North out of town.

51:30 They got to lower light. Township dug a shallow, grave drop Clinton's remains in the hole and no one smoke Robert rationalized that John must have learned something about Clinton to make these accusations. No normal. Person will kill somebody just because they were born. That was August, 31st 1992 would be almost a year or two years before his body would be found on August 16th 1994. After this Berry changed his whole Mo in terms of trying to make John mad. Good job, really rants.

52:12 They were accusations and he knew that John knew something about him and he had every reason to be afraid, he stopped going to John's house with Robert and that was really all they needed eventually the two of them broke up. As for August 31st, 1980 to Veronica, comes home to an empty house with her rug gone and John doesn't come back until about 3:00 a.m. he smelled like beer and she wasn't even going to bother asking where he went Veronica was in a bad place. At this time they were growing apart. He wouldn't even answer her. If she asked him questions every time she thought about leaving it was like he sensed it and there he was charismatic and funny and reminding her why she liked him in the first place. They had virtually no sex life.

52:56 Life. And John, didn't push her or bother her about it? He assumed that he would just go somewhere else. And so, he started hooking up with a woman in the neighborhood named Suzanne Allen. It wasn't really a proper Affair, it was just sex. And when he would go visit her, he tell Veronica, he was visiting his friend Ray, who lives in a shed, and he lived in an RV in behind, Susan's house. This one on for years. Also around this time, he meets Elizabeth Harvey and when he meets Elizabeth Harvey, he treats her like a queen almost the extreme opposite of how he was treating Suzanne.

53:36 Of course just like Veronica was, love bombs. Elizabeth is swept up in all the attention but she was worried that he would go back to his wife and she didn't want to introduce him to her son and she was like he's gonna This will make him run away the exact opposite happened. Elizabeth Harvey. Son is James Moustakas. If you remember James is one of the four Killers I listed at the beginning of the episode. Actually my God, they called him Jamie. And when John met Jamie, he, they were drawn together because just like both John and Robert.

54:18 Jamie had been abused to Jamie was born, James spiridonova. Last was takas On December 24th 1979. Jamie very similar to Robert had been abused when he was a young boy. This was by both his father and step brother John immediately saw Jamie as the kid. He was before he had taken control of his life and began hurting the people who heard him and he felt this deep need to make Jamie just like him. Within a year, he asked Elizabeth to marry him. He did not inform Veronica of this at all Veronica. Realized he was having an affair, but she had not to bring it up.

55:02 And then one day, Elizabeth and just shows up with a moving van Wie after house. Yep, this lovely Dan with his fiancee andronica blamed herself. She was the one who stopped initiating. Sex. So he'd gone to somebody else. John acted. Like nothing changed Veronica. Tried to be okay with this but she couldn't she still very much love John but she couldn't handle being treated like this. So she started staying with her friends and family. First it was for a couple days then weeks and months after about a year of Ronica stopped coming home at all. This was great for John. Elizabeth had been a really terrible abusive relationship beforehand.

55:46 So when she got into relationship with John and this is how he said it, okay, you ready? She knew just how bad things could be. That's not a good thing. No, he used this to his advantage and urge her to be more submissive and more subservient and to do anything that would make him happy. Oh yeah, he's a whole scale predator on multiple levels. It's 1995, it's a great year for John, then Jamie moves in after another fight with his father. And that was when John began the indoctrination. It was only two years since they first met and Jamie just visited but Jamie loved John like the dad. He never had this was like the friendship he had with Robert way more intense John showed Jamie how great it felt to hunt and kill animals.

56:45 He skinned a cat alive in front of Jamie the next time Jamie joined in just 22 to make his father figure happy. Now by this time quitting trustees have been found but he put in that grave for two. Ears and his remains were almost skeletonized. The police had no leads, and they had done for the previous eight months. It took them so long to identify him because his face was shattered and his he's missing teeth, even when they put Clinton's name on the news though. No one came, no one said anything. He had very few friends and his family didn't even know he was missing because he had a falling out with them if that corpse had never been found, no one would even known that Clinton was dead. Andrew.

57:29 Only though, Clinton have been receiving a benefits checks but we would call SSI here in the US and those were piled up in Clinton's apartment. It was definitely more common for someone to kill someone a collect the checks but that's dump the police more, right? It was such it was such a conundrum that they put Clinton's case on Australia's most wanted the to find the person who killed him and as that show airs John leans over and says to Jeanne. I did that one. Pat. Oh wow. Okay, family concerts quietly for a moment. And then Elizabeth says, good on you. And so, John takes that just goes running, can't have him run around touching kids.

58:12 Can I not? When all it takes is a good whack to stop him. The police knew about him and they did nothing. Everyone around here, knew what he was up to. They all knew and they just let it happen. I didn't let it happen. I wouldn't ever let somebody hurt kids. That that that that was for Jamie. Hmm. That was that little dies from the show. So Jamie was like, good on you John. That was with Johnny to know that he was Secure in his home. He just needed some victims to Dole out his misplaced righteous Vengeance. So John started collecting the names of queer men, living in the area. He's still very much connected. Homosexually the pedophilia. What you should not do.

58:54 And some days when he was mad, he would call these people on these lists, he made and like screaming. At them. His next victim ended up being Ray Davis. The man Dave, he's the man who live behind Susan. Suzanne Alan Ray was 26 at this point one day, he heard a loud noise outside of his trailer and he rushed out fully naked and Suzanne's. Grandkids were their kids were super grossed. Out. Their mom was Furious. The whole neighborhood was talking about it by the time that Berry Lane heard. The story. It had changed to the point where it was like, this deeply troubled, mentally, disabled, man, tried to force himself on Suzanne's grandkids. Ray was already on John's list but because he because he was friends with Barry but this sealed the deal. John knew that both Barry and Suzanne had had sex with array. So he didn't really trust them to be honest about Ray. He does seduce Suzanne again and believing that once she got some D, she'd be honest during pillow talk. Suzanne said that her grandkids have been propositioned by re and to John that was still worthy of death. So it's December 1995.

1:00:08 He goes to raise house in the middle of the night, praying with him. Robert, Jamie and Elizabeth John and Robert entered, a trailer, pick him up, drag him through the backyard and down the street and to John's house, they March him into the bathroom tie, a rope around his neck. Robert Held it just enough to immobilize him but not kill him. Beat him with a cricket bat. He hands the bat to Jamie. Jamie follows suit, Elizabeth kind of inspired by the years of her at the hands of men like Ray grabs. One of John's wrenches and begins hitting right to they cut off some of his toes and torture him for about an hour and then they hang him in their bathroom. And they dig a grave in their own backyard and put right inside of it.

1:00:56 John was definitely worried. This was too much for Jamie. But that was the moment that Jamie let out some of his rage for what happened to him at someone who the town said was a pedophile, Elizabeth helped by throwing out raise things in the morning. Suzanne was pretty happy to see that the RV was gone. They stripped it painted it and sold it. And if Suzanne Ever Wanted about it, she never said anything there. John So now John has a sturdy crew. Someone want to fill in the follow him anywhere, right? Right. Had been the perfect victim in John's eyes. He was a real predator.

1:01:37 On top of the satisfaction of murder. John also had some money because they sold the RV. And raised benefit checks were still being mailed to Suzanne's house. John pretty much had the same kind of iron grip over. He had his Suzanne before. So Unfortunately, Suzanne had experienced a fair share of abuse by men in the past, and John was just another man who abused her. We don't know for sure if she was taking the money from Ray or like if she was in on the fraud, but we do know that she never told the police. Anything John would stop by, pick up the checks, cash them in to raise account and then take the money out with the bank card. John decided it was at that moment. He needed to move.

1:02:26 So he got a house in a much more peaceful area, Murray Bridge, which is about 70 miles, east of Adelaide. Much bigger house on a much bigger piece of land and there wasn't a corpse in the yard. Oh my God, oh my God, the new me, the new owners. Oh yeah, they eventually. Oh yeah. All of this was really to make sure they didn't get caught for Ray's death. Just because he moved to a nicer suburbs. So didn't mean he spent any less time in Adelaide though he was stopped by pick up those checks from Suzanne. Say hi to Robert ledbury Lane know, he was still around. now, one of the men who was often seen in the company of John was Mark Hayden, Mark wasn't as tightly.

1:03:17 Well I couldn't acted to John at this point. I'm and that was the only because after John moved Mark Fell in Love with the lady named Elizabeth and Elizabeth did not like John any time at John won anything to do with her boyfriend. Elizabeth was opposed. She also wouldn't make fun of him. It appears at least one woman in North Salisbury was immune to his charms. Here you go. Now, John knew he'd lose, Mark, if he went directly at Elizabeth, so he decided to get close to her via her sister Jody. And he did this by being especially kind to Jody. Son, Fred Brooks. Who was young, disabled. Born disc with a disability?

1:04:00 Yeah. He looked at Elizabeth life and if there was somebody in her Circle who was a little bit weak or needy, he filled that void for that person, like kind of making himself someone that you couldn't untangle from Elizabeth's, friends and family. Elizabeth is like, since we're getting married, we should move to a better place and marks like that makes sense. So they move out of Adelaide. John is livid. He spent hours ranting and raving to people, they all hung out in Suzanne's house now because they had no other house to hang out in the problem was with hanging out at Suzanne's house was that like their relationship had never been more than stop by have sex you leave.

1:04:51 So now he was like there all the time and it created, this weird tension in the relationship. Now what comes next? We have two different stories. There's a version that they decided on in court and one that is believed by people who live there. At the time. The Salisbury rumor version is that John and Susan had a big fight. She threatened to turn him into the police for killing Ray and he killed her in the court version. John stopped by walked in and Suzanne was already dead in her bedroom. She was an older lady died. From natural causes whatever happened. The following was the same, John was like, no one needs to know that Suzanne. Has dead. She's still getting raised checks. She's getting her own benefits Jack because she's were tired, and I want all that money.

1:05:35 So, he dismembered Susan in November of 1986 wrapped her in a plastic bags and waited until night opened up. Raise grave dropped Suzanne inside. Oh my God. Suzanne's rent was being paid for by the government. She had fought with her family, so much. Nobody liked her. John just had to make sure She picked up her mail and no one asked questions. He gained access to her accounts, through her papers at home, and it was more than enough money for his family to live on. And for him to spend frivolously with his friends, who only issue was that he didn't want the money to go directly to him. So he decided that Mark Aiden would be a good Patsy for that.

1:06:19 He was like listen you don't have to do anything else, just let the money come through and then help me with some purchases. So they bought a couple of properties. They would buy things that the group needed some money. Went back to John so that he could pay, you know, the mortgage. This is where snow Town comes in. Now, still town was a very small agricultural community. That wasn't doing the best financially at the time and you still get enough, it's better now than it was 20 years ago at the time. It was becoming a bit of a ghost town. And there were so few people there that the bank on Main Street had closed and the locals had to travel miles to either the city of kadena or Crystal Brooks, do their banking when Mark and John John saw it though. They were like, this is a good building. The rent was way too high for a town, this small, which is why I had probably closed, but what, the money from Ryan Suzanne this more than covered it inside.

1:07:18 It was like, the 80s exploded inside this building, but John didn't really need it for upstairs. He wanted it for the vaults. A place where he was going to be able to kill and also dispose of remains because in John's brain. If there was nobody there was no murder. I knew it is so terrible. So he buys all these different acids from different chemical companies across the country, he gets a different member of his group to do the purchases, they bring it to the Vault. He brings in these giant plastic barrels and he pours the acids, the stuff in them and seal them.

1:07:58 There were easily a dozen barrels. Would they were so big that? He would be able to put more than one person in them? John was actually so happy with this plan that he made a mistake. One day when he was cashing the checks, he actually put his own name on the back of Suzanne's check and cash it in Murray Bridge, instead of Adelaide, the police came to his house and John was like, why are there cops here? He's about to just like haul off and start murdering them. And then he like, calm himself down. He told the police. He's been Francis, whose and for many years, he helped her with her finances because she's an old lady. The police didn't check Suzanne's house, they didn't ask her if she was getting the money that he was cashing for her. The police were Like this complaint didn't come from Suzanne.

1:08:42 So obviously, she's fine with it. What the hell? What? I'm hold on. I'm surprised even cast. A check when he signed it. She has to sign it. The hell. Is that just different obviously, I'm smarter than y'all. Yeah, I think they didn't catch that one and they like just went. Hey, why is your name on the check? Okay. So remember that like list of people that he said were pedos that came to this house to but it got its own room with a board and names and strings from people to people and connections. Oh God no he literally made like a police board but it was like a pedophile board know where they hang out and all this stuff. Yep.

1:09:27 God. He also harassed these people a lot more he would call them in the middle of the night just like scream that they were pedophiles and then he would take Jamie and Robert they break into the These peoples houses and then like vandalize them, but the victims have reported it because they were scared. And like, once the word pedophile is spray-painted across your house for the neighborhood to see that's all the community needs to know, right? That, there's an accusation. So John asked Barry, if there are any rumors and the gay community is there anyone, you know, doing something they shouldn't. So Barry always had information but Barry was specifically giving him names of people who made him mad. So, John fixated on Michelle Gartner born Michael. Michelle was 19 and she actually dressed and behaved. Like not like Berry like Michelle was living as like a young woman.

1:10:27 Barry was jealous of her. He viewed Michelle, as like a younger better-looking version of himself, and it's wild because Barry's idea of like, he was like, Michelle's gonna see robber and they're gonna get together, and it was totally misplaced jealousy. John, had trained, Robert and Jamie to look at people like Michelle as the same as their prior abusers, Michelle got kicked out of her family's home. After coming out, she rented, a room from a woman who treat her better than her own family. Um, John learned that many of the prior tenants just disappeared in the night and so they were like if Michelle disappears. Maybe the landlady will assume the same thing, but then they realize that Michelle was getting benefit payments and that sealed the deal that was like oh there we go, there's our catch. Okay, hmm.

1:11:20 I mean, I just want to say well if she's being treated like really well Buzz about the person that you live I'm with why would he think that she would just run away? That's just come to bite him in the butt. You're all right. Okay. I was about to say because on their own or part, it just doesn't sound like it's smart. So they abduct Michelle September of 1997, Robert fueled by hatred for Barry. Actually took control of this one Roberts, like he took advantage of me when I was 13, groom me. And while I can't undo those seven years, I can stop people like them from doing the same thing to another Child. They stole as much of Michelle stuff as they could to make it look like she ran out in the middle of the night and took her to snow town where they tortured her worse, than any of the others, they added electrocution via a car battery, and they would do this for about an hour. I know that it's about an hour because they would play a live album called Throwing Copper, which is about an hour long. After a while John choked her to death, and then they pushed her down into the acid Barrel to attempt to dissolve her. Now, they kept Michelle's ID, so they could try and get the checks and cash them.

1:12:37 And they discovered that they didn't have Michelle's wallet, which was still back in the room. Now, the problem was, it's already the next day, so Michelle, her landlord checked on her and was just like, this doesn't seem right? In fact, she goes to the police and reports that her ten of his missing. The Police are like she probably just left the landlady reached out to Michelle's friends and no one had anything to say but they thought she was a little bit too involved, two days. After this appearance, John comes back and sees that Michelle's room is cleaned up. That means the landlady probably has the wallet with her and John's like a have to get to it. He didn't know anyone who could pass for like a 19 year old girl and making direct contact with the already suspicious landlady, was definitely not. Okay.

1:13:24 So, He convinces. Mark's sister in law, her son Fred. To call the landlady and explain that Michelle had to move because of her family, but she was safe down a new city, but she needs her wallet so that she can get her benefit checks, the landlady's. Like, I don't believe it and she's like a shell will contact me directly. If she wants it back, they have fried make these calls all week long and finally, the landlady agrees to a meet-up, but John's like, mmm. We're not going and he was right to be suspicious, because she actually brought the police with her to the Meetup site.

1:14:11 They abandoned the wallet and the benefits cam. What happens next though is that when Barry realizes that the last person that he told John was a terrible person is now gone. He's like oh no I'm in danger. Barry is deeply lonely and he's actually quite scared and pushing 50. So obviously the right thing to do is to reach out to a local 18 year old Thomas travillian Thomas was very mentally ill and he was prone to walking the neighborhood in full combat fatigues. He had been deemed unfit for military service and this had been like his childhood dream and so once he couldn't do it, it kind of became an obsession. He would just like train constantly and like walk around and fatigues.

1:15:06 One day, December 1977 Berry invites Thomas to have a drink in the back garden and the to do. Hit it off Thomas had been training for quite some time. So he was young and fit which obviously Barry had a thing for and as for Thomas someone in the neighborhood, treated him with respect and like he was a person. It wasn't romantic at first but eventually Thomas moved in with him Barry. Felt safe enough to talk about the crew and all the rumors with John and Things began to circulate from North Salisbury and they were directly from the mouth of berry Lane. It was enough to stop John from choosing a different victim and to paint a Target on bearing.

1:15:52 Of course, yes. John had thought that killing Clinton in front of Barry would get him to shut up, but obviously, he had not learned. So, it's about a month later after the last murder, October, 97, Robert and John. Shut up on Barry Stewart. Step with the six-pack. He's willing to chat asking about all the rumors. What Barry didn't know was that John had already gotten to Thomas and told him about how Barry had groomed, Robert So, Barry sitting in the room not realizing that all three people are and on about he's about to die.

1:16:32 Thomas actually is the one to restrain him. They dragged Barry to the house phone make him call. His mother tell her that he's moving to Queensland. He doesn't want anything to do with her anymore. That he didn't forgive her for how she didn't talk to him years ago for being gay. This is the last time we'll ever speak Barry's mom actually told him that she loved him and then Robert hung up the call. They did a number on Gary. They gagged him crushed all of his toes while he was alive, telling him that he was a pedophile. The, entire time, Robert did the majority of this torture. Then the bits of berry that were left were wrapped in plastic putting Barry's car, and they dropped Thomas off at his apartment. Helped him move.

1:17:17 All of his things back in and get them settled, then back at the bank, fallen snow town they quickly throw Barry in the band with Michelle. This is great. Now they have Barry's house has a base of operations and they could sell all the crap didn't like and clean out his bank account too. But now we have another problem. The Australian Department of Social Services contacts. Susan via letter and says, we need you to tell us that John is allowed to cash your checks. It had taken them a year to realize that something was wrong. On top of that Thomas travillian is trying to break under the pressure. This is a young man with a lifetime of mental illness is not the person you want to be holding the secret that you helped kill his boyfriend.

1:18:04 So John and lists Jody Elliot marks Elizabeth sister, they're not married. So she's Elizabeth Hayden. Now, the woman who hates John. She's like, brings in the sister to help to truly get her under his spell. He starts another weird relationship with her. I wouldn't call an affair because John said that he cared, absolutely nothing for her and that he had to force himself to have sex with her, but that it did make Joy. Jody loyal to him because she believed there was a real relationship. That's according to him. Don't quote me on whether Jodi believe that it was a real relationship or maybe she was just you know having a little fun either way though he asked you to call the office and impersonate Suzanne, he did not like the fact that he had to hand this job to somebody else. But Jody did it and that was all they needed. And like they had all her paperwork so they she could answer all the questions, right?

1:19:02 Okay. Now John decides, he needs to tie up the Loose Ends of this Thomas trillion. So in November 5th 1997 he and Robert go to talk Thomas had been a month since the murder and he was a wreck. He was Nam confused. Could barely speak almost catatonic. John pretty much just went come come with me in my car and I drove out past Adelaide into the woods of curs Brooke set up a noose and Stage Thomas's suicide. He was found later that day by a passing hitchhiker. They only learned that Thomas is one of John's victims later, because John kept newspaper clippings of all his murders. All of the members of Jon's crew were dealing with Incredible demons.

1:19:52 And John was using these murders to deal with his hurt, and it appeared that Robert was on board with him. Jamie, this is this now stepson sort of was on board. He'd never been there for a murder and he definitely agreed. That pedo should die. But Jamie was now in his late teens and hardcore doing heroin. To just kind of make it through the day and deal with the demons John was not, okay, with drug addicts. He believed that losing control of yourself, was the worst thing you could do. So on top of that, Jamie doing drugs meant that, he had a loose end and unreliable member of the team Jamie knew about the things that happened and when addicts get caught they snatch on people true, they start dear dude that looks get loose.

1:20:42 So John went to get rid of the heroin and Jamie's life and he discovered that Jamie like to do heroin with one of his friends gavin.porter and Gavin need a place to stay. So John was like, absolutely. You can come stay here with us. His idea was he can he's Jamie off the drugs and back into the boy. He was before he Grandin bared, it for, as long as he could until he came one day at home. One day, sat down on the sofa and got stuck by a used needle. That was it. He called Robert and he came over. They open the back door of Gavin's car, choked him with a tire iron.

1:21:22 To the point where it almost broke and almost like broke Gavin snack. Yeah Robert actually brought one of the barrels. They put Gavin in along with a tire iron drove just no town. By the time they get the barrel inside, John had pretty much like he'd pulled so hard, he had pulled a muscle in his arm and shoulder so he had to actually have Robert do the chemical mixing robber. Dropped him off at home and he walked in to a Jamie waiting for him. Jamie had questions. Where's Gavin? Why is this car here? John kind of pushed all the questions off and he's just like we'll talk about it tomorrow, but Jamie took off that night on a bender when Jamie got home about three days later.

1:22:03 Gavin's car was gone. Sold off the to at a very peculiar conversation where Jamie's like, it's not that I was mad at you. I was mad that my friend is dead and then John goes on, like a weird rant about drug use. Ultimately Jamie was only like 19 and this was the only guy who'd been a decent father to him. He let it go. And almost ironic moment, Jamie stepbrother reached out to Elizabeth for a place to stay like almost at the same time. Because once Jamie had moved away, dad had shifted his, a bruise abuse from one son to the other, okay, yeah. Jamie had never fully told John or his mom about the story, but over the last five years, John had kind of pieced it together, that Jamie stepped out, has started sexually abusing him, and then brought on his son to do it. That boy was Troy's out, two years older than Jamie and he had molested his brother at his dad's request. When Elizabeth brought it up, Jamie was like, in raged? How dare you even think that it'd be okay to bring this guy here?

1:23:16 And he's like throwing stuff and freaking out. John's like this is your chance to get him back. Now Josh Jamie had gone along with some of the other killings because he believed in the mission of ridding pedophiles from the world. But this one was personal Trail. I arrived late one night in August of 1988, they didn't even let Troy unpack before he was murdered. Like he literally just laid in bed and was like, who I'm tired. I'll come back tomorrow and that first night he woke up to Jon. Jamie Robert and Mark standing over him with the live album, Throwing Copper playing in the background.

1:23:59 Oh my God. Mark and Robert secured Troy and Jamie took the lead on torture. First just beating him with his fist. Then he used to John's tools this went on for hours. They muffled his screams of the music and a pillow if Elizabeth heard anything, she sure. Didn't come looking. Even once Troy was Dad, it wasn't enough for Jamie. So John was like okay, cut them up. Then they wrapped him up in a tarp and took him back to snow town. Jamie didn't quit heroin but that night was definitely like bonding for him and John he was just like will be loyal to the end. The rest of the crew was ready to except for Mark. Elizabeth Hayden was still kind of hammering at her husband. She wasn't asking questions really so much. It's just like You shouldn't like hang out with him that much.

1:24:57 He seems like a bad influence. Yeah, well so Mark goes to John and us like how do I deal with the fact that she keeps like nagging me and John's like I mean we could kill her if you want. Oh my God, Mark's like nah, I don't want you to do that. And so instead they decide that if they kill Fred Brooks, who is now 20 years old, this will keep the women in line. Jodi and Elizabeth. This happens in September of 1998, John and Robert did the Dirty Work. They simply choked him. They did not torture him. He did not deserve to be tortured because he was not a pedophile. They took him this note and put them in a barrel.

1:25:41 It did do one thing, Elizabeth Hayden and Jodi. Stop speaking to John. After this. They knew that he was the one who had taken Pride, Jodi was too scared to talk about what he'd done and Elizabeth was Furious. Their next victim was Gary, O'Dwyer. Jamie was the Jimmy is 19 now and he was kind of debate. Gary was 29 years old and a loner, he'd been a traffic accident and I was collecting benefits. He had no friends, no family and he was very much oblivious to the fact that this random 19 year old was suddenly his friend over the course of about a month. Jamie came by every day, asking really personal questions, and then he just stopped and a couple nights later in October of 98 the crew walks in, they knew Gary wasn't a pedophile, he wasn't even a Neo-Nazi Gary died because John need more money. The hello sir.

1:26:44 Just come out for money now, the torture change with Gary, John thought their victims were becoming unconscious to quickly, so it was less beatings. More electrical currents. They actually use something called a very act Transformer to deliver the current. Now, I'm imagining that's worse. I don't know a lot about Transformers, and he's every why but sounds terrible. Everyone took a turn and then they killed him. Put him in a barrel and deposit him into town. With Gary's death, everyone's making enough money that they didn't need regular jobs. It's super comfortable. The crews really happy with it. The only person who's not happy is Elizabeth Hayden. Elizabeth might have been scared of John but she was also still whispering in a marketeer that you need to leave him behind.

1:27:29 She couldn't really understand why. And so she started going through their personal finances and that's when she realized that Mark was so embroiled in these multiple streams of fraud that taking John down would take Mark to so, but she decided this was worth it. She didn't know that Mark had committed any of them are Murders. She just thought that he was part of the fraud. And so she's like, fine, he'll go to jail for fraud for a little bit and then he'll be free of John who's probably a killer, right? However, she wanted to find just a little bit more evidence before she told the police. She started asking some really specific questions. God, just for you, get called and November of 1998. She asked about the rental property in snow town. On November 21st, 1998, John told Mark to take Jodi somewhere to movie just out of the house for a couple hours. John decided it was time to take care of Elizabeth. When John arrived, Elizabeth had to have known her time us up. And the worst part about this one that actually kind of like hit my heart a little bit.

1:28:43 John said that he lied to Elizabeth and told her that Marc told them to kill her. And that she sobbed as he choked her to death. Wow, she died thinking that the man she loved betrayed her. Robert, Jamie Mark and John drove to snow town and silence. The only occasional sound SOB for Mark. He'd wanted her to stop digging. Stop searching, stop fighting John. After this Mark fell apart, he pulled away from the group.

1:29:23 He was virtually dead inside. Both he and Jody walked around their house. Like zombies, Jodi son was dead. Now her sister, the police of course it came around asking questions. Elizabeth Brother Gary and Sinclair was really championing the search to find her Mark. Actually found Elizabeth Research into John and the rest of the crew and he ended up burning it all still. Somehow loyal to John, even while being emotionally, destroyed job, completely didn't understand marks Behavior. He's like, why is he so depressed?

1:30:03 Why is he not going out anymore? Why did you cry and randomly? Why is he just trailing off as he's talks? Like he forgot, why? Why indeed John didn't understand. Love I gotta tell you from, from reading about him, and from him do just seems like a sociopath like he just didn't have any real human connection, anybody? Oh yeah, as soon as you said, he would turn his emotions on and off and I was like, oh, so she's a teenager. Yeah, look up there you go. That's yeah, there you go. So John is like, you know, it'll bring mark back, you know, it'd be a great thing. Group murder.

1:30:45 Let's do it. Don't think murder is what he needs right now. So, it's early spring. 1999, John starts hunting for a good victim. The wall of killers in his house is surprisingly long, but none of them will do. Now, Jamie had one other step brother. His name was David Johnson. And the, to actually were trying to have like a decent relationship. They would say, birthday cards, or call here, and there on a holiday, but David was the last link to the man who hurt him. So much as a boy. So, when they had those calls, John would start like listening.

1:31:29 And twisting, the things that David was saying. He exclusively began referring to David by the gay slur that starts with an F. Oh, are you talking to the app again? Things like that, when David was excited and sharing good things that were happening in his life, John was just like he's rubbing that in your face because he knows you're a druggie and you have nothing by the time, John planned, the murder Jamie was on board. They lured David with a deal on a good new computer May 9th, 1999, Jamie picked David up and took him. The snow town, they killed David and the office before taking him down to the waltz, they threatened David with extreme violence, unless he read out this statement, they prepared for him, the recording was like, I'm leaving a delayed, I'm cutting ties with my family. He they made him admit to like all sorts of gay stuff and pedophilia.

1:32:27 During all of that. David realized that the only thing keeping him alive was probably the pin number for his bank card because he heard he heard John talking about it. And so, David ultimately gave them a wrong PIN number and Robert, and Jamie went off to go try it. And they left Mark with John And of course, David was there to Marks and on the live album, Throwing Copper, and John silently brought up the tools. And then Mark used all of them, taking out all of his rage and sadness that he bottled up after the death of his wife. That album lasted for an hour and marketing the entire time, but Jamie cat came back.

1:33:23 He saw the dead body and was just kind of like, what the hell? I thought we were doing this together and John's like, listen, Mark really needed this. And then John dismembered, David takes chunks of the Flesh and like Cooks it, like a steak. Offer some to everybody. Mark who's covered in David's blood as like, I do not want to eat this man Jamie's. Like I'm good on that one but Robert Duggan. As did John, they even cracked a beer and laughed. Now, John may have been happy that day, but he's not going to be happy with what followed see, geryon. Sinclair was not giving up on his missing sister and he was very much, you know, pushing the police to do more but also harassing the police and the first Gap at the police. Really zeroed in on was the fact that Mark and Jodi had different stories as to where Elizabeth had gone. It was like the two of them had been given the same like vague story but they had gone in like a different direction. The more they interviewed Mark and Jodi the more, the stories begin to diverge.

1:34:43 Garyun goes. It's kind of weird that Mark doesn't have a job and the police were like, wait, he doesn't have a job. This house is really expensive, and it's in a really nice neighborhood. How's he pay you for this? Yep, the police start looking into the finances and they follow the same trail. That Elizabeth did, like, literally Elizabeth did the job for them ahead of time. And it sucks so much because she should have just stopped and not asked about, It's no town because that is what got her killed. Either way, the police realized that there were seven Social Security checks attached to seven missing people all going into market accounts and very quickly moved from a small investigation to a big one. The police didn't have any idea how big this was and they were like, is this just a massive fraud case intertwined, with missing people.

1:35:35 They discover snow town and unfortunately, for David Johnson. He was murdered two weeks before they got access to look at the bank on Main Street and snow town. May 20th 1999 the creeped into this Dusty old bank and like silence is a very clear path to all the rooms. Were the members of the group walked in the dust They get to the computer, they it's doesn't have many files on it. They hear David Johnson's confession, but it hadn't, been edited. So, the threats of violence were still mixed in there. So they knew that it was not a real confession. They went down to the Vault and they see all these bins barrels and so they open one of them with a screwdriver like kind of pop it up and look into the inside.

1:36:23 The small was revolting, and it was much too much for simple detectives, they didn't bring in six Specialists, who wore like breathing apparatus has to open the barrels. And pull out the remains. So, the police don't immediately. Interview. John them they just they walk around Adelaide and they ask questions and that's when they learn from the neighbors. Oh Mark's not like the leader of that group, it's John bunting. They discovered that he lived near Suzanne and Ray so they request permission from the court to dig up the backyard.

1:37:08 And of course, they find Suzanne and pieces and Ray on May 28 and Ray, May 23rd 1999, they did this at midnight. So Could tip John off. And actually, once they find the remains, they do a arrest, but all at the same time, John Mark, Robert and Jamie, I'll get picked up and they are taken to different via in different Vehicles. Two different interrogation rooms. None of them are allowed to see or speak to each other. John says nothing. He was always planning on the day that somebody found out. Right? For hours, the police are like, what about, you know? What's going on with the bones in the barrels? He had an answer for everything. The police actually had to station themselves around snow town bank as every media Outlet in the country was trying to break in. the police did their job, they followed the evidence, they collected more data, John always sat there cool as a cucumber convinced, he was the smartest man in the room but he was not See, John didn't go to college. So all of his chemistry knowledge was from high school And John hadn't bought the right chemical. Like the one they had in school.

1:38:23 The chemical. He bought hadn't dissolved, the bodies, but it pickled them, it preserved, the bodies. Yes it did. Oh my God. So they didn't get, they couldn't get proof of the torture for the bodies that were in the ground because they've been there for so long. But for the bodies in the barrels, every Mark, every bruise, every cut, every blow torch, mark, Was visible had been preserved. John's arrogance had pretty much doomed, everybody. They had the coroner report they had the tools that they use to do the torture all the bodies and the financial details.

1:39:09 This is a slam-dunk case but they wanted and out an Insider. They wanted a confession from one of the man they had in custody. They started by trying to get Julie to talk The problem was. one Joanie Jodi was complicit with the Suzanne fraud to, she was so like messed up from grief that She admits, she agreed to anything. The police said and they were like, yeah. They're going to argue that after these this lost her Minds addled, she's not going to be a good witness, then they tried Elizabeth Harvey. The problem was while Jamie's in prison, Elizabeth gets cancer and she actually dies before they can really get a lot of information.

1:40:02 That was the straw that really broke Jamie's back. Sitting alone in his cell. He had a lot of time to think and all his thinking, went back to John, John killed, his family members, John killed, his friend, John isolated him from everyone, who loved him. John, manipulated him into doing terrible things, John had never raped him like his dad or his brother, but John heard him, just as badly, and now that he didn't have to worry about if him talking would hurt Elizabeth He said, I'll Make a Deal. I will plead guilty to the things that I was there to see. He'd only been involved in four of the murders but he agreed that he would accept the punishment for the direct harm. He caused during the multi-year run up to the court case. The court tried to protect his anonymity because he was there Smoking Gun.

1:40:52 I'm no reporters, no photos, not even description of him in the books. Jamie's trial was the first and the shortest he received, four life sentences, one for each of the people he helped killed and he started his time in prison. In June 21st, 2001. Robert Wagner and John bunting were tried to gather. John got on the stand and gloated proud of it all. It was like he had given a police confession. Just in front of an audience. He was proud of it. He wanted to be known for it. He said, I killed 11 of the 12 people, which was true. Robert admitted to only three, John was convicted of 11 and Robert was convicted of 10 that took another two years.

1:41:34 So we only have such 2003 now Mark was different because he was the least involved in the murders but deeply entwined in the fraud case. Marks case went happened in 2004, he was convicted of five counts of assisting with a murder and that was later upgraded to seven counts in 2007, Robert John actually push for appeal after appeal and in 2005, the Supreme Court of Australia. Rejects their case. And these are two direct quotes that I love them saying that John and Robert were in the business of Killing For Pleasure and And incapable of true Rehabilitation. Yeah, Robert. And John did however, win on the want to peel on the death of Suzanne Allen in May of 2007. No one could prove how Susan died and the jury couldn't decide the house in Salisbury, was demolished by its owner. That was the one with the two bodies in the backyard, right? Yeah.

1:42:33 The house in Murray bridge, where Elizabeth and John and Jamie lived was sold more than likely to pay for court fees. The bank which had a four-bedroom house attached was put on oxygen, February of 2012 for two hundred thousand dollars. It did not hit half of that, so they tried again, and this time it didn't open house, like five dollars a person and all the people who showed up what, get all the money they made will go to charity. They made a call. I mean, like $700, so that's not bad. And they did sell the Property four hundred eighty five thousand dollars the family who owns it live in the house portion and they did turn the property back into a bank, okay? I saw an article saying that they were going to put a plaque up to memorialize the victims, but I have not seen the actual plaque.

1:43:27 And even though it took like six years, the actual legally, as was a very difficult here. Great. Yeah, it was like cut and dry. But, yeah, I love the fact that like, he just and he didn't even bother to check because they were doing this for, like three years. Like, did you look in the first bin and like, see that like check to give the body dissolved? Like that would be. The one thing you would do like just make her like test out to solution that you have. Make sure it's actually acid and it would dissolve your bodies. But I mean, we graduated High school. So we would know the check. I'm just saying like just checking general or at least test tested.

1:44:14 On something. Yeah. Oh my God. But yeah, that's the story bodies in the barrels. Look, I it's such a weird feeling, right? Yeah. Because like pedophiles, yes, no one likes. Pedophiles it. Do they deserve to die? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Weirdness here. Is that not everybody was a pedophile. Exactly. He just he assumed. If they were gay, they were Obviously a pedophile to use it. I mean, Barry did groom Robert. That is real. Okay. Yes, something sometime. And honestly he was about to do the same thing to Thomas. He definitely like 50 year old man. Should not be trying the sleep with an 18 year old. No, no.

1:45:02 They should not be friends with anybody in their teens or twenties, maybe, 1930s or 50. I mean, yeah, it's rough. So on one hand, you're like, oh, I understand Partially, the understand, the one he'd yes, and the Crusade against child sexual assault, but on the other hand, he was just a man who really liked. Well, after his abuse, he was someone who enjoyed indulging in the pain of others. Yeah, he needed that. So you can get over his own pain. Goodness gracious.

1:45:46 Yes, that's a, that's a, that's a tough one because like I, like he said, we understand it, but it's not like that. You weren't doing it to every pedophile. You're doing it to keep me. Just pick the one guy because he was like, I, you get benefits checks any money. Yep. Goodness gracious. It's wild because in the States, you have to, like, verify all this information every year. Yeah, absolutely. I'm sure probably now their systems probably a little bit better. But back a good 20 years ago, the checks and balances were not in place to make sure because this is actually like, well, okay they didn't kill them, but when I was in Philadelphia, it happened, multiple times that people like kidnapped, they're like elderly relatives.

1:46:30 Yeah, I said the Social Security checks, I remember it happening. I remember hearing about that, it was so unlike the family member would be like, in the basement, like almost starved to death. Yes, yes. Scruple. So check fraud mix with abuse of people with disabilities or elderly. Apparently, is much more common than we think. And so, I think that might be why. Now people have to check in every year. It's a good you haven't been kidnapped, right? Yeah, it's good thing. Well, okay, what do you have to talk about today? Okay.

1:47:12 To those of you that know me, you know? I'm all about that gamer life. Okay. I've been poor with that. Yeah, me and Brittany about that gamer life. I mean, go ahead and we'll Elder ring since it was released. And no, I have not beaten yet, it's been a month. I don't care if it's just, it's a hard game. Okay, is what my ass? I got. Massive fact, legendary, and I've been playing the game. I played through the first one last week. No, two weeks ago. And then I'm on the second one now. I've just been playing through every RPG.

1:47:52 I can get my hands on right now. It started with cyberpunk 2077, and I just can't stop. Yeah, they're fun games. RPGs are really fun. Well, I didn't think they were that many for like Playstation Xbox. But there are lots, o. Ya know. There are tons, what back to our point. So today's or yesterday's creep is game-related. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's funny because I've been actually trying to stream some scary games as well. I got to like one is a very, very woke horror game. And the other one is a dating simulator about Cryptids. And, you know, if there's a chance for me to romance a freaking monster, I'm in there.

1:48:49 But yeah, it's today I decided to do a another haunted gaming episode. Like the first one I did was about, you know, some Creepypasta video games, like Pokemon and stuff like that. And this one is kind of similar a similar. It's a, you know, they're the games. I will be talking about Don't really exist but there's no proof that they don't exist. Either, that makes sense. Is this like that weird thing is I'll do with the clock. The Clock Town, there's some sort of weird, creepy, pasta /. You can make this thing really happen that involves like the original Zelda and a clock thing. And I listen, I just know it's creepy pasta that I read one time and place it is real.

1:49:51 It's you tell my been drowned Maybe it's part of that. It's the N64 thing. Yeah, yeah, it is okay. It's sort of something like that, but that's about video game die in the game. You die in real life. Okay? It's something like that. That's that's all that's one of them. Sorry that was from the video game horror movie that was about Gosh. The Countess Bathory. Okay, yes. As you explored her castle. Listen. That guy movie was slapped on.

1:50:32 It was good. It's, yeah. I've seen it. It's not bad. I like it. There's another teen horror movie. And the reason why I'm talking about video game, like horror stuff today is because there's a movie on Netflix As baseball, and it's based, it might be based on one of the stories I'm going to tell you today. Yeah, I forget what it's called. I got to look it up again, but it's the one of the new ones is came out. So I think one of the things that you talked about a little while ago, one of those weird like videos. I think I saw one and it was super creepy because someone had made a video game, that was almost identical to the the creepy video. You're talking.

1:51:21 It was the one with the person running through like the office. Mase you're saying chasing them the, but the back rooms because you had told me about it and I'm watching the game and I'm like, this is exactly what Brian was talking about is really creepy. Is to back up what turned it into a game. There's a pretty weird, there's a game about the back rooms and there's a game about medel that Mandela effect as well, and then I can build a catalog. I found the original backrooms videos and there's more of them. Oh yeah. No, they're too. Yeah, they're doing a lot of creepy creepy. So, for today, I'm just going to do two stories one. I actually did a write-up on and the other one, I think it would just be better for me to tell you the story. Okay.

1:52:07 Like to read it. You guys so that, you know, you get the whole sense of it. And I'm like, it's there all their old stories so it doesn't really matter. I don't think so. Now for story, I, it's a, it's a, it's the game is cold. Paul libous, I guess I was pronounced Pol ybi. U.s. okay. That's what if you don't look it up. It's a so back in 1981 There's a mysterious arcade cabinet that that shows up in Portland, Oregon and this was no ordinary game. A lot of people who played the game speculated that it was either a tool used by the the the government US government to test.

1:53:23 So this is total, this is sort of like a conspiracy mixed in, with some creepy. It's so is used by the US government to the test, someone's like agility or mental, you know, mental cognitive congregation stuff like that, you know, for recruiting soldiers for the Army. And it's funny because I remember hearing something about the US Army, actually having like the recruits playing video games because you know how your reflexes are good. If you're playing video games in which they really are. And it's just funny.

1:54:07 Tell the story like it just correlated that there is real Truth to this. Absolutely. Oh. He Pol y bi us. Polybius. Yeah, Holly B is yes. We've mentioned this have we well briefly. It was when I talked about I think was talked about MK Ultra. Okay. Okay. It was like in passing I was super into it because I was focused more on all the other stuff attached to MKUltra.

1:54:48 Okay so if you guys wouldn't listen to MKUltra stuff going to go up, subscribe to our patreon or or Spotify whatever. Yeah yeah, yeah, okay. So you know it's it was something that was either used for training recruiting soldiers or it was something that the CIA planted that was used for like you said and K Ultra a brainwashing tool, or it was just like put there by the the man in Black Who were just trying to collect information. About whatever it like, Men In Black. They're aliens, okay?

1:55:38 They're aliens are weird guys. Who knows? What they want to collect data at all on? At least you're not probing bugs. Who knows our aliens? Okay. Oh, god. Um, okay, so so like I said, this, this, this art is arcade, it shows up this, this arcade cabinet shows up in Portland, as or this arcade, and Portland Oregon 1981. Now, it had, it was addicting to some people and a lot of people who play the game, you know, they stopped playing the game. And then after a while, don't be playing, no one would be playing the game but then some guys dressed in black would come and like mess with the game.

1:56:35 That's what the back of the game. You know, go inside of it, get some stuff out of there and And then like leave and people were just like, what the, what was that all about. So, you know, rumors of structs are spreading, like, all this game must have something to do with the Men in Black, or the government, they're like, you assume, because if I see someone coming, open up the a game cabinet and Fiddle with it, I'm assuming they're fixing something, but okay, but they're dressed in case someone dressed in black. Black sunglasses. I got that black suit on, I would say.

1:57:17 That's a man in Black. If I was young I would have thought. Yes. I mean I would I mean I won't be like yeah yeah yeah. Like what are these guys doing this? Talk to him. Like stranger things style. Oh my God. So, I read this part that says there are two documentarians Todd Muto and John frechette. Wait, no is another one dalen, Rafe. So they are, they're looking, they're doing like a documentary on Trying to figure out this arcade cabinet actually existed.

1:58:06 And if the room in the rumors behind it, we're actually true. The name, meaning of it, the paulibus livius. Polybius, no. I do not. Is there a meaning behind it? He's a Greek philosopher from 2008. I saw that I saw that he was a good puzzle maker. I didn't know there was something else. Okay. Yeah, I saw that I saw So it's a good name for a video game regard. I really is, you know, whether it's real or not like polybius, it's a, I guess I don't understand like the one thing that I like it, because I guess this pops up in loads of gamer forms and things. Like why would like Puzzles make people have, like seizures?

1:58:51 I mean, like if there is nothing flashing it Mikey they never talk about what actually happens in the game. No, they really don't. Is he The people who like all this mystery it was like some people say it was like a simulator so like a you know, simulator or some people got sick from playing it. So this doesn't really say headaches migraines. There's like a newspaper article about a heart attack. Yeah, yeah. People will were but yeah, they were doing searches, you know, they got a Kickstarter to see if this game arcade was really real or not I mean there's yeah there's no real proof of it being real right now. So those are like they're searching. Good.

1:59:42 Documentary to watch them. Great, exactly. Now, there are games that have been made based off of this. Yes, I have seen some of those. Okay. All right. Yeah, there's some for the PC. Some for PlayStation, The named Paulette. Was it? Polybius you? How did you say? Yes, I'm saying what you said it? Okay. Yes, it's, it's popped up a lot over the years and it's like, in popular culture. If anyways, watches him soon as I could, I could have put this in my Simpsons episode. Oh yeah, that isn't a Simpson. Yeah.

2:00:23 Martin arcade and there's an arcade cabinet next to him and it says, polybius on. It's spelled the same way. It's written the same way as as the one is and I think in Metal Gear Solid, there is also a reference to polybius. It's like at the end there's a as Medicare Solitude there's a like, a plans plans of making project. Polybius and if you look at the blueprints, it's an arcade cabinet. And like just little, if sprinkled out throughout history, like this thing might be real, or it's just something that people like to talk about.

2:01:15 but yeah that's that was one that's like it's not really creepy but it's just like you know men in black or coming in to check out this arcade cabinet and It may be used for testing and like training soldiers, or it could just be used for all the interesting thing about like the claims about like the headaches and stuff is that like I mean, do you remember that Nintendo had set that sat on a table? Oh yes of course. I mean that did cause like issues with people's eyes and their heads and stuff, so it's not super far off from the realm of reality. No. Not at all.

2:01:58 Yeah, I guess there are a few Creepypastas about this as well. I'm not going to read any of those today because they'll be extra long but there's another video game that's almost like this. Okay. It's um, stop me if you've heard this one, it's called kill switch. It's I mean okay there's an actual game called kill switch. It's on the PlayStation. I think we're something like it's very old 80s. Yeah yeah but there is a story about a game called kill switch and that's one I'm going to I'm going to finish off with today because it's extra long. Okay and I feel like it's a good story. So indulge me, let me get you my narrator space. All right. so, in the spring of 1989, They're the car. Veena Corporation, released a curious game. Who's this submit dissemination among America's students that fall was Swift and Furious?

2:03:22 So its popularity was ultimately short-lived. The game was kill switch on a surface, it was a variant on a, the mystery, or horror survival gain, the precursor to the mist and Silent get Hill. Franchises. The Narrative showed a complexity for which carbonyl is known. As though, the graphics were monochrome, vague gray, white shapes against the black background. So am IDI versions of checks folk songs played throughout players could choose between two avatars and invisible demon named gassed or a visible human woman. Owen, name Porto.

2:04:12 L P0, R t0. Now playing is gas was considerably more difficult due to his, you know, being invisible and players, were highly liable to reset, restart the game, as a portal, after the first level in, which it was impossible to gauge jumps or aim, however, gas was clearly, the more powerful character he had fire Brea's in a coal steam attack but as it was above the skill level of most players to keep track of where to fire breathing poison dispensing invisible imp was on their screen once a fire and steam had run out Porto became more or less default Now, let me stop it right here and I'm going to say that there's another story about this kill, switch game. Now, the kill switch is actually you only get one playthrough. You only get you only get one playthrough, if you die during this playthrough, then the game, basically stops and resets itself.

2:05:25 It just deletes itself from your system, So, it was a computer game and it just like if you died or if you got to the end of the game then it completely deleted self. Porto's signal earlier singular ability was seemingly random gross, she expanded and contracted in size, Drew out the game. It Kansas Engineering grad claim to have figured out the pattern involved, but for reasons which will become obvious, his work was lost Portugal awakens in a dark and awakens in the dark with wounds in her elbows confused, seeking a way out, she ascends through the levels of a coal mine, in which it is slowly revealed that she was once an employee, investigating is collapse and beset, on all sides by demons similar to gas as well as this was dead Foreman.

2:06:28 Cole, golems and demonic inspectors from the God. So, vaak tick. So badhak Corporation Who's boxy bodies were closed and red, the only color of the game. Color in the game. So everything else was monochrome their environment. So primitive becomes generally uncanny as play progresses. There are no bosses in any real sense. Portal must simply just move physically through tunnels to reach, subsequent levels or size, varies. Wildly through the inner level spaces. So the story that emerges through portals discovery of magnetic pipes, its files.

2:07:19 Mutated Factory workers who were once our friends, and deciphering and impressively complex code AS robbed on a Serie of iron axes players must collect this. Portion of the game was almost laughably codeplex and defeated many players until portal 881 posted. The cipher in the Columbia BBS. So I guess there was a there's a hacker that I got into the system and like this is how you get through it. Is that the foreman Under Pressure to increase coal production began to falsify reports of malfunctions and worker malfeasance in order to excuse low output, which incited the Silva Tech inspection officials were dispatched, one for each Miner and an extraordinary story of torture unfolds and fuzzy.

2:08:22 Z & Instinct Graphics of red-coated man. Standing over workers inserting a small knives in the joints, wherever production slowed. Yeah. I mean, it leave. This is not a very subtle critique of Soviet area era in this Trio tactics. And as the town of car, Vena itself was devastated by the departure of the coal industry, more than one thesis has Interpreted kill switch as a political screed after after solving the xcode Proto finds. And assembles a tape recorder on which a male voice tells her that the fires of the Earth had risen up in their defense, excuse me, God and flowed into the hearts of the decrepit, free Evolution equipment, they use and waking them to avenge the H, it is generally assumed that the fires of occurs in demons, like, gassed coal, fumes, and gassy bodies. Inhabiting the old machines.

2:09:32 The machines themselves are so big. That the graphics alixe elect God to only show two or three gear teeth or conveyor belt rather than the entire apparatus their machines, drove the inspectors mad, and they disappeared into Do Caverns with their knives. Only to emerge to play portal. Of course, the workers were often crushed and mangled in the onslaught of machines who were neither graceful, nor discriminating for to herself was knocked into a deep Chasm by a grief-stricken engine in her fluctuating size if it is real. And not imagine it is implied.

2:10:20 That the result of the poisonous fumes and Healed here. So I guess her size changing was like, just the fumes in the in the chasm. So what follows is the most cryptic and intuitive? Part of the game, there's no logical reason to proceed in the correct way. And again it was the user or portal 881 who came to rescue, but the of the fledging fledgling Killswitch community in the chamber. Behind the tape, recorder the tape recorder that portal has to get the as a guy's name.

2:11:00 The guys, you know, recording on. It is a Great foreigners where coal was once rendered into Coke. There are no clues as to what she is attended to do in this room players, attempted nearly everything from emulating herself to continuing to process coal as the machine. You know, has never risen up but as user Proto 81, Hit Upon a solution. And posted it in the Columbia boards. If Porto, ingests overall Coke, she will find her body under control and can't go on to fight her way out of the coal in the final levels of the mine which are impossible to her, you know, in her giant State because you know, she she changes shapes and sizes. Clutching the tape containing this extraordinary story. However, she crawls through the final tunnel to emerge above ground.

2:12:06 The screen goes suddenly white kill switch by Design, deletes itself upon player, completion of the game. It is not recoverable by any means, all trace of it is removed from the user's computer. The game cannot be copied for all intents and purposes. It exists only for those playing it And then ceases to be entirely. One cannot replay it unlocking further Secrets or narrative Pathways. One cannot allow a another to play it. And perhaps most importantly, it is impossible to experience the game all the way to the end as both portal and gas.

2:12:49 So, predictably player outcry was, you know, enormous several routes to solve the problem where pursued, with no real efficiency, the first And most common was to Simply, like by more copies of the game, but the Corvina group, they release only like five thousand copies and refuse to press further. Her addition. So they're like, now this is all we're making of this game. Kill switch was designed to be a unique, playing experience like reality. It is unrepeatable on retrievable and in logical.

2:13:29 One might even say ineffable, death is final, death is complete. The fate of poor told in her beloved guests are as unknowable as our own. It is the desire of the car being a corporation that this be so and we ask our customers to respect that desire rest assured car Veena will continue to provide the highest quality games to West. And that kill switch is merely one among our Many Wonders and that's a quote for from the Corvina Corporation. So of course, this is not have the intended effect. The world, the word.

2:14:17 Beloved Pete. Everyone's interest you know when they said portal in her beloved guests, gasp was supposed to be a demon gas is not presented in any portion of portals narrative. They were playing separately a rush to find the remaining copies of the game ensued with the tent of playing as gas and discovering. The meaning of carbine has cryptic word, the most Wheeler Z was a gasp when at some point become the fumes inhaled by portal changing her size and beginning her Adventure, some salt that this was wishful thinking in that if only gas early levels were passable, one was somehow be able to play as both simultaneously. However by the time by this time, no further copies appeared to be available in retail outlets Players who had yet, had not yet.

2:15:18 Completed the game attempt to gas levels frequently but the difficulty in actual actual playing like this - I cannot wer say words today. Playing this big nag, what does that mean? It. No in, it can nag. If he can't do it, I can't do it in. Magnetic I can't I can't type format it because that's the word enigmatic Avatar. My God. Brittany, I am struggling over here. Oh God, and no player has ever claimed to have finished a game as gas one by one tool or portals loss. Unearthly worldcruise them back to her. One by one, they were compelled towards the finality of the vast white screen to find any copy usable. Today is an almost unfathomably rare occurrence, he still shrink-wrap, copy was sold at an auction in 2005 for goddamn seven hundred thousand dollars.

2:16:40 I'm just going to round it up, seven hundred thousand dollars to somebody in Tokyo. Because it was Yamamoto it was entirely past is probably possible that your motives has the last from Lightman remaining copy of the game knowing this, you know, Moto had intended to open his play to all enthusiasts filming and uploading this process. You know how YouTubers do and our haunted games. However, to date the only film which had surfaces which had Just is in 1 minute and 45 second clip of a Haggard, you Modo at his computer. So Avatar selection screen is visible over his right shoulder and he's seen crying.

2:17:36 And that is the end of the story. So there's no, there's no real end of the story apparently. So the Sun is up. There's a story about, you know, you can play two players, one is a demon, the other ones a girl, she Hills some vapor and she can change your shape and size. She wakes up in this coal. Mine, and she has to find a way out of there. And apparently she used to work there as well. The demon gas is what I'm assuming, he's supposed to be some type of representation of the coal fumes. Or you know what I mean? Okay. So, as soon as she inhales it, then she he kind of like controls her body but he can't use his powers. He can only use Whatever to make her bigger small, but yeah, it was just, it's just weird because people, like, as soon as they the, the carbine incorporation, they're like, yeah, her beloved gas, so they're like, oh, so they knew each other.

2:18:42 So, what's going on with the story? And they wouldn't, you know, they wouldn't go any further on. It is just Very weird game that may or may not have come out and how it exists? Yes. Yes, somebody made it. If I go onto YouTube right now I'll fine. Oh absolutely version based off of the story. So there are screenshots of this game. And it shows you yet. No, there's a game. There's so many made a fan made game of this and it shows you screenshots of the levels that you can take as portal or gassed.

2:19:28 And there's some, some of them are, you know, impassable. Some of them or passable, And I wish I could just send you this link. But as I can't send you pictures of this goddamn it. But anyway, it's it's a, it's very, it was very interesting because I guess it was a it was made as a what was it like? What's that word? Like a sleep? No, no Creepypasta. Like the story like the game is an allegory for like coal mining in this, in this country. Let me check.

2:20:17 Yeah gotcha and how you know, coal mining destroyed you know Czech Republic. This town and a Czech Republic. In this this car being a corporation made his game about that. And they wanted to bring late to that but yeah, it's it was it's an interesting listen for somebody who actually does Creepypasta narrations and I can't do them really. Well, I'm sorry, but thank you for listening. It's going to be read that story. It's all good. Thanks for all the people who stay to the very end. Thank you so much. Remembering that wears only about a week and a half left until the thick dense disappear and then there's no more a squat And I just wanted to say thank you again to all of our patreon supporters.

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