The hunt for the Grim Sleeper and the Apology Line

0:30 Hey everyone in serial killer country. My name is Brittany Ransom. And my name is Brian Joyner, and this is When Killers Get Caught. A podcast devotes deep dives into the lives of killers we love to learn about. And each week Brian and I will discuss two true crime stories that resonated with us. And then I will lead you down the dark path of learning about who that killer was, how they grew up, how they killed, and most importantly, how they got caught. Then Brian will slow things down and give us a walk through the creepier side of life, Sometimes paranormal, sometimes cryptids, and sometimes just weird things that happen. Just a teeny tiny reminder that you can support us through our Patreon subscription and get a bonus podcast every week called Conspiracy Crypt, which is just Brian and I trying to make each other mad, finding the most obscure conspiracies that we can.

1:17 This coming episode for this week is me making Brian sit through 40 minutes of a discussion of every conspiracy theory around the Kardashian family. So fun. It actually ended up being a lot of fun, even though he was very worried it was going to be terrible. But regardless, you can also, if that's not up to your speed, go to When Killers Get Caught dot Shop and you can buy anything from our past lineup. And just a heads up, you're going to see this in the coming content in the next couple of weeks.

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2:42 Thank you for some of you who have been here since the first episode. You have no idea how when I am feeling real down, that makes me feel a lot better. Now this week in True Crime, I I am not a huge fan of. I didn't watch the Tinder swindler, let's put it that way, because I was like, yeah, this goes on. I mean, it's the same thing that happened with Bell Gunness, but this one popped on to my radar this year because this is a serial con man who they are referring to as the man of uncountable identities. Police have referred to him as a shapeshifter, and so his real name, we do have a real name for him is Joseph Corey. But like, even in the newspaper article, they're just showing piles of his driver's license.

3:36 Michael Arthur Weston. Aaron Schwartz, Jason Levy. Like, he just has a million identities. I don't even know how you make that happen. He has dozens of different bank accounts. Like, don't they check you through a system when you start a new bank account? I think so. But then, you know, using a different Social Security number and all this other stuff, maybe that's is it that. Well, that's that's stuff you can easily like a black market, deep web, stuff like that. You know what I mean? Either way. So Joseph Corey is currently in trouble because as he pretended to be a doctor and he scammed a bunch of different companies out of money.

4:20 He was saying like I have my private practice and I need to raise money for these expensive machines for my business and he has admitted to stealing $3.5 million. The federal government thinks it's a lot closer to 14,000,000 but apparently 3.5 is all we can prove right now. The other situation is that he completed the the hospital fraud or the medical fraud while he was already on the run from a previous fraud case where he had been given a nine year sentence.

5:02 So he's doing fraud on top of fraud? Yeah. So that one was a lot smaller. Actually, it was in 2019 was Before 2 that he got found guilty in 2019 for stealing $370,000 from an international hotel chain through somehow depositing fraudulent checks into an account he set up through them. Which is another thing I didn't know you could do. Apparently I'm just too poor to know about how like international banking and things work. I didn't know that you could deposit a check with a hotel and pull that money out like they were a. Bank I didn't. Know you could do that either. Listen, us broke folk, listen. Don't even know.

5:44 Don't even know. Regardless, so he got in trouble for that in 2019. And his response? To getting a nine year sentence was to flee and rip off at least 10 lenders they found so far and still three and a half million dollars. And so when he got caught for that, he then had all the money shifted into gold coins, had those gold coins sent to different post office boxes where he then picked them all up and then dipped out to Mexico. So that was just 20/20. He had listen, the rest of us were in quarantine. He was living the life.

6:31 And then it took the feds a year to find him in. They found him in Monterrey, Mexico in 2021. And so now he's back in the States. He's been extradited. He they even found an ID for the CIA. Like that's how many different identification cards he had. Honestly, it reminds me of Sam and Dean from. Superman, only they weren't actually making money off of theirs. But like you know they had like a million different like cop like. They really did. Didn't like. How did you get all this? We just glanced over the fraud in that show. My God, it's OK. That's so funny. We just loved them too much. This is true.

7:12 But yeah, Corey's trying to say it's not really medical fraud because he only made phone calls pretending to be a doctor. To lenders, but not to patients, I mean. There, that's that's just over. That's the Gray area there. Yeah. Well, he's worried that that nine year sentence is going to balloon up to like 50 because they're still, they're still working on it. They they've only put him in jail for the first crime, not for the second one. And he has been ordered to pay restitution to those millionaires who gave him money. So, so far that's 3.5 million. But I don't think this is done.

7:53 It might continue on, but that's all I got for you today. Look, someone like him. He has the skills to be an actual like CIA, FBI, whatever, Black Ops type of person. Frank, whatever his name is. Who from? Catch me if you can. Eventually, the feds offered him a job. Yeah, see? Like like. They they can use his skills. He has the skills. Obviously. He has to stay off the grid for at least a year. I listen, people. Take He just needs some training. When people pick a place to like, run away to, you got to choose a spot that doesn't like America. Y'all like.

8:34 And listen, I know it seems like everybody hates us, but we got lots of deals with lots of people. You got to find a country that hates America and will definitely not work with you when it's time for extradition. So it's not Canada and it's not Mexico because both of them have a lot. We have a lot of money deals with the north and the South of America. So you better go further South or something. I don't know. Find you a private island and just fall off the grid entirely. There you go. There you go. Well, Yep.

9:14 So, like everybody else, I hate the dentist. Is you true? Yeah, yeah, the dentist. I don't like people with my mouth. I don't like people looking at my teeth and not like I have bad teeth. It's just like, I don't, I don't know why you look at my mouth. It's just weird because people, mine just aren't that great. I mean, I'm not saying mine are perfect, but I go to the dentist. Every Was it six months? So you know, I take care of my teeth anyway. I don't. I just brush. It well, a man in Texas was very, very, very upset with his dentist office and it resulted in two people, two dentists, being shot and killed.

10:04 What? Yeah. So this happened on the 16th, and I guess this, this man, I don't have his name. Huh. It's weird. We know. No, it's just he's he was 40 years old. OK, He goes in, I'm guessing he goes in, he's going in for like a a routine checkup or something like that. And he got very upset with just the clinic. Wow. There's his name. Steven Alexander Smith. Did he say why he was upset? It does not say like it does because my mouth always comes out hurt whenever I go to the dentist.

10:50 No, and it's. Weird because I've been looking at all these different articles. I'm not sure, but it doesn't say why he got like upset, but he was mad at I guess at the end of his appointment and. It's probably over something. This is assurance probably you need to take her or something shit like that. But he, he started a confrontation with somebody at the at the lobby I guess, and he goes out to his car or his truck, my bad. He lets you his pickup truck and he grabs his handgun and he's like, I'm so mad, I'm just going to go up there and shoot up this whole dentistry, so. He does this, he goes back inside, he shoots two other dentists there and they die.

11:46 And he, he flees the area. Of course, he goes home. And you know, cops go to this house, of course, because there's not a record of the fact that he was just in the building 30 seconds ago. Right. So apparently he's he's at his house with his parents and so his parents walk out and he walks out and he is been charged with capital murder and aggravated assault with a deadly weapon and he's on. He's in custody. For a while. And he's on a bond with $3,000,000, so yeah, he deserves.

12:30 Yeah, I'm like it. Doesn't say what the hell. I mean, listen, I don't like the dentist either, but. Like, that's what I'm saying. Like, I don't like the dentist, but I don't think I'd be mad enough, even, like, even if they fucked up my teeth a little bit. Like look, I got a I got a cavity filled. The last time I was at the dentist, right, And they were drilling and drilling, I was like, are you guys, are you doing what you're supposed? To like are you? Sure, you're on the right tooth. Like, I was so nervous. I was like, oh, my fucking like, don't drill into my cheek because I can't feel shit in my mouth right now. So if you're drilling into my face, I can't tell. That's how nervous I got.

13:13 It was like take a chunk of cheek for the lulls. Yes, for the lulls of it, yes. God, poor dentist's office. They're just doing their job to torture everyone. It's for your own betterment, really. I do need to get like, I need to get teeth insurance, which is really annoying. That's not included in regular insurance, but. Yeah. No dental and vision. So yeah, also not included. No. Yeah, I pay uh this one company like 99 bucks for like 4 years worth of appointments.

13:54 For classes, yeah. I'm not saying I'm on air 'cause, you know, we don't do free sponsorship here, but if. You wanna know? I can let you know later. Like, I'm good. My, my job actually gives me the the vision in the nanto, which is so nice. Awesome. Yeah, well, in 2008, an article ran in LA Weekly from Christine Pelsack that said the Grim Sleeper returns he's murdering Angelenos as cops hunt his DNA. By the time this article ran, there were already 10 victims and the police were rushing to find and identify a man who started killing in 1984 and had just stopped for 16 years. Today, you're probably going to notice some similarities to the victimology from Anthony Sowell, which is a theme that's been coming up more and more often.

15:00 As I look through some of the requests from fans, this was another one of the people that was requested by our listeners. If you have not guessed it yet, I'm discussing Lonnie Franklin Junior today, also known as The Grim Sleeper. And truly, the only source that I could have for this podcast this week is Christine Pelsek. She wrote the article that named him. Like myself, she's been fascinated by Serial Killer since she was a child. And most importantly, she covered this story from the early 2000s into its conclusion into 2020. So her book, which is called Scroll Me Down, I believe it's called Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, The Lost Women of South Central.

15:48 It's called The Grim Sleeper, The Lost Women of South Central by Christine Pelsack. It's a great book. It goes a lot into the history of the people, which is what I'm going to focus on a lot today as well. There are a lot of articles. One of the things that I've always tried to do with this podcast is highlight the people who were killed and the effects of those crimes. And so that's what Christine did, and I really like that, and that's why she is my main source for today. Also, before we start, I do want to let everybody know. All of Lonnie Franklin Junior's victims, except for one, are black women. The other is a black man, a demographic of people in the US historically ignored and harmed by both those outside and within our community.

16:33 It's hard to discuss this without discussing it from a lens of being a black person, so you're going to probably hear that from us today, but we'll start where we always do. Lonnie Franklin Junior was born in Los Angeles, August 30th, 1952 to Ruby and Lonnie Senior. Shortly before Lonnie Junior was born, his parents were in a car accident and Ruby was thrown from the car and had to have major surgery. She survived and gave birth to Lonnie and then his sister Patricia, who was born in 1957. Lonnie also has an older brother, Otis, from a previous relationship. When Ruby was a hairdresser in Texas, he didn't really get to know his older brother. Otis stayed in Texas for most of the time and only visited the family in LA.

17:21 This is peculiar because Lonnie was born with the symptoms of head trauma that we have seen from other serial killers from a very young age. He was always sick. He had migraines that left him blinded and vomiting. These headaches existed all throughout his childhood and didn't stop until the 90s. That said, I'm sure you weren't surprised when I tell you that he did absolutely horribly in school. He was always sick, could never pay attention in class. His mother did his best to help him, but he was almost functionally illiterate, to the point where Ruby got him a professional tutor at 10 years old just to try and help him learn the basics. It didn't really help. He entered high school doing just as poorly as he'd done in elementary.

18:05 He was only really happy when he transferred to to Dominguez High School in Compton, and he was allowed to enroll in a work study program, which when he could make a little money working in the afternoons, what he did in work study was auto shop repair. And that was the thing that really connected for him. He couldn't really read, but he was really good at fixing a car, and his knowledge of cars was actually how he made friends and how he even met girls. He learned to drive at 7 years old from his dad, and by 14 his dad had given him a car. And you're giving me that look, Brian, But apparently he just took two understanding cars from a very young age. Look, I don't know if I told you the story. Like I when I first got into a, back when I was like, I don't know, five years old or something, I took my parents car.

18:55 Like they left me in the car for like a minute and I just. I just knew. I knew how to shift the gears. I knew how to get in. I drove the car like a couple of feet before they ran and caught me and stopped the story. This is great, OK? So you were in the same position as Lonnie, he at 7 years old. He knew how to move the pedals and now he probably couldn't see, so that was dangerous. But by 14, his dad had was letting him like, use the car and drive it around the neighborhood. And listen, I don't know if you remember high school Brian, but having a car means you are that bitch. You are the king if you have a car in high school.

19:39 Oh my God, you're. And he had one in freshman year come. On Oh yeah, Lucky. I think I got my first car when I was like 1617, so. So he learned how to use not just the fact that he had a car but other skills too, to get people to like him. He knew how to make the girls laugh. He had his heart set and a girl named Kate from elementary school. The two had met when they were eight years old and got together in 8th grade, lost their virginity together and stayed together for a year, which is pretty good for a young relationship. In 9th grade though, they broke up. He dated A fellow 9th grader named Shannon until she moved at the end of the year, and Lonnie then took the time to spread the rumor. That the reason why Shannon had to move was that he got her pregnant and that's why her parents left town. It was all nice until you said that guy. Yeah, he's with the next three years of his life. Having fun, fixing cars, flirt my girls, dating a couple of them, having a great time.

20:38 Being a young guy. From the outside, it seemed like he was a good kid. And that all kind of stopped in 1969. He got arrested twice for Grand Theft Auto and then once in 1970 for burglary. He got expelled from Dominguez two weeks before graduation for fighting and actually didn't finish school. He worked at a grocery store packing things in boxes for a couple months, and his dad was like, hey you, you should do something, maybe join the military. So in July 26th, 1971, he joined the US Army and he went to basic training at Fort Ford in Monterey Bay, California. His first appointment was January 1972 at the 71st Air Defense Artillery at the Kelly Barracks in Stuttgart, Germany.

21:25 Like many young soldiers who we have learned about over the last year and change, what what do the young soldiers like to do? Brian I. Don't know fresh, remember. What do you like to do, Brittany? I like to be prostitutes while they're in other countries. Oh. God and. All of them. It's in the past. It was real prolific. I wouldn't say modern day. That's the thing to do now. People got tender and grinder and can just meet people and have a good time for free. But in old days, people would, you know, get that night off, head out to the city, pick up, you know, listen, it was easier to pick up a hottie for like $100 than to talk to somebody.

22:19 And it might not work. Yeah, okay okay. But regardless, Lonnie got into prostitution. He did indeed pick up an STD like some of our other friends in the past and the military is also where things escalated in regards to diversity. That escalated happened on April 17th, 1974. It was 12:30 AM when he and two other soldiers attacked a 17 year old girl known only in court records as Ingrid W Ingrid had just left her boyfriend's house and was waiting to catch a train at the Zuffin Hossen train station at the city to the city of Asburg.

23:05 When they first approached Ingrid, she wasn't really scared. She was like, oh, they need directions. So she gave them directions. But she said one man grabbed her by the shoulders, dragged her into the back seat of the car. That man put a butcher knife to her throat and told the girl I'll kill you. The three soldiers drove her to an empty field where two of them took turns raping her at knifepoint. It took pictures of her as well. This attack went on for hours until dawn. In between the attacks, she tried to like, talk to the driver and humanize herself, you know, get him to help stop it. She did convince the guy to take her phone number, Like she talked him into thinking like that she liked him and she gave him the number and they did drop her off at home. Anger went home, showered, fell asleep for most of the day and they took a train to the police station and love Wicksburg to report them.

24:03 The police assumed that she was a prostitute, but Ingrid demanded to have her report taken. She went home, I'm sure further traumatized by the police who didn't want to do their job. But then the police got another report from an 18 year old girl who reported that three African American men had attempted to kidnap her an hour before Ingrid's attack. Wow. Wow. Other situation. The other girl had been grabbed while she was buying cigarettes out of a machine because that's how they used to sell them. But a local resident had actually seen the attack, seen the grab, and that Lady started screaming and when they realized that they had been seen, they kind of shoved her out of the car. It was a Fiat and drove off.

24:48 So now they had the 18 year old girl, the Witness and Ingrid. And so they actually called Ingrid back and we're like, can you tell us about those three guys again? Oh, now you want to hear? OK, and so then the Germany gave the description to the US Army. Crazy enough. The driver of the car calls Ingrid, and so she, the police and Ingrid set up a staying operation. She's like, I'll go on a date with you. Meet me at the train station where y'all were. Like where you saw me last night. They had it set up so that once Ingrid saw him and he got close enough to her, she would drop a handkerchief on the ground and then the police would grab him. The driver actually had a large knife hidden on him, and it would seem that he had plans to continue what his friends had started the night before.

25:44 That driver was Lonnie Franklin Junior. He was taken into custody on May 5th, 1974, charged with rape and kidnapping of Ingrid W and the attempted kidnapping of the 18 year old who escaped. Franklin said he hadn't done anything to Ingrid and he blames it on the other two guys. He said he'd just been driving his friends around who were drunk, that they tried to pick up a drunk girl on the street and help her out. When she screamed, they let her go and then they said one hour later Ingrid was hitchhiking and that they helped her out. He said that Ingrid offered herself to them for the ride home, but that he couldn't get an erection and instead the other two guys had consensual sex with her. The other two rapists told an entirely different story, which did not help anyone with their credibility. Of course, of course.

26:31 The only truth of that thing from Lonnie was that he did have trouble with his erection. That's the only reason why he didn't rape her. He couldn't do it. Franklin's mom flew to Germany to be there for his trial, and they were that she was there for three months. Lonnie was convicted. So before actually say the conviction, there was a big hubbub with Germany and the US Army over this because the army has a tendency to go kind of lenient when stuff like this happens abroad, You know, they're like, oh, we'll handle this. We'll do it in house. And Germany was like, Nah, we don't trust you to give these three the right punishment and.

27:13 So Germany actually said that they were not going to release these three men back to the US Army, and he was convicted on December 20th, 1974 and sentenced to three years and four months in German prison. His friends were given about 4 1/2 years. Unfortunately, he got released from prison early in 1975. But before they actually sent him back to the US so that he could go through trial in the US, they decided to do a mental evaluation of him. He talked to them about his headaches and sickness. He had a lot of anxiety and depression, how he had gotten gonorrhea from a German prostitute. the US therapist that he talked to on base in Germany was just like He has no illness horrible enough to stop him from attending his court martial in the States. Send him home.

28:11 So during the court martial he fought hard as a hell to prove that he didn't rape anybody and that that should matter to the court. And he was successful in doing that because they gave him a general discharge on May 5th, 1976. And the difference between a dishonorable discharge and a general discharge is that if you are dishonorably discharged, that only are you not allowed to be in the military ever again. But you also lose all military benefits. They will not help you Afterward get a job, you do not have their health insurance. Afterward you get nothing. You're done.

28:51 So that's what he was fighting for. He was fighting to keep the benefits of being a having been in the military. General Discharge just meant you are never allowed to be in the military ever again. Don't talk to us so. It's me. Got it. Yeah, leave us alone. That's the long and short of it. I'm sure there's actually some more nuance I don't understand because I know nothing about the military, but that's what I could at least glean from that. The other two culprits did receive dishonorable discharges because they had actually sexually assaulted the young woman. After the court martial, Lonnie moved back home to LA and he met his wife, Sylvia Lino, through his job at the LA Trade Technical College in 1977.

29:35 Sylvia was 21 and Lonnie was 25. The relationship progressed rather quickly. They got married in 1978. They had their first child, Crystal, in December of 1978 and then son Christopher in August of 1981. During this time period, Lonnie had a lot of different jobs. He ran a gas station. He was a security guard, a truck driver. He even walked worked for the Office of Veteran Affairs as a patient scheduler trying to help other people in the military. He ended up working maintenance for a party company for a bit, but the life of working odd jobs meant that there was never any sability, and now he had a family to pay for and he needed those benefits. So he decided that the most logical and sensible choice was to join the LAPD. But he didn't want to be a cop.

30:18 He just wanted the benefits of working for the cops. And so in 1981, he was hired as a garage attendant in the Central Division office. Within months, they gave him a raise to become a mechanical helper and work on the police vehicles. And it seemed like he was going to get the job that he had been working towards in, like in high school. But he quits in 1982 and he takes a job. Yeah, it makes no sense until you realize that he was trying to set up something, a con. So 1982, he quits the job for the LAPD and takes a job with the LA Sanitation Department as a garbage man. It did pay more and it offered a lot of overtime.

31:02 But the weird thing is, is this is also when he starts filing injury claims, A lot of them and they all centered around his right arm and eventually he would quit citing an issue with his rotator cuff. And ultimately by the 90s he had filed so many reports that he had created enough claims and and doctors reports and things to say that he could get disability benefits. Oh, wow. Yep. So he laid the groundwork by constantly reporting whenever anything happened. And after he got those disability benefits that gave him a lot of time and the money to get in trouble because Sylvia had enough money to to run the household and take care of the kids. He he made his money running an illegal car repair service and then thus started the saga of Lonnie Franklin Junior cruising for prostitutes almost every single night in South Central LA.

32:13 Like, I I don't have an issue with people engaging with sex workers by any means. I know lots of people who do that job, so I think it's totally valid. But I think that there's something weird when every single night that's what you're doing. And when his wife was working, he went out and did it, and when she wasn't working, he would lie and tell her that he had somewhere else to go. He was going to go visit his friends. It was always him going out looking for prostitutes. Every night. Yeah. I think that that's weird. It's it's definitely a form of a sex addiction, getting your serotonin through getting off. Also, he had to have been spending an absolute astronomical amount of money.

32:55 Even with the cheapest of of people who are struggling on the street, you're that's still a couple $100 a week Sir. And I I mean he was also giving people drugs in exchange for favors so that's still money he had to pay. I mean like I wonder how much his wife didn't realize she was supplementing a very serious habit. It's not her fault. But I I would be so offended decades later to find out that all the money that I gave you to help you with your business, you were spending on harming women on the street. Cuz boy. Coincidentally, around the same time that those disability claims the first murder happened, 1985, Deborah Ronette Jackson was 29 years old. She was a really happy lady and she was super like, bright and bubbly.

33:48 She did have a bit of a run in with drugs. She had gone to rehab in South Central and was trying to rebuild her life. She got into the party scene when she was younger, and like so many others, she came out of that with a drug dependency that had taken her children from her and left her with virtually nothing. After rehab, she got a job as a cocktail waitress and was making decent money. Unfortunately, Deborah's roommate, Beatrice Mason, was missing a paycheck and she was certain that Deborah had stolen it to buy coke. The two fought the entire weekend of August 2nd to the 4th in 1985 over the missing money. And when there was no solution, Beatrice just told Deborah she had to leave. But they were friends, so she dropped her off at another person's house on August 5th. That was Monday morning.

34:34 As the day progressed, Beatrice still was mad. She stayed mad. And instead of picking up Deborah from the friend's house that night, when Deborah called her at around 7:00 PM, Beatrice was just like, let's just separate. We can't live together. She's like, I'll bring your stuff. I'll, she's like, I'll bag up all your stuff. I'll leave it with the neighbor. The first person to notice that Deborah was missing was her daughter Anyada. And that was because after Deborah went to rehab, she called her children every single day. By Friday, August 9th, 1985, the kids were in a real, like, upset the children's foster mother. The thing was, the foster mom was totally OK with Deborah visiting.

35:22 It was actually a very, like, positive situation. They were aware that Deborah was trying to get her life on track, but there was a lot of stuff she had to do to fulfill those requirements and get the kids back full time. But she did get to visit them at the foster mom's house. But by the 9th, though, Foster mom was worried. Beatrice hadn't heard anything either. Everything just seemed off. Deborah's body was found on August 10th, lying against a Redwood fence, poorly hidden beneath an old carpet at Martin Luther King Blvd. And San Pedro St. in South Central. She was still wearing a purple sweater and blue jeans, but the shirt had been pulled up over her breasts and her pants were, like, poorly put on. She didn't have any underwear on at all, which we'll find out was part of her killer signature.

36:10 However, she was covered in magnets, maggots signifying to the police that she had been there for a couple days at least. Right. Yeah. Now, unfortunately for Deborah, there was another killer in LA in 1985, and he wasn't targeting poor women. He was targeting the middle and upper class, had already killed 12 people, raped 15 women and children and they were calling him the Night Stalker. Why? This is like the last story, like two people attacking at the same time. There's like 4 serial killers in South Central over the course of the time where Lonnie Franklin Jr. is active. It is wild. Like here's the thing, California has the most serial killers by number and they have a huge population. But America's had about 3600 serial killers total in our entire history. 1600 of them have come from California. Wow, the Seventies 80s and 90s were insane. Wow, I know, I know.

37:15 The 70s. Were badly damned. He did not stop. But yes, so unfortunately for Deborah, the low income former drug addict from South South Central was lost in the flurry of news reports showing the composite sketch and psychological profile of the Night Stalker. I imagine Deborah's children fed a lot, like a lot of families who lost loved ones around the same time that Gabby Petito disappeared last year. Don't the people we love matter too? It's kind of sad to realize that absolutely nothing has changed. The LAP 77th Division, which is the area that covers this area of South Central, was understaffed, overworked, and they averaged about 130 murders a year for a staff of only 8 homicide detectives. Dyer was the 58th unidentified woman to be found in 1985. She'd been shot three times in the chest with a 25 caliber pistol.

38:07 They found alcohol and traces of cocaine in her system. Because of the decomp, they couldn't tell if she had been sexually assaulted. But spoilers. He sexually assaulted all of his victims. They learned from friends and fellow employees that Deborah have found an apartment and she had actually scheduled to go visit it. The last time she was seen alive was at work on August 7th when she picked up her paycheck. So the assumption there is that somewhere between August 7th and 9th was when she was killed. That paycheck was not found on her. She may have actually put down the down payment on that new place, we're not sure.

38:50 Unfortunately for Beatrice, the police fixated on the fight the two of them had and her before disappearance. They looked at her as a suspect. At first, Beatrice failed the polygraph because she was so angry with the police and. Like, why? How, Jerry, you blame me? Like, really? I mean, we had a fight. There's not enough to kill her over, right? I told her to leave. I didn't say I was good. Shoot her in the chest. Regardless, though, Beatrice provided her shoes and a DNA sample and also her fingerprints to prove that she had no connection. There wasn't much they had to go on. The case went cold, her family buried her and the most police could do was monitor crimes for a 25 caliber pistol and hope it will lead to finding the killer. That's.

39:36 Just wait. Now in the midst of all these murders, we also have another serial killer that ultimately they called the South Side Slayer. Now the South Side Slayer stabbed and strangled his victims. But that is not one person. Two separate people have been arrested for those crimes, and there may have been other serial killers who were working at the same time who they put under the umbrella of the South Side Slayer. Oh my God, this is terrible. Yeah. Well, it's terrible for the families who are hoping to get some kind of help when this.

40:19 I mean, they think there were like 6 serial killers working in LA at the same time, But regardless, in the middle of them researching and trying to find the South side player, they get a hit on a crime similar to Deborah's. Her name was Henrietta, right? People called her Cody. When the 34 year old went missing, she had also been struggling with drugs. Her stepfather had kicked her out the week prior, August 12th, 1986. She stayed with friends of her sister or friends and her sister or a random motel. Her younger sister would wait until their stepdad went to sleep and then sneak her in at night and then sneak her out in the morning.

41:03 Henrietta had been a really wonderful mom to five kids, and she was a hard worker. Until there was a fire that took out her home and all of her belongings in the early 80s. Depression hit her really hard and she turned her drugs to cope. The 80s, of course, were the era of crack cocaine in the black community, and it very quickly robbed her of her entire life. Stop it, Siri, no one told you. Soon as I saw the little box pop up, I knew what it was doing. No Siri. Her family didn't want to let her stay there because if you have any experience with people who are in the midst of a direct dependency, they steal.

41:48 And like so many people who watch someone fade with an addiction, it's very much hopelessness as you watch the person you love become impossible to reach. Henrietta's body was found just before noon on August 12th of 1986. Her body was hidden under an old mattress and blanket on West Vernon Ave. where a lot of homeless people stayed. Just like Deborah, she'd been shot in the chest at close range with a 25 caliber pistol. So close that there was gunshot residue within the wounds. Just like Deborah, they found cocaine in her system, but they also found morphine and codeine as well. If people don't know, that's a very typical drink that people make. If you listen to rap music from the old days, they do call it the lean.

42:37 Lean syrup. It's a mixture of codeine and morphine and a drink. I do remember that song sipping that syrup. Yep. As a child, I didn't know what that meant. Love. They're drinking Maple syrup. I was like, why are they drinking the syrup? I don't understand. Those Maple syrup. Unlike Deborah, though, it appears if and Henrietta had an opportunity to fight back. Her attacker beat the crap out of her. There was blood all over her mouth, nose, cheeks. There was even blood in her ear. Also, the killer had shoved a part of a man's long sleeve shirt in her throat, like in her mouth to try and gag her.

43:21 Her white polo shirt was pulled up above her chest, Her shorts were inject. Her shoes, underwