The Myth of Ted Bundy Part I & The Dover Demon

0:30 Hey everybody. It's your killer country. My name is Freddy, Ransom, my name is Brian jr. And this isn't Killers, get caught a podcast of, of the deep, dives into the lives of killers. And if you're new here, when Killers get caught as a three-part podcast, where we discuss true crime stories that resonated with us, I'll lead you down the path of a well-known or lesser known killer discuss their childhood lives methodology and, of course, how they got caught and then Brian finishes us our episode off with a paranormal palate, cleanser Before we start, I just want to remind everybody listening that the thick dudes merch. Drop ends on January 31st 2022. And this will be the only time that you could get yourself a hoodie, or a t-shirt like this one, with our big booty Mothman on it. And please, once you get your marriage, please tag us Tick Tock, Instagram Twitter, I want to see your picks. One of my friends who bought a mug posted on her IG and it was really cute.

1:27 So it's so nice to see you guys. Bring it. And this is just a reminder that just like in 1967. Once the Mothman is gone, he's going to be gone for good and so you can get that at when Killers get caught. Shot, good. Listen, I found myself thinking of that was a very clever. It is weird. I'm wearing my mom's measure today, but was so, am I? I have mine in Gray. So do I imagine like show on the camera, but I have my iPad in front of it. There we go. I like my little muffin, it's fun because people are like, a moth man shirt, I didn't realize that the Mothman has as many groupies.

2:13 Oh yes. As he does. Yeah, you know what's funny actually? Before we start? I'm sorry. It's going off a little thing. So as I practice Monday night, right? And my coat I'm wearing my mom's measure for practice today so it was my maroon one, I think. And I coach you know her daughter drew the Mothman picture for us and she's like I see you where it is, what she Drew, I'm like, hell, yeah, this is awesome. And she's like, oh miles away. She might message you later about some things and I'm like, oh, that's awesome. So I might have some things to talk about in the future like some creepy stuff. Some creepy stuff, not, you know, your dirt be friends. Are always giving you messages about creepy stuff. I know I love.

3:02 Yo, did you hear about this place about? About 40 minutes away up with Pennsylvania but regardless this week in True Crime. So this is a story that didn't just happen but what they just found is pretty wild. This all goes with this pastor in Akron Ohio, And so at the end of last year, he was arrested and his church was shut down for because he was an unlicensed funeral director. Oh, and the church has been shut down for about four months.

3:45 And so, here's where things get crazy. Apparently. A couple of weeks ago, a woman who is only referring to herself as a Urban Explorer like within the church because it's pretty much abandoned now. She was in the basement and she discovered boxes of cremated remains. In the church. Dating back to 2010. This happened at the greater Faith Missionary Baptist Church and Akron Ohio, and the Ohio Bureau of Investigations actually have opened an investigation into this as of January 11th.

4:33 And so, now on top of the fact that he was not a license license. Funeral home director. He also now has to do with the fact that there were 89 Sets of cremated remains that go back to 2010 that he never he didn't get to the family, didn't know. And here's the thing, you're actually not allowed to deny people, their cremated remains just because they can't pay, right? So when someone does that, it's actually illegal, like people can make payment plans and things of that nature. But in all situations, like, like, last year, when I talked about, a lot of the like Funeral Home fail, And take talk a bunch of people who work in the industry like messaged me and they were just like, yeah, that's really illegal.

5:25 You give people their families remains, you don't hold them over their head, like you don't extort them. So now like and here's the thing is, we don't know if he was following the rules. Normally, when you get cremated to make sure that that you can always be found, they put a little tag with your body before it grows in the Yep. Machine. Yep and that will tag goes with you from the time you enter the facility to the time you leave and that way if for some reason they get misplaced, And 20 years from now, somebody finds these learn in their attic they can take it to the local funeral home.

6:08 Check the number on it and get it to the right family. But if since he wasn't doing this correctly, I don't know if those tags are there. Okay, so no, see, we went down two different lines of thought when you use, when you said about, he had remained in his basement because no, no, because he had cremated remains his basement right, and you went down the path of like, oh no, he's just family members that he didn't return to Ashes to I'm like, what are these are kill people? Yes, what are. These are like victims of his that are just sitting in his pocket in the bay. The church so far.

6:50 His only crime is just taking advantage of people who are grieving but we'll see how that continues to go on since they're bringing in the big dogs here. Apparently the churches in Columbus but he's from Akron. Okay, he was also charged with racketeering tampering with records identity fraud, abuse of a corpse. in multiple counties because I guess the families are for multiple areas, Lucas County, Koya, hoga Summit, Franklin, And cuz apparently he was operating multiple funeral homes across the state. Oh wow.

7:40 So here it is. They've been finding this stuff since 2019 as crazy. He also did get in trouble at one of the homes for failing to refrigerator human body. That is a law they have in Akron. Probably a lot, Ohio, probably not a bad idea, considering what we learned about in the last year. Multiple counts for all of these things. And I guess this all started because this another funeral director. Talk to him and was like hey we don't have space at our facility. Can we hold a person at yours? Hmm.

8:28 Well, that man. Like that body. That was supposed to be held there. He was supposed to have been buried next to someone. One of his relatives in 2004 and they found his remain, his cremated remains two weeks ago. So he was accepting burial money for bodies and then cremating them probably because it's cheaper. And pocketing the difference. But, wait, so that's what started it. But, wait did, what did he buries in?

9:09 What was buried, who knows they're going to have to exhume the, I mean, they're probably not a body in there. Yeah. Sorry. Feel somebody else. Yeah. Exactly. Somebody else's body. Yeah. So they're going to have to like this is going to be a total nightmare. I feel bad if You're from any of these counties in Ohio, and you work through this man who knows and also like they're probably going to have to test the cremated remains now, to make sure that they're more, not more than one person or that they are actually a person because he could have been filling bags with dust that's happened before.

9:50 Like, we don't know. I hope this dude goes to jail for a while. This is just absolutely ridiculous. Yeah, that's my God. Not here, too. Shantay Harden. You suck, you're pretty bad. Personally that's mine total like craziness going on over in Ohio. But what about you? Well there's some craziness going on in Pennsylvania as well. Of course that's funny because you said what's going on in Pennsylvania. Well, I was like let me tell you. Oh goodness. Okay, so I don't know if you heard but Sunday morning there was There's a floating car found in the Susquehanna River.

10:38 Have you heard of this? No. Okay. Nobody told me. Okay, where was it? Like closer to, where I used to live or goodness? I'm going to say little a little further up or wow. Yeah. But okay, so apparently this car. No one was how I got into the river, but people were cold on Sunday morning to investigate this courtesan River because there was a man, a woman and a two-year-old child ever on top of this car. Oh my God. Oh my God. Yeah, so at least it was floating Yeah, um, so just gets worse after that.

11:26 So not only so. So, okay. So the man woman child. The man is holding a knife and he's threatening this woman. Okay. Well she's a child. Yeah it got got real bad real fast so yeah, he's threatening her. Well, he's on top like when you're on top of the car, I think he does is after what he says for. So I guess police were there and, you know, they're trying to figure out how we're going to see these people, and this guy he's just yelling at the police. He's like, shoot me, shoot me, and And then he turns the knife on the woman and he starts threatening her. And police are just like, okay, well we came let him hurt her so they shot him.

12:13 What he wanted. You got what you want it. She got shot and then he fell into the river and know, like I said, it's happened Sunday. Okay. Current Sort of Susquehanna River. I don't know if anybody has looked at it recently, but it's really icy. There are like, a lot of moving, he's moving fast. There's a current only for their. It's like, it's very, very active. So, he fell into the river and The wife. Okay. So it turns out that this is his wife that's on top of the car and it's child and they are rescued.

13:02 Hmm, and it read a quote, I forget where it's at but I was reading all this on pin light but one of the, you know, the search people, they were searching, they were going to first send out a boat to rescue these people. They're on top of card in the boat that they were going to use was wait. This is like the same day as the snowstorm. Yeah, the snow sorted later that day. But yes, yeah, but I mean, that means they would have had to stop search, right?

13:44 Yeah, yeah, yeah cuz I mean I don't I know that area got it worse than we did. Where I am in Pennsylvania but yes, pretty bad. It wasn't bad here but like I'm hearing from my other friends in the state that it was not good where they were yeah it's not so the boat they tried to use I guess. The waters were just too rough for that one from these about. So they used I guess the cherry picker to get them like you know they do when they're saving people from like burning buildings, helicopter thing and you sit in the little nest and they pull you up Now I know that use a helicopter but they didn't use that to you it was like some like acceptable ladder to use on you know the fire trucks and stuff like that. I could never stuff like that the extendable ladder. Um like is this like a cherry picker type of thing? I forget what they call only have a good record but so the wife and child were rescued but they were going to search for like the husband but the waters to ice. I see, they're too fast, it's to code. So they like it would be preserved when they do get to him, keep equally cold his crap outside right now. So, yeah, I'll be here.

15:08 Okay, I'm not taking anything away from the people of the Midwest. I'm sure it's like three degrees where y'all are right now. But it's cold for us so that windchill that when she was crazy, right? Now, so the windchill is ridiculous. Okay, so I found a quote that was looking for and it goes if you end up in the river, you're probably not going to survive the position of the car with in the river. And that the fact that it got stuck on some rocks, is what saves a mom and a child. So, I probably would have sank. Yeah, it probably wouldn't. Something else would have happened there? They, they're lucky. They got saved. but, They lie. We don't know how the car got into. Like we can speculate how the car got into a river like he was probably trying to kill all three of them have failed. Yep.

16:02 That's probably, that's, that's the thought that I was doing this to. Oh yeah. This was going to be a murder-suicide. Yeah. Absolutely. And so at least it didn't happen. No it's just a suicide by cop, I guess. Yeah. And then it became suicide by cop. Yep. Yeah but yeah. Yeah, like this happened like this was reported. I think it came out in one day. So nothing new like I was looking at was looking looking like is there any new do we have any other backgrounds? Nothing yet. So maybe we'll find some other information about you know what happened between?

16:42 Yeah. Yeah, that's right. I got well what I have for you. This week is the beginning of what's going to end up being a two-part episode. And I've been putting this off for a long time. Mainly because I have a lot of angry feelings about this particular killer and you're going to get to hear them as so funny people. And Tick-Tock were like, I can't wait to hear your perspective.

17:22 Y'all ready to hear my perspective? So what am I Tick? Tock followers and I'm sure you can guess who it is. Hey, I'm hams. It is who is he's been with us since the beginning? So like that's why would hams is like just do something. He's like you talk about this person. A lot of times I'll do it because you know what? He's been here since the beginning and you know, yeah, that's pretty dope but he has been asking me to talk about this particular killer for a while. Pretty much ever since I made a video on Tick-Tock where I said, it's your boy Ted Bundy because everybody seems to love him so much. It's your boy.

18:09 So I've often expressed a lot of frustration with With with him because I feel like he's been romanticized in modern media. And a lot of his story is now like Mythos and because of the way, the media has portrayed him, he's some kind of like, Boogeyman or Phantom but in reality Theodore Robert Bundy was a man. One of my favorite quotes from Ann Rule, who we're going to talk about her a lot because she was his friend, she wasn't actually like the big book. True Crime book writer when this was going on. She worked at a crisis Suicide, Hotline alongside of him and they were friends and that's why, but one of the quotes she said is Ted was never handsome brilliant or charismatic as crime, folklore deemed him. But as I said before, infamy became him. He was a man, nothing more, nothing less, and I will admit ahead of time.

19:07 There's some bias. He's here. I'm a proud member of the Ted Bundy hate Club. But I have promised a lot of you that I gave you a fair in-depth analysis of him. And so today, we're going to talk about one of America's most infamous killers and we will start as we always do. So he was born Theodore Robert Cowell on November 24th, 1946 at the Elizabeth Lund home for unwed mothers in Burlington Vermont. And like I said, who was his Friday? And Rule says that he didn't know his mother's real identity until he was about 24 years old. He more than likely suspected that the woman who was raising him was his grandmother and his but his actual mother. Other was Louise cow.

20:01 She was raised. He, they were raised as brother and sister and that his grandparents Samuel and Eleanor Cal were his parents. They all lived in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania along with two aunts who he believed to be his sister's, Audrey and Julia. Interestingly enough, I found some interviews with Louise and she talked about regretting, this decision. It was with an interview with a doctor, Dorothy, Louis, but it was the 40s and being an unwed. Mother was still a very big deal. And not only did she have a baby out of wedlock Willy's, but she refused to say, who the father was, and it's possible that she never knew. She was 22 years old and up until that point like she was the Golden Girl like of the siblings. Everyone.

20:54 You know, loved her and all of a sudden she has a baby out of wedlock and well, not so cold anymore, right? Yeah. This was such a closely held Family, secret that other like, Aunts Uncles cousins didn't know, or it was only like whispered about like it was a suspicion but like they no one ever confirmed it, which is really wild like family secrets, tend to get told. True. So Ted's young boy and he doesn't have the best upbringing.

21:36 I know I'm really under like knows what's going on in the Cal household. In fact, bunny didn't talk about it until he was in prison. He began to paint this story of how dysfunctional this family was and it all centers around Samuel. Cow his grandfather, who was a bully a bigot openly racist Sis and very violent. And of course, when serial killers talk about things, when they're on death row, there's though suspicion or the worry that they're just lying, right? Yeah. But some of other Ted's, family members did confirm this and like when I say this guy was racist.

22:19 I mean, he hated anybody that wasn't white, it was really common for him to launch into these like Thai reads about Italian people. Anybody that wasn't Catholic black people, obviously, of course, and they it would just happen. He would just get mad and go off on a tangent. It was he would also get violent if you like didn't sit there and agree with him, And he also got angry and very violent. If anyone asked any questions about, who Ted's father was. In fact, it was so weird to Ted and like the the sisters that they believed for a long time that Samuel cow might have raped his oldest daughter.

23:20 That because he was like, so defensive about it. I was think I was thinking something else truck. He's, that's another way to look at it. What were you thinking? I was thinking, like, maybe, I don't know, some Italian person, like gotta go mom pregnant or something. I mean, he might just been racist. It's true. I mean, for a Time Italian people for like, the lowest of the white people in America. So, Is that weird? There was like a white people hierarchy? Yeah. Well yeah. Because you think you had like Irish that were like hate it. They were also like on that ranking. I'm just like yo look this like y'all bow from Europe.

24:05 What's that on here? Are we talking about? Why you hate each other now? But yeah, so then we have that. So there's the the potential that perhaps Ted Bundy incest will never know. We also have another issue going on simultaneously Eleanor Cowell. His grandmother absolutely miserable. Eleanor gets hospitalized. And they put her through electroconvulsive therapy because they're like this will fix your depression. Instead what it does is making her almost agoraphobic refuses to leave the house which is generally like terrified to leave the house.

24:49 Samuel also has some mental health issues, but he's not going to admit it instead, he would just be walking around the house talking to nobody, in particular. He also abused animals that crossed his path. He would kick like a dog. If it got in his way, like if I can neighbors like cat was somewhere, he would just like pick it up by its tail and throw it. And the son's grandfather, right? That's the grandfather. Yeah. Okay. And then we're talking about, Ted is like a toddler at this point apparently, like a Ted's. Aunt. Julia said he would get angry and jump up and down like, in a rage and like none of them looked forward to their dad coming home from work.

25:39 He never abused the kids. It was more like physically, it was more emotional and verbal like I said that contributed to Eleanor's mental health she like could never speak. Do you wish is always and he did physically hit her. Does it after too many shock treatments Eleanor which is was like, I'm done with life. I'm just gonna stay here in my room and do nothing else. So this is all happening. While Ted still a toddler. And this is also when he begins to exhibit some bizarre and strange Behavior. More than once his aunts would wake up and they'd find little baby Ted. Carrying knives in the middle of the night. Placing said knives next to them on their beds. And the, the sisters were worried, but the like the way that one of the one that was just like no one acted like, this was weird, but it's very weird that this child is like prospecting stabbing us, like get like a child playing lives. Next to my bed.

27:01 No, thank you. Like I get creeped out with my kids, just walk around at night. It's exactly, he's going down to the kitchen, pulling out the knives and then taking them upstairs and thinking about things and what it's wild that it's like a baby would be doing this, okay? When Ted was only about three years. Old, he discovered Pornography, he and his cousin's went into Samuel cows Greenhouse where he had his little garden and they found loads of magazines. And so that was the first time that Ted saw porn and he would continue to seek it out all through his childhood. That's that's that had made a big impression on him that Wow. Oh yeah.

27:58 Did I mention that Samuel Cal was also a deacon at the local church? Know you do. What the hell? Why are they always at the church? Either way, this is getting traumatic for everybody involved. So Louise actually take Ted and she moves Tacoma Washington. He's about four years old. It's 1950 at this point, he only knows the instability of a his very unwell father and equally unwell mom, they move in with their cousins, Alice Alan and Jane Scott. And at this point, both Louise and Ted went by the name Nelson, so that Louise could pretend And that she was a young Widow and no one would question.

28:43 Why she had this four-year-old boy? 1951, Louise meets Johnny, Culpepper Bundy. At a church single's night and the to fall in love, they get married in 1952 when Ted is 6 years old, Ted took his stepfathers name and that is how we know him to this day Bundy Louisa going to have four more children with Johnny but from the beginning Ted never felt like he was a member of the family because he didn't really know. He was Louise's son so like he was just these kids. Cousin, right? Not his brothers and sisters.

29:26 So he felt like he was just kind of hanging on. They live in a very small house, they had very little money. The relationship between Johnny and Ted was never very great that was shy and socially awkward. And he thought the key to people liking him was him having better clothes. And as a child he had these like fantasies. They were pretty significant because he would talk about it with people that he was going to be adopted by Roy Rogers and Dale Evans and he was going to get to live in a mansion and it was he really deserved better things. But Johnny was a working-class guy five foot four, and he worked in a hospital as a cook.

30:17 And interestingly enough when Dad was like six, he legitimately told like we're talking about his like kindergarten friends that he purposefully staged a public tantrum and peed himself in an attempt to embarrass his new father. Oh my God. Now, Louise Bundy has insisted even after bunnies execution, that his lack of a father, and his early years didn't affect him. She said he never asked about his dad because there were no other young kids in the neighborhood and she never mentioned him and he she said he never asked both dr. Judith Lewis. And I agree that a lot of the things Louise has said in interviews, sounds like she's hiding a lot of stuff and even yeah, even in the 80s when she was an older.

31:05 And at this point she was still kind of Saving Face for her family. I don't see why I like you're already that would like just spill the beans we need. Yeah, I still wonder. Yeah, but uh, since Louise was so secretive about his father, Ted begin to make up his own story and it wasn't good, because that's kind of what kids do. He filled in the blanks since his mother wouldn't he assumed? He was unwanted, he had been abandoned, he told a Utah, State Prison psychologist after he was caught later on. That when he was 13 years old, he found his birth certificate and it said, father, unknown.

31:52 Ted told the doctor that it didn't matter to him, but I think from some of the other interviews that I've read that this created a kind of a separation between Ted and his mom. Like, so, this always happens a lot when they pull a serial killer in, they make them do little tester. Member I told you that Anthony Sal had to answer questions when he was in prison. Yes, yes. Anthony Sal would say things like, I love my mom and he was deeply abused by his mother. Ted never said I love my mom. He would say things like she paid the bills. I had a roof over my head.

32:35 She never yelled at me as a child. That's a disconnect. Even if it's not like a aggressive or violent disconnect, but it's just a very it's a line there between him believing what that she loved him or not. You're right? Yeah. He also told one of his girlfriends later in life that when he was about 10 or 12 cousin told him, he was a bastard and that was when he became distinctly angry with Louise for making him a vulnerable to humiliation. Didn't care about the actual state of his father of his father. Just that people knowing that. Or thinking that made him meant, they could humiliate him. So he said whether it was 13 or 24 like he told animal, it's a moment of his life that I would consider to be upsetting and the beginning of a downward spiral.

33:36 It's probably a big surprise to people listening that he was not a Charming child. The media has pushed really hard at the idea that Ted Bundy was charming and charismatic and he might have been in his, like, personal life as an adult, but he wasn't with strangers, and he wasn't when he was little It was he had heard he was very awkward. Had a speech impediment. He wasn't very athletic. He failed to make the high school, basketball team and baseball teams. Every time he applied, he was this loner who had these grandiose plans for himself and even a minor failure. Failure was considered unacceptable to him. He was completely oblivious on how to talk to girls at all. And only went on one date in high school. Like I said, so we're going to give a pause here, one of. So we have what we know are Ted's original attacks and murders but there's one that people have suspected for a little while and it's the rumor or the concept that he killed a child in his neighborhood when he was 14 years old. This is something that police in Tacoma have been looking at in Washington as recently as 2019.

35:01 A little girl by the name of Anne-Marie bird went missing from her home and Acoma on August 31st, 1961 Bundy and his family lived literally like three blocks away. Her mother woke up checked on each of the kids in the morning and an wasn't in her bed. Her room showed no sign of struggle, their living room window was open. And when the police arrived, they noticed, one of the garden benches had been pulled up to the window and there was a shoe Prime. They went door-to-door in the community looking for her, but one of the issues that happened here was that they all lived next to like within blocks of the University of Puget Sound and the University was under heavy construction at this time. So there was a lot of traffic in the area with a lot of strangers coming in and out of the region and older siblings went to the construction site and saw that there were all these ditches. And so, they went to the police and were like, She's probably there, like, she's probably in one of those construction ditches.

36:04 And then by the time, the police came like only a couple days later they had paved over the entire area. Oh, what the hell? Police work wasn't as fast. Back then. But yeah, so I mean the the prevailing belief is that a man's body is under the university, which is sad. But the question is, why do people believe that he did this? Well, 14 year old, Ted was a terror in Tacoma and his little area. He was known for killing animals in pretty grotesque ways. He was stealing people's pets, so they want fire pulling them apart while they're still alive, he was also a well-known peeping, Tom. Tom, he would walk by people's windows and look inside. He was specifically looking for women. He would also walk into people's backyards. And touch their underwear.

37:04 Specifically, women's underwear a Woman by the name of Sandy. Holt says that when they were teenagers he attacked her, he's straight-up walked up to her. Grabbed her t-shirt and was like, come on little sister. I want to show you something and Sandy was like, no, and he straight up like was like, no, you're going with me and he tried to drag her away, Sadie's, brother was like coming up the block and saw this. Took off chasing him, jumped on his back, knocked him on the ground and just started whooping his ass as you should as he deserved a brother was like, listen, don't you ever put your hands on my sister ever again I'll fuck you up again.

37:47 Unfortunately, on top of the gross Behavior as a teenager. Once he was caught and convicted and on death row, he started talking to the media and in 1986 he began talking hypothetically about his first murder. ER, and how it happened when he was a teen, and how he took a child out of her home, took her into the orchard near her home, molested her, and then left her in a ditch. Come on. So of course Ann's mother saw this her name was Bev and she wrote to him and the article, the letter is something she just straight-up was like, I feel like your first murder was my Anne-Marie, burn the bench from the backyard was used to climb into living room, the orchard next door.

38:30 Was a dark setting for murder. What did you do with her tiny body? And she said, like, I figure Viv you Bev's. Letter is pretty much. At this point like I know you're talking about stuff because you want the appeals to go through the appeals, aren't going to happen, you're gonna die, you've got nothing left to lose, confess your sins to me. And God Of course, face was being honest, he denies it. And he sends her a letter saying. At the time I was a normal 14 year. Old boy, I did not wander the streets late at night and I did not steal cars. I had absolutely no desire to harm. Anyone, I was just an average kid and he signed it piece.

39:10 Ted! That is absolutely a lie. He did wander the streets during the day and night and he did steal cars. And that's confirmed details and then just a fucking dismissiveness. Goddamn, I hate you so much. Yeah, the piece. Ted fuck. So, unfortunately, there wasn't a whole lot of DNA taken at the time. They're trying to like the police are still trying to see if anything could be connected to him and Marie burst case is still cold but people like Rebecca Morris who wrote the book Tad and an the mystery of a missing child and her neighbor, Ted Bundy. They think he was telling the truth. He told a lot of Truth before he died. So while we don't know, if this was his first murder, like I said, we do know that he told his biographers in prison that this was also the time that he got interested in sexual violence just as quickly as he admitted this to one writer though, he would then turn around and it completely deny it to another.

40:20 And one thing that we know about power and control serial killers, is that these thoughts and feelings? Don't arrive randomly, he didn't just become like 25 and decide to start sexually assaulting people. They start fairly young and they build over time. I'm sure it wasn't lost on anyone listening to Bundy that he was harming animals. At a young age that hits the psychopath Triad that we've talked about many other times. And I'm referencing the the psychological breakdown of serial killers created by John Douglas and Robert wrestler. In 1972 Bundy falls into what's called a power and control.

41:00 Killer these like these kind of killers like to exert power and dominance over their victims and the sexual attacks are a means of doing that and it's safe to say that Ted felt very helpless in regards to has life. He didn't have the life he wanted, he felt he deserved more in terms of financial success and things. So, some of these depictions of sexual violence were ways that he might have been finding too. Feel powerful, even while he feels like he has no power like other things. He also denies but also admitted to was when he was in high school hunting through garbage cans for pictures and videos of pornography that people throughout Also, when I mention he was a Peeping Tom and women, the community were already freaked out about him.

41:59 He also broke into a couple pieces people's houses and he got caught and he also like he got caught stealing a car when he was in high school, but it got expunged from his record when he turned 18. Didn't he write in a letter to? He didn't do any cars. Yes, indeed, he did. I told you he was just straight up lying, okay? Good to bad burn. Dude, come on. Okay, whatever area. And then the breaking into houses? Would you break into houses for just to peep closer? I think he's trying to steal porn and anything else you can find, just go to a store and still it. God you weren't allowed to, well, I got here, okay. Either way, graduate from high school, he ends up at the University of Puget, Sound just around the corner of his house for undergrad.

42:51 He was only there for two semesters. He transferred to the University of Washington for a sophomore year. He didn't like the students at Puget and he didn't like them because it was a it's actually like a small liberal arts college. And you know what that means? It's expensive and a lot of the kids who went to that college, have more money than him. So he transfers to Washington is studying Chinese studies. He might he meets, he's got his, his first dorm is McMahon Hall and that's where he meets his first girlfriend.

43:31 His first girlfriend has spoken to people but she has no interest in being known. So, for our purposes, we'll use the same name that and roll used, which is Stephanie Brooks, but that's not actually her real name. She wants not, she wanted nothing to do with the memory of Ted Bundy. The to bond over our love of skiing and despite him not liking the wealthy kids of Puget Sound. He didn't mind the very smart wealthy and pretty Stephanie. During this time to kind of Keep Up Appearances. He works two jobs.

44:12 He volunteers with the Republican Party, he ended up working for the office. That was trying to get Nelson Rockefeller elected president. In fact, Stephanie and Todd went to the 1968, Republican National Convention and then Stephanie broke up with him. she told an rule that it was because of his lack of ambition bad grades and immaturity, hey, He responded to the loss of his first love by dropping out of college and leaving Washington. He stopped in Colorado, visited family in Arkansas to. Then he went back to Philadelphia and rolled in Temple University for a semester and then moved back to Washington in 1969.

44:59 Many of the psychologist who evaluated Ted once he was captured say that this breakup was the Catalyst in his life. The thing that caused him to kill, they relate this to the fact that Stephanie had long dark straight hair that she always were parted in the middle and several of his victims. Look like this. Ted has denied this, he denied it sit until his death. Saying that the only thing his victims need to be for him to grab them was Active and half of his victims are blond. It. What did you find attractive? What did you find attractive, sir? These blocks. Okay, that looked like your first low so yes, obviously I don't know, I kind of agree with that.

45:42 I'm I agree with that too. I think because a couple of them fit the bill but like he wasn't always He hits organized, he gets organized and disorganized but like the first kill was a blonde girl and if it matters that much in the beginning they would have all been brunettes. Hmm. So my just been a coincidence. Yeah I think it was a good event a coincidence that we've created this connection here. but, Back in Washington, 1969, he's 23. He gets into a relationship with a lady by the name of Liz klopfer.

46:25 She works as a secretary at the University of Washington School of Medicine. She was divorced, she had a daughter. They met at a bar and Liz originally rejected him when he asked her to dance, but eventually they had a conversation and she realized she liked him even if he was a bad dancer. The relationship was hot and heavy from the start. She said she loved him right away. And just like Stephanie she encouraged him to do better for himself only this time. He actually tried he re-enrolled in college in 1970 this time majoring in Psychology and by all accounts he was a very good student. This is when he also began volunteering at the Seattle Suicide Hotline Crisis Center on Capitol Hill.

47:10 This gave him credits toward his degree and If we're honest, it also allowed him to feel like he was in control of people's lives. So it gave him a little bit of that boost that he wanted. At least for a time. It was a safe Outlet, not the crisis center, that's where he met and became friends with an rule. She was a former police officer turned crime reporter and of course. And it know that her new friend was going to start killing people pretty soon and getting a little bit ahead of myself. Tech graduates with his degree in Psychology in 1972. He starts working for the Washington governor, Daniel Evans during his re-election campaign. Do you know how he made himself useful? Wow.

48:02 He would pretend to be a college student and then go and volunteer at the opponent's office, learn like the talking points and secrets and then turn those over to the governor. So, he was a mole. Highly unethical mmm-hmm, but the chairman of the Republican party in Washington thought, this was impressive and hired a Ted to become his assistant, of course, of course. They would, of course not. Well, he had goals of being a lawyer, but he had awful test scores. But with his very new and Powerful friends who sent recommendation letters to him, he entered the Puget Sound law program and he starts Law School in 1973. Now, back in Tacoma, he hooks up with Stephanie again. Stephanie had graduated and moved to California. So he's maintaining these two long distance relationships. Stephen he's like, well, dang, you actually made something out of yourself.

49:07 We can date. He doesn't break up with Liz. He leaves Liz in and he even introduces people that Stephanie as his fiancee. Oh my God everything's going great. And then he goes to her and the fall of 1974. She said she called him for a month and he picked up one time to Gaslight the ever living crap out of her. By saying, what are you talking about? We haven't dated since 6 1968, Stephanie just chalked it up to him, trying to get revenge from undergrad and moved on with her life.

49:55 Okay? I would. Yeah. Yeah, but I did 74. He's working for the Washington State Department of Emergency Services. He becomes friends with a lady named Carol and Bun which was platonic at first, but Carol would become his wife eventually, but that comes a lot later. 1974 is when everything changes he's Ultra Moody erratic. First time, he's violent toward his girlfriend Liz and Washington. Their relationship had always been Rocky like they would break up and then he would be like no, no, no, I was wrong.

50:36 In fact, once they even got a marriage license at the courthouse in 1970, but she hadn't told her parents that the two of them were living together yet. And so her family came to visit. Visit one time and she was like, Hey, can you move all your stuff back to your apartment while they're here? And he got really mad and he tore up the marriage license because back then you know you're not supposed to live together until you're actually married. Okay. Okay. Things like that happen all the time, he wasn't violent with her until 1974 and later that year would be when she began to think that he was the man killing the college girls. He would get really weird when she'd asked him. Why is there a meat cleaver in your desk? Why are you carrying surgical gloves in your code every day? These aren't these aren't signs to let me know. She she she she did she did.

51:35 Yeah, yeah she would go on to report him in July of 1974 and again in 75 but um well it all start the, the starts in January and I'm going to let you know, her people, listening there is a murder a month. For the next solid year. Sometimes more than once in a day. We're going to go through those now, this is probably the lengthy is section of here. This is just 1974 and it's real long. So Ted did his best to lie and Confused cops about when his first murders began. You know, he was always trying to like really pissed them off and just not be honest about what he was doing.

52:20 But one thing we do know is January, 4th, 1974 and Washington. Oregon Karen Sparks who sometimes goes by the name, Johnny Lee. Ends now was attacked in her bed. She was 18 years old. She was a student at the University of Washington. She lived in a basement bedroom and she had three male roommates who lived upstairs? And Ted Bundy climbed into her bedroom and be her with a metal rod and then use that Rod to sexually assault her. It was a very violent and traumatic sexual assault it. Ruptured her bladder, she believes that the only reason he didn't kill her is because Her roommate started moving around upstairs, and he got spooked. And he ran away, she was left unconscious and bleeding and her roommates checked in on her, in the morning, and found her. Karen remembers that at like 1:00 in the morning. She remembers like, you know, you kind of look at a window and you see something real fast and then you look again and it's gone?

53:34 Yeah, yeah. She thought she saw somebody looking her window at about 1 a.m. She was just like, no, I imagined it, that was him. And in fact he had been watching her for days. He had he saw her at a laundromat. And more than likely followed her, her her bedroom in the basement was convenient for him. and again, like I said, Karen was a blonde girl. Now, his first murder. We know came a month later in February, her name was Linda and Healy. She was studying psychology at the University of Washington. Her goal was to work with students with disabilities. And she worked for the school's whether like the radio station as the weather reporter in 1974.

54:20 She was a senior and she moved into a house with her friends. And she usually woke up before everybody else, because she had to go to the radio job. The last time she was seen, Was on January 31st when she stopped by one of her roommates rooms at about 11:30 p.m. just to talk the next morning, she wasn't in her room. When her alarm went off at 5:30, that's when her roommates went to turn the alarm off. And saw she wasn't there, and then Linda's boss called shortly after. And was like, she never showed up for work. And she also missed a family dinner and her mom from Seattle called looking for her.

55:03 That was the point when her roommates went like into her room to look because before they were just like, oh we're not going to mess with it. Like the only thing somebody did was just walk in, turn the alarm off and leave. This time when they went in, they saw that some of her sheets were missing and the ones that were on the bed still like some of them had little specks of blood on them. It appears that he tried to remove most of it though. They called the police. There was no evidence. In 1978, Ted admitted that he lie was his first victim. Her skull was found at the Taylor Mountain dump site.

55:45 She was more than likely bludgeoned to death. Now, his next victim was Donna Gil, Manson. She was 19 and he didn't admit this murder until days before he was executed in 89. She went to Evergreen State College. She lived in Olympia Washington, she left her home for a jazz concert on March 12. Never seen again, Ted admitted that it was in March that he perfected his ruse. He was working at a medical supply company and he'd steal supplies and pretend to be injured. He would wear a cast who had walk on crutches, he had an arm sling.

56:28 He asked someone walking home to help him to his car and once you got close enough to his car he would abduct you. Hmm. Ted told reporters that he left Donna at the Taylor Mountain dump site but her remains were never recovered. It's believed that the Pierce County Sheriff's Office, actually had those remains in 1978 when two fishermen found a human skull and bones hair and a shirt and the foothills of Mount Rainer, But 19th, they were never tested and those remains were lost. It's believed the police didn't take this missing persons report seriously because Donna is, what was what police wanted to refer to as high risk? I don't like this terminology but I'll explain to you what it is.

57:20 Okay? So high-risk victims are people that the police think are more at risk for violence because they hang out around criminals or crib the criminal element. Sometimes that means that you're doing drugs in the 70s, Donna might have been the kind of girl to stay out late. She wasn't a good girl. I see what you mean. Yeah. So then we have the opposite of that which are low-risk victims. I'm sure you can imagine that. People didn't start making connections until a couple of low-risk victims were murdered by 10.

58:02 April brings The Disappearance of Susan Elaine Rancourt on April 17th. 1974 she was 18. College student Central, Washington State College, in Ellensburg, that night, she had gone to a meeting for students who are interested in being dorm counselors. Next semester and somewhere between that meeting room on campus and going back to her dorm room disappeared. People knew something was wrong because Susan was never late. She never missed appointments the night of the meeting. She had put laundry in the dorm washing machine with the intention that when she got back from her meeting, she was going to finish it. So the fact that her laundry was still, there was also assigned to people that something was off.

58:49 Sorry, it's okay. Shortly after her disappearance, other girls on campus reported, there was an older man with his arm in a sling who kept asking them to help. Carry his books. Back to his car. That car was at an Volkswagen Beetle. Same car that Ted Bundy drove was this like an everyday thing that he would ask these seven girls know. This was this day. Oh okay. Oh another student named Kathleen. Da Laveau told the police that she had helped the man Same night that Susan disappeared but he gave her a weird vibe and he was kind of disheveled. So like legitimately as soon as she they got to the car, she like dumped his book goes on the hood and like walked off. So she didn't get close enough to the the passenger or the the doors essentially for him to be able to grab her and pull her in, right?

59:43 There's another woman named Jane Curtis. She reported that the same thing happened to her three days earlier. Only he had opened the car door and told her to get inside and she just ran away. From him, smart. Just like, with Donna, he admitted this killing days before he was executed, her skull was recovered at the Taylor Mountain dump site. Now, like I said, police were aware of the disappearances on campus, there was no physical evidence, and if you're listening, these locations are like, 50, 60 miles apart. This is a very like this is him being an organized killer, very calculated specifically going to different locations because it puts him in different police jurisdictions.

1:00:28 And even in 2022, cops don't always like working with each other. Now, Liz club for was like, he's spent a lot of time out at night and he keeps coming home later and later and the News begins running information on how collagen college girls can protect themselves. If they have to be out at night, a lot of people are cautious. Another girl goes missing, May 6, 1974 Roberta Kathleen Parks, she's a student at Oregon State University and she leaves her dorm just to get a drink from the Union just after eleven like it's, we're talking a couple minute, walk a friend.

1:01:11 Even saw her walking toward the cafeteria and they like stopped for a second, you know, had a little chitchat and then she went into the building, she never made it back to her dorm This was 250 miles away from the other crimes. Her skull was also found at Taylor mountain and he admitted this murder the night before his execution. May 31st Brenda Carol bell is out drinking at the flame. Tavern in Burien Washington she goes missing. Brenda was actually unenrolled from college and kind of lost on her path. You know, she's taking some time off to figure out where she wanted to be.

1:01:56 When she grew up, you know, she ended up ask like telling her friend. She wanted to go home and her friends were like, no, we're staying. So she decided she was probably going to hitchhike home. Witnesses saw her talking to a man in a parking lot. At two am, his arm was in a sling. Similarly to Donna before the police didn't really see her cases. Very urgent because she was a College Dropout who like to drink late at night. She in fact, wasn't officially reported missing until June 17th. Two weeks after she was already long gone and just love how they categorize these.

1:02:36 These women are going this and now it's really annoying awful. It's really hmm. Well, he speed things up a little bit. There's not a month in between this, there's like two weeks Georgian Hawkins, she was 18 years old and that was the end of her first year at the University of Washington. She left a fraternity party. So, she could go study for a Spanish test. One of her friends, saw her walking on the street from her dorm room, and he was like, Hey, and so, she stopped and they kind of talked to the window for a little bit. Dwayne remembered hearing a man, laughing from a nearby alley way. He just assumed it was was a drunk person. Ted would confirm days before his execution that he was the man in the alley.

1:03:21 He coerced Georgian into the alley by pretending. He had a broken leg and was hobbling on crutches as soon as she got close to him, he hit her over the head with a crowbar. Dragged her into his car. Her remains were found at what is referred to as the Issaquah site and 1975. Which is not that far from Taylor Mountain. But the Seattle PD actually did try and do a thorough investigation they went through. The entire area, where Duane it last seen her checking that alley, but they got no evidence Witnesses. Remember a man with crutches asking for help and of course he was seen. And the tan Volkswagen was seen to July is a big month.

1:04:03 This is the month that Liz realizes something's very wrong. It's also the money the same time that he abducted two women on the same day. This is what psychiatrist and others who study cereals called serial killers, or call an escalation. And generally when there's an escalation, it means that the Killer's losing control. I'm not sure that we can say that he was losing control, but he definitely is fine. Tuning, his his Mo finding more efficient lies to get women to come with him. So, he's kind of like, pushing his, I'd say he's not losing control but he's like, pushing. He knows what he's doing now. So he's like, maybe I can do more this time in. See how he would get away with this time.

1:04:44 Okay, okay, Essie Essie Essie. Unfortunately, when the actual Diva Lucien happens, that'll be it. That's already, I already wrote part of that. That's in Mexico. Comcast, it's real bad. Like Ted Bundy in control. Pretty bad out of control, awful. But he would, you like you said he was more, he was getting more Bolder. This is the first time he kidnaps anybody during the daytime, this day is July, July 14. Both of these disappearance happened at the Lake Sammamish State Park. His first victim, was 23, year-old Janice Ott. The state park is in Issaquah, and it's about 20 miles east of Seattle.

1:05:27 There's a beach by the lake, and it was like a nice bright Sunday at the beach. He was there wearing an all-white tennis outfit with his arm in a sling. That day, at least five women reported This creepy guy, approaching them with his arm in a sling and asking for help unhitching, his boat. Now, one of those women was a woman named, Janice Graham, and she actually walked with him to the parking lot, and then she saw that his boat wasn't there and she turned around and walked away from him as you should. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I got it. I'm sorry. Hold on, hold on. You have your arm in a sling.

1:06:09 How are you going to use your boat sir? I know, I thought that too. I was like, buddy. That's a really weird Ruth. But unfortunately for Janice Ott She's a probation officer had just gotten married. She was at the lake lying down reading a book and a witness named Sylvia can't who is 15? Told the police that she heard the conversation between Ted and and Janice, she's still as Sylvia said that she heard him introduce himself is Ted and then he need help attaching his sailboat to his car, which was at his parents house just down the road. Janice agreed to help him, she was never seen again.

1:06:54 Four hours later he returns to the lake, which is now even busier there. He zeroes in on 19 year old computer programmer, Denise Rich Marine asselin, she's there with her boyfriend and a couple of her friends. The group's all sitting around drinking having a good time. Everyone got a little buzzed and kind of fell asleep at that point, Denise walked off probably to use the bathroom, but she never came back. No one saw her, leave the area and no one saw her. Again, the group woke up and they looked for her, they couldn't and find her. Her car was in the parking lot. Her purse was still there. Her wallet was still inside of it. Denise's. Boyfriend bless his heart calls her parents before he calls the cops.

1:07:35 In fact, he calls like her mom and it's like, oh my God, Denise is missing and Denise's parents call the police mhm, both Janice and Denise were found a year later at the Issaquah dump site but this was the first time the police had any kind of elite. He used his real name. Someone heard, you know, Saul you heard that the car was using And now the police were pretty sure that these disappearances were linked to the mysterious and Ted in the tan Volkswagen. She got a car named nice. Well, and now there's enough Witnesses who were able to give King County Police more evidence for a comp a composite because normally people were only seeing him at night time.

1:08:19 This, this sketch was put everywhere and Regional news every newspaper. Now this case falls on the lap of Robert capital and if you are a dutiful listener to the podcast, you're going to remember that. Robert couple one, he's kind of a serial killer Rockstar. He's considered at this point, but he also was one of the Consultants on the Green River. Killer task force But in 74, capitals of rookie investigator. and actually, he makes a You know, he decides with this is a serial killer and we need to let King County know that there's a serial killer around.

1:09:00 That was a personally, I think that was a very smart decision. So the problem is, when he informed King County that there's a serial killer in their midst, they were getting roughly. 200 tips a day Wow, those tips. Liz, klopfer called in. I think my boyfriend is the person you're showing on the TV and Rule calls in. I think the man you're looking for is someone, I used to work with one of Ted's professors like psychology professors calls it. All of those tips were lost in the gigantic flow of information coming in.

1:09:47 Eventually, the police would end up using an old payroll computer which allowed them to input data, and they weren't able to see eventually that multiple people reported him. But there was still no physical evidence linking him to the crimes. He slows down after his face is all over, Seattle moves to Olympia in August of 1974. He and Liz are on the Rocks. He continues to write her letters telling her that he loves her. So this kind of keeps a torch for her years later when he was on death row, he called please and he admitted to trying to kill her one night before he moved to Olympia. Oh my God. Started a fire in the fireplace and I guess they had been having some drinks and He put a like, you put a rag, like, a wet rag under the door and he closed the fireplace flue. And let's just says he remembers waking up, and she couldn't breathe.

1:10:49 She opened a window and she put the fire out. She thought it was a mistake. But Ted said that he felt the need to kill overwhelmingly and he tried really hard not to hurt her. Liz dad. That was probably the only time that happened. Strangely enough Ted said that he really loved her and the love that he had for her was destabilizing. That was his exact word, which I think is really interesting because perhaps, if he had may be focused on the love thing and not, you know, those feelings instead of the homicidal feelings, maybe things would have ended differently for a lot of people, but instead he ran away to Utah.

1:11:32 Now, he told everyone that knew him through work. He was leaving because he didn't enjoy studying law at the University of Puget Sound. He told Lance he was going to finish his program at the University of Utah and he drove there on September 2nd just before his execution. He told the police he was driving through Boise, Idaho, he picked up a th haircut hitchhiker. She said she was like 16 or 18. He said he raped and dumped her but investigators don't believe this. Is true. Because that doesn't line up with missing women, in the area at the time and he knew details when he would tell them about other crimes.

1:12:15 So this one where he's just like, yeah, picked up some random, girl. I remember what she looks like and I dropped her in some random place. I don't remember where like that doesn't fit anything. Because so far, all of his victims were two different dump sites, they were special to him. He didn't he didn't stop back to, Assault them like Ridgeway did but he did go back. It was could be near them, always go back. These kinds, yeah. So the police decided that he made this up to try and push back his execution, he started dropping lots of names and information to try and push the execution back, but he pretended to work on his law degree.

1:13:04 But instead he embarked on a six-week killing spring, starting in October 16th of 1974 in Utah, his first victim is Nancy Wilcox. It's October 2nd, she's a high school cheerleader, who lived in Holiday, Day, which is a small like Suburban town outside of Salt Lake City. He didn't even use a ruse this time, he just straight up pulls a knife on her walks and he drags her into an orchard. He told the police that he actually didn't intend to kill her just rape her but Nancy fought back, real hard and he said that he had to choke her to death and this was the first time that he had to rape her rape someone after they were dead. You see happy.

1:13:53 So he he very much in this situation, he wanted to exert his control by sexually assaulting someone. He told the police, he did need to kill Nancy. There were other times in his Call it a serial killer career that he needed to kill and this is something that also Ed camper discussed when he was in prison. That it's a compulsion. So when Ted says, I didn't need to kill Nancy, what he means is he doesn't feel compelled to kill her but instead because she was screaming and fighting him, he killed her, but he still wanted to sexually assault her. That was the one that was the desire there. So he did it after she was dead.

1:14:41 He also didn't drive her to one of the dumpsites, he tells the police, he disposed of her remains at the Capitol Reef National Park. The police respond to her parents, very worried reports by assuming she's a runaway. They don't investigate her death until 1998, 3, 1989. I put that in 89. Ok, well still so bad. Same year that he's executed. Yes, no behead. Yeah, anyway, is that victim is 17 year-old Melissa? Ann Smith. The daughter of Louis Smith. The The police chief and medieval Midvale medieval was a lot like holiday and that it's a small community where everybody knew each other another suburb of Salt Lake City, October 18th, Melissa's walking home from dinner with her friends at about 10 p.m., she actually called her parents from the pizza parlor and said, hey, we're all leaving.

1:15:43 I'm heading home. Never arrives, just like Nancy, he Blitz. Attacked her beat her raped. Her killed her laughter on a hillside in Summit County Utah, she was discovered Two Weeks Later by some deer hunters on October 27th. This is where things. Get real weird. When she is found on October 27th, forensics alert. The Police that she has only been dead for two days. Which means that Ted Bundy kept her for nine days, total or more about 70. During that time, he washed her hair put makeup on her painted her nails. Her cause of death was blunt-force trauma to the Head. This is a complete deviation from the other crimes. Yeah.

1:16:37 Still the October murders aren't over Halloween, 1974, 17, year-old Laura and aim goes missing. She was the from the city of Lehigh, which is about 25 minutes outside of Seattle. Walking home from a cafe, a little after midnight. She also Blitz attacks her, he admitted to also doing his bizarre ritual with Lara to She was found in the American Fork Canyon by some hikers. November comes in Ted drops out of college. He'd only been to a couple classes. He was obviously very busy holding women in his home.

1:17:18 One week after kidnapping Laura aim, he attacks 18 year old carril DE Ranch, she was at the Fashion, Police shopping mall, and Murray Utah on November 8th. When she says, a man dressed like a police officer walked up to her, told her her car had been broken into Carol, gets into the car with him and she's like he's like we're going to go file some paperwork at the police station but she realizes that he is not taking her to police station. She tells him this and he tries to handcuff her but while he's driving and she ended up struggling with him and he hooked both of them on the same arm, she opens the car door and just leaps out.

1:18:01 Smart smart. Little smart one. Yeah, he's not trying to deal with the struggle, so he just drives on my God. Now, Carol actually goes to the real police. Tell us about this encounter. She gives a perfect description of him and his car. And she said, while they were struggling, he even got some of his blood on her jacket, which she gives over to the police, as well as is, he saw driving a Volkswagen, I just I'm absolutely is hmm. Unfortunately, while the police are taking Carol statement and processing this Evidence. He heads on over to Bountiful Utah which isn't that far away and he kidnaps seventeen-year-old, Debbie Kent.

1:18:42 It's about 19 miles away from Marie, which is where Carol Durant was. So I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Is it is, is it like, normal for, like serial killers, like to switch up their MO like that? Like this start kidnapping and so they just like, like, no murdering. So it's not normal, it's interesting here because like I said he says he doesn't feel the need to kill as much. He wants to assault. He wants us off them, okay? Huh, I do. I think this was calculated. I think this was a way to confuse police.

1:19:29 But so you think it's somebody else and I write so that they would think it was a different kind of killer. Yeah. Yeah. All right, I mean, at this point profiling was in its infancy. But regardless Debbie left her parent of the her parents at the school. Play to go pick up her brother from the local ice rink. She told her parents, she'd be back with her brother, Debbie never came back. Her parents thought she forgot and walk to their friend's house and there they saw her car. It was locked. Her purse was still inside. It was like where they have parked it like a real couple blocks away.

1:20:09 Debbie never made it to the ice rink. The Bountiful Police insisted that she was a runaway and they wouldn't follow the police report until 24 hours have passed. So, the community does their own search around the school and they find a key. It's very tiny key the kind of key that you would use to lock handcuffs. Hmm. In fact, the same key that was able to unlock Carol dorantes, handcuffs that she had given in the police and Marie. So the police are now like crap, same guy. It wouldn't be another 14 years before he admitted that he killed her and he actually said he took her body. 100 miles south of Bountiful to Fairview Utah.

1:20:54 They only ever found her patella and that wasn't they were able to DNA sequence that in 2015 2015 Yeah, they don't have confirmation of the her identity, until 2015. Wow. 1975 starts with the press in a frenzy for murders and attempted abduction, just outside of Salt Lake City, Liz somehow hears about these murders. And so she submits another tip to King County Police Department saying, she's convinced your boyfriend is a serial killer. In fact, she sends these messages to King King County and Salt Lake City Police. So Ted's now on both police precincts list of potential killers, they still don't do anything they say lack of evidence.

1:21:50 Yeah, but he tapped. I'm sorry, I'm glad keep thinking no know what you're upset. I know you're gonna get you're getting emotional about this. Steaks with cara de Ranch. So he leaves. Utah satisfy ton, Colorado. Instead January, 12th 1975. He abducts 23 year old Karen Campbell from Wildwood Inn in Aspen Colorado. Karen was there with her fianc�� and his children to children, they were all hanging out in the lobby of the hotel. Karen went upstairs to get a magazine somewhere between the lobby and their hotel room.

1:22:33 He grabs her, she was raped and killed and found a month later nude in a snowbank. Not Far from the hotel next murder. March fifteenth twenty six-year-old Julie Cunningham she's a ski instructor in Vail Colorado. I don't know if maybe the passing time made people feel safer or the fact that it was 100 miles away from Aspen, but Julie was on her way to meet friends at a Tavern and she just never arrived. Ted went back to his old Mo of pretending to be hurt to get women to feel bad for him. He was carrying crutches and he was asking women to help carry his ski items back to his car.

1:23:13 Julie was beaten. And he later on mentioned that this time, he he he After first, so that he wouldn't make the same mistake as with Carol, then he drove. Julie, 90 miles away to Rifle, Colorado, and raped and strangled her. He has admitted to, he admitted to killing her, but they have never found her remains. April 6, he abducts 25 year-old Denise Lind, Oliver said she was riding her bike to her parents house and Grand Junction Colorado, she never arrived her body has never been found. He told the police that he dumped her remains in the Colorado River about five miles away from her, he abducted her.

1:23:55 But again, no evidence. May 6 May 6 he deviates again this time abducting twelve-year-old Lynette Dawn, Culver from Pocatello in the Idaho pocket l0 is 160 miles north of Salt Lake City. And this is his one of his youngest victims. He abducted her. As she was leaving. School, took her to a hotel, where he raped her and drowned her in the bathroom. He told the police later that he dumped her body in the Snake River as a diversion, so that the police would stop looking for him and other areas and he said, he changed his methodology to throw off the police. June 28th.

1:24:38 He picked he looks he takes 15 year-old Susan cross. She's at a youth conference at Brigham Young University. She was from Bountiful actually which is very like coincidental. Last she was last seen at a formal banquet, wearing a yellow gown on the first night of the two-day conference. She left in the middle of the event to brush her teeth. Maybe she has some garlic and she just felt like I couldn't do any kissing, right? Yeah. 82. Garlic food. Right? Right. Okay. He kidnapped her on her way. Back to the dorm. He admitted before his execution that he buried her near Price Utah. Her remains have never been found throughout. All of this Bundy is managed to frustrate dozens of police departments because he's kidnapping each young girl on a different jurisdiction but also dumping them in a different jurisdiction.

1:25:33 Shinto. So after the Lake Sammamish, murders in July of 74 police actually put out a request to everyone who was there that day. If you had a camera, we need a copy of your film. They were sure that somebody had seen the killer, he was in the background of somebody's picture. They wanted to compare it to the sketches. They already had right now, September 7, 1974, hikers ended up finding remains scattered over a huge area. This is the Issaquah site. They discover the remains of three women who were later id'd, as Janice Ott, Denise naslund, and Georgian Hawkins There were over 400 pieces of evidence collected from Escuela.

1:26:25 This confirmed for the parents of these young women, no one ran away. They were definitely murdered. so, Everything goes poorly for. Ted, what? He's arrested for speeding through the residential area of Granger Utah on August, 16th 1975. Can I just? Can I just, I just think it's always a smallest thing they could call on it is what as hell? Honestly, it's only the Green River Killer, who got caught because they were like We're doing the hard science here. What was it?

1:27:09 The Yorkshire Ripper. Same thing. Yep, it's just it's just it's it's funny to me, it's well here's what happens. This is purely his fault, 100%. So it's really early in the morning and arresting officer Sergeant Bob Hayward sees this guy and he's like going a little fast and it's a residential district. So he just wants to stop him and be like, yo, buddy kids live here, hmm. Instead tell precedes to hit the gas and lead him, this becomes a high-speed chase on the highway.

1:27:52 When they finally catch em, they just want to grab them for being Reckless, like, reckless driving. And then they see that his passenger seat as missing. And there's a mask made from pantyhose and a crowbar in a set of handcuffs and an ice pick and and some rope. And hey words like we're gonna bring them in for the speeding but this is very suspicious. You're very amongst us. So then based on the fact that he had all these tools, a murder kit Heyward applies for a search warrant, and he gets it.

1:28:35 And honestly it was just it was also that he he was murder kit. He looked kind of like the composite sketch and he also was driving a tan VW Bug. But either way they get he gets a search warrant. They go into his apartment and they find proof of him being at the locations where women disappeared this isn't necessarily enough to arrest him. They also find handcuffs just like the ones used on Carol. The ranch and this is the beginning of them building a Ace. I love Carole to Ranch. I have read her. I read her story long before I research buddy, I loved her. Carol was ready. Okay, she's like I got you, I'll come in, he pulls it, calls him out of a police lineup, other Witnesses from Bountiful Utah. Identify him as the man creeping around campus, they charged him with aggravated kidnapping and attempted criminal assault for Carol.

1:29:31 Unfortunately, he's able to make his comically low bail of 15. Thousand dollars. Which means the only had to pay 1,500. Okay? Why so low? Something like for dangerous stuff though. Here's the next part for me which is really cool. So the detective on the case in Utah is Jerry Thompson and he's just like the only way we're going to get this guy on anything, I have to talk to other cops so he calls up detective.

1:30:11 Robert Capa from Washington detective. Michael Fisher from Colorado and he's just like let's meet up. Share evidence and they all agree. It takes about six months but he goes to trial for kidnapping Carroll d'orange on February 23rd 1976. He waives the right to a jury trial and he hires a lawyer. But during this case, he's a total asshole. He fires the guy, tries to interview Carol on the stand. Talking about this was a long time ago.

1:30:52 This was like a year ago. How do you know it was me? Yeah. Carol. Like the cool customer that she is. It's just like, I could never forget your face God. I just remember that part when he fired his lawyer and he wanted to question her himself of like you just I'll be absolutely did and he showed off. He's like Screaming and Swinging his arms, totally acting like an ass, right? Because he went to law school, right? He did go to law school for a year in like a week. Okay. So he knew enough even we know he sure felt like he did. Well. after being a total jerk while he like, Talk to Carol.

1:31:39 He's a total cool and collected guy in the courtroom judge, finds him guilty gives him one to 15 years in prison. Everyone involved is pleased. But it's not enough. It's definitely not enough for the cops who had faced the families of 18. Girls between 12 and 26 years old. So, Colorado begins looking into Karen Campbell's, murder and Aspen and Colorado, files charges for Karen's murder on October 22nd 1976. Ted was extradited in April of 1977 and unbeknownst to everyone involved. This is Ben, he begins planning his Escape. And that is where we will end this week. Well, well.

1:32:39 You talked about your boy. I don't like your boy. I'm not a fan of everybody's boy. It's your boy not my glasses. Your boys. And this is, this is America. Is this your boy America? It's your boy. Oh my God. Y'all like this guy side note, I left to remind women that has youngest victim was 12. Yeah. And there are two of them, which means it wasn't an accident. I mean, that's just like the same as Richard Ramirez. Like his he had young victims as well and people were just up. I'm like y'all see one? Semi decent photo of them in court. Art. And now, all of a sudden these guys are attractive.

1:33:22 I'm like, yeah, the lawyers do clean them up for court so that they can play on y'all emotions. That's exactly what they do. It was what they did. They make the guys look better and they downplay the girls if they look too cute. Yeah, if anyone wants to example of this lookup Jodi Arias, as what to say her online, pictures versus what she looked like in court. I was about to say and then they did the opposite for Casey Anthony. Uh-huh. Well, no, because they also Casey Anthony was also an issue, too. Because remember Casey Anthony went out like party, and yeah. And then when she went to court, then she was just like a homely, looking the papers. Look regular.

1:34:05 Yeah, same thing with Jodi Arias. Jodi Arias was like they put her in like a beggar. Sweater and they like had her like they had her go back to her natural hair color, which was brown. Yep. And they had her wear glasses, so it's interesting. But for the guys, they want you to be as attractive as possible for the women drawers. Weird free. Anyway, Brian. What's your portion of the day? Going to be about I don't know if my can like it and I hope hopefully mine brings enough levity to this damn podcast today.

1:34:48 That was frustrating. They listened to, I swear to God Bernie. All right, it's always frustrating. I know always, it's always fresh. Excuse me. See because this video, you cut that out. This is just audio. You can just go flip. It's okay. Okay. Let's cleanse the palate, something. Less depressing. Yes, and the continued failures of our justice system. Let's so today I will be talking about one of your favorite things. Oh, what's that? Aliens, I don't hate you aliens.

1:35:33 I just don't believe everything is alien. That's what messes me up. That was, it makes me angry. People are like, oh, this everything aliens and like, it's not, it's not, everything's not aliens. This is true. Everything is not the only ones in this story. May not be aliens actually. Thank goodness. Oh, it may really be Alice. So this is like with the Flatwoods Monster, okay? I'm kind of talking about talking about, of course it does. Look, it's the Cryptid wearing a little dress. Yeah.

1:36:20 And that Speedway Flatwoods t-shirt. I mean maybe later this year, as much as he could probably do that. Listen, I could be the one that I told you. I want. I know. We're going to get when I get that. I'm gonna get that. I want the a Squatch. Okay, so we got the big but Mom. But donk a donk. Now we will have an a spot. Is this team just going to be booties Azure? Maybe it could be, just what? So, we'll talk about that later. All right, we will spoilers later. Yes. But yeah, just like the fight was monitored is this creature is an alien-type Cryptid?

1:37:06 This is coming from Dover Massachusetts and for anybody from Massachusetts. This is the tale of the Dover Demon. Oh, no, never heard of this one. So let me give you a little description of this guy. So it's whole body characteristics, description of of whatever you want to get. There are they look like a grey alien? So yeah, as you know, small body big head, big eyes but it's not great. He is more of like a blood art. Like I seen pictures of him and like blood orange looking Okay, yeah, that's like his color because whole skin color, pick up my phone and begin searching for pictures of the Dover devil. Dover Demon cowl, sorry to say, Jersey Devil. Dover Demon.

1:38:04 There you go images. She has a watermelon shaped head and we're not sighs had like a big ol size. Bigger, water Metalhead, a very thin small body. Oh, I like it. So, what I saw was like, when I first saw the picture like, like Independence, Day aliens, their heads. However, big in the back, like those type of aliens, but their hand on like a small Gray's body like, that's why that's why I don't picture.

1:38:45 There he is. That's the Dover. Demon is kind of gross looking just a little bit. He has a large glowing eyes, and spindly long fingers. Yeah, I didn't I didn't miss that. It reminds me very much of Salad. Fingers. Yes. Which I found deeply unsettling as a child. Everybody did everybody, do you still watched it? And also the voice. Hmm. We got a big old big headed, baby alien.

1:39:25 Yep, basically that's kind of when he's was described as to get, he's a, he's a be Bellotti, got more head and he got body anyway. Um, so yeah, these fingers are just long and he just wrapped her on anything that he touched, like they're just spied her fingers, basically. And can I just say that? The people of the Cryptid sightings period, like of the. So this happened in 1977. So, like in the 70s, like whenever it is area, this era of like, citing Cryptids, like these people have a lot of imagination, either like their imagination.

1:40:05 Like you know, it's the area of the serial killer, the area of the Cryptid, like is it comes folks were born. That's see, that's what I was thinking to either their imaginations one and running wild. They were bored as fuck or they were Poking. Some of that. Very good stuff, like his stuff. Because these creatures they came up with I swear they're just like damn okay I see weird stuff in my dreams but this is the real life is what you're trying to say was that is real life. Oh goodness.

1:40:46 Yeah. So I'm going to I'm going to give you some of this item. So there were technically I think before sightings recitals Three. Sightings that. What? I have. Yes, three sightings of this Dover Demon and a 33. Sightings there. Technically was there. Any other ones after this? So okay, interesting. Interesting, yeah, okay. So sightings of this creature to span across two nights. And like I said, never again after that. So the first sighting was done by a Eighteen-year-old his name was William Bart Bartlett. And this is on April 21st 1997.

1:41:37 So it was a little past 10 p.m. so it was dark out. William in two of his friends, Mike mizuka. Yes, that's why I'm going with n Andy, Brody, they're driving down. It's a street is called Farm Street and this is when William he spots something it's like it's like working crawling, sort of alone like a bottom of this wall and starts climbing up the wall. Like it's the stone wall. That's just like on like on the corner of the street or something like that and So, at first, you know, he sees it like crawling across the ground.

1:42:23 Seems like it's probably a cat or dog. But you know, as he turns in his headlights, like light up this creature, he tricked, he realizes. It's not an animal or not a creature that he's seen before. So it had its two large eyes that were glowing a time. So I'm pretty sure they were just reflecting his his headlights. They were like a crown lidless eyes and just looking back at him and With that watermelon size head on top of that tiny body and he says it looks, it it has a peach color to the skin and it's fingers just curled around some rocks, human ask. Sort of.

1:43:18 Quite the right complexion, but yeah, yeah. he describes it as Having like you said a baby's Bobby baby's body? They go big-headed baby little body. No one else in the car is sees this thing and William drives away. He drops his friends off at home and then he hits home and he draws up a sketch or of what he's seen. Is that, that little hand drawn one. So there are two different ones, but, yeah, I'm pretty sure his is the. Let me see if I can Is it the one in black?

1:44:00 And I think it's as if I can pull open stupid. The one from Wikipedia is that this is that one? Hold on. Wikipedia When I search it was the first picture. It's goddamn it. This is no mouth. It has a tiny. I don't think he drew it with her mouth, but let me see. Nope, there's no math on this pick. Oh, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah. This is a picture. Yes, that picture. Okay. So the one that I originally showed the people, okay. Yes. That's the one. That's the one that bill Drew. Yes, have no mouth.

1:44:42 So I cannot scream. That's terrible. Okay, so there's another one. Let me see. Where's it at? Okay, so two hours later. Fifteen-year-old name is John Dame. Nice, same night, same night, two hours later, this lens to credibility. Yep. 15 year, old John Baxter, he leaves his girlfriend, Kathy her, he leaves her house and that's at the says it's the south end of Miller High Road. Okay then you know you start sweating.

1:45:23 Walking, he starts walking home to his house and half an hour later. He, he sees someone that's like walking towards him. And so this is like he's close to his house and he thinks it's like somebody he knows from a neighborhood. So he like calls out to them. And no answers back. So he was like, okay it is so you keep walking. Okay. Side note, it does he think the alien is his friend? He thinks that he's somebody in the neighborhood that he knows. So it was walking upright with it's big. Ol bobblehead. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Well because, oh, so far when I've looked at these pictures just now I only see it depicted on, like all fours, there's a there are is a picture.

1:46:12 I think it's one that John Mr. Baxter here has grown, I think he drew a picture of it too and that's the one that's like, it's standing up. But it's like leaning on a tree. I think that's him or somebody else. I did that. Okay. Okay. It's like darker. Hmm. Okay, I see that. Well, yeah, I see a John Baxter is drawing, ok. I shall also show the people. Yes, yes. But but so, you know, they get closer, you know, it's like who is like, you know, you're like like it, so you're not who I think you are, but who is that? Like who are you? Like and then that is a peep and little OPP.

1:46:57 So the the reminds me of like the beginning of Shaun of the Dead when they think that guy is just like singing with them. Oh yeah. Dead. This is like hey dude. Yeah that one. That's not reminds me of jobs like really thinking like that's somebody in this community grow. If you don't get your ass home, China. So there are clouds right at the sky is overcast and then suddenly like just one Ray of moonlight, just comes out and it hits this creature.

1:47:39 And he sees that it's not a person, and it's really, really close to him. And so, he freaks out, the creature freaks out, and the creature like, runs off to like wooded area. Thank goodness. And you can close and see the point. Only is mr. Baxter. He chases after this creature. He chases. If he chases after it and this is where he gets that picture from that. You drew. These is sexy ending next to a tree, like, hiding from him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is what happens. He sees it, like saying, like, it's holding up like a tree and it has his toes, like, wrapped around some rocks, on the ground, and stuff like that. And he's like the same day.

1:48:28 These two kids see the same thing, and they both draw similar pictures. Yeah. Okay this is okay. See, I'm less inclined to think that this is made up Hmm. Okay. Okay. Like that, like that because it's two independent experiences. This is true. So I have one more. Okay. So this is this. What happened the same day or after people learned about the first one? Because, see, that's how I feel like, with Bigfoot. Like some, a couple people were, like, yo, we saw this big hairy guy, and the other people was like, yeah, we saw it to us too, and then it became this thing, but I feel like if independently people saw something or experienced a paranormal thing, and it can be independently, Confirmed that has much more standing as being potentially true. This is true.

1:49:32 This is true. So this one is actually the next day. Okay, so I'm not sure if like news got around at this point. Yeah. See. That's the the worried there. Yeah. The people want to be a part of something. So They they want to be a part of the story but let's see. The third one. Okay, didn't deviate from the original story or not? No, I did not. Okay little. So the certain one this is me by a 15 year old girl. Her name is Abby. Listen Bart brabham. Okay grab him. I'm not good with names.

1:50:13 I'm sorry. Especially last name. Sorry anyway, she sold the Dover Demon and it was standing up right next to a tree. Three. And she said it was much like the sighting night before. It was just like, how was it John Baxter? Saw the demon just watching. Yeah, basically why they call it a demon. This is obviously the Dover alien as they just chilling living his life. I think Bill was the one that called it an alien. I'm not sure where he got the demon from. I mean, I'm pretty sure it was like the newspapers, a start. That's the only reason why, Yeah.

1:50:53 But yeah, she said she saw it in your like it was holding. It was up against a tree and it was near some water. Same as charm Baxter's is when he proof that everybody needs water to survive. Hmm. But yeah, those are like the three stories. I think John Baxter is the one that is, he's like, still shaking. He's like, I know I saw something that night cover of the book is awful. Okay, it's just like an alien. Looks like alien that book it looks worse. That's horrific. If it looked like that, I'd be terrified.

1:51:33 Also, apparently there's a book, a movie or know. It's a short film. Yeah, I want to watch it. Okay, what do you want to know? What? Some people think that this thing is? Oh sure. Okay. So, since a lot of people seen it on like all fours, they place out that it was maybe like a baby foul or baby moose, baby moose are very spindling but This dude over demon was spotted in April and apparently you from what I read baby moose or moose moose has moo C's. However moose mises they heard not like in the area of Massachusetts at this time of spring so it may may have been a lost baby moose who knows?

1:52:37 But I'm just saying it's it wasn't like seasonally. Ethical for that baby. Yeah, but their heads aren't that big, they're proportional only could have been the antlers. You call those? Yes, I like this one. Who knows? So there's another, those thing that I think it's a I think it's it's the right one is what it actually is. Okay, okay. So you know what a gibbon is? A monkey. Yeah, it's a cute little we're looking monkey. Which spindly fingers.

1:53:23 That, like, wrap around things and big eyes. Somebody had a pet, they weren't supposed to. Yeah. And it got loose in 1977. That's that's like the most the most plausible thing I could think of because is there a picture of a gibbon walking? All they're so cute, but they're furry, why wasn't this one Ferrari? It may have been for you just turkey, don't know. They walk like people. I'm showing a picture of that as well. It walks like a person that's kind of hunched over.

1:54:06 Oh no. I was like, I thought it was walking, it would be okay. And then here's a picture of It kind of leaned over. It does have crazy, long arms, that's a gibbon. Look at those cute little fuzzy boys. Yeah, so their proportions are so weird. Monkeys. Monkeys are just giving these particular Gibbs. Okay I'm gonna send you the picture.

1:54:46 God. Okay, so I guess a demonologist. I'm not even on my God I'm taking the demonologist. I think the team is right now. Cryptozoologist there you go. Her name is Loren Coleman and she's like she's local to the area and sheathing said you know, all three of the sightings before were credible. And like she believes them but like she believes that they saw something. Oh, okay. Something they, she doesn't believe it's that, it doesn't I don't know. She's like it could have been like I think there was like a YouTube video interview of her in it and she's like, it might have been like a given so. Okay.

1:55:38 And like the more I saw like the video and I've sold get in the walking I'm like yeah that thing is pretty weird and I could see like because you know how some animals. Do you see how it might? Like my glasses are reflecting the light from my My my my screen animals. They are their eyes reflect lights at night there, like some like cats dogs, they have eyes that shoot you. Yeah. So there are also some other strange incidents that happened in this area. Okay. Not, I guess not like Dover Demon. This, I mean, there's another one that happened and 1972. So this is like five years before at least three kids solve this, okay?

1:56:30 And this guy his name is Mark Senate and he said he swore he saw a creature in the woods and it had something that glowing red and glowing eyes. And like he turned his headlights on of course to see it in the the he saw the eyes and it was a small figure that was moving through the woods at the edge of the pond and He's like, maybe I saw a listing that these kids are seeing hmm. Who knows. Okay. Um but I read that there was like some type of like buried treasure or something there and Dover, I'm trying to load a geez.

1:57:15 Oh so no. Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. So this is from the 1600s, okay? And there were sightings of the devil on Horseback in this house. Yes. Yeah. Isn't that one of the like Heart Like harbingers of the Apocalypse? People be seeing that all the time. People do see the whole time? No 60 countries. I'm just saying people seem to see the devil constantly. Oh yeah. Always taken photo. I mean that was always route us hmm But I'm sure like I'm sure I read it somewhere that there's like some type of like buried treasure or some treasure that was in this area as well. That people were like looking for something. Something like That I don't know. Correct me if I'm wrong if you're from this area or if you do more research than I do.

1:58:12 Yeah. But yeah, that's that's kind of what I got for interesting. Yeah. Like yeah. I got a little alien Cryptid. For today, you know, Ted Bundy, in Aliens, they go help. You are happy with the first half of that. Part of mine will be back with the second half of it next week. I was not happy with that. Actually, I was really happy. Neither was I it took me a long time. I had to keep like, forcing myself to come back and work on it. Yeah, I remember how you told me to stop. That times that times.

1:58:52 Well, I already got the jump on the next one. So I've been working on that one already, so there you go. All right. Yeah. See next week is what I'm probably going to be more mad. That means I'm gonna be more mad. Got it. They hate you hate flows through me. Oh, that kind of mad, got it. Ted Bundy had called, that's gonna be a shirt. I'm gonna make it. I wish I had thought to make it ahead of time so I can have it on during this podcast, will get it made okay their faith. But anyway, thank you so much for listening watching only like 100 people on YouTube want to see it but that's okay. Watch this on YouTube.

1:59:44 Like this, your face. As you can see my reactions. You see my face like how my face was twitching today. It was really fun. Oh God, thank you so much for supporting us. Like I said, it's a shirt stuff. We have beanies cute, little mugs, there's my face. There's Brian's face. You all have a good night. Yes, good night.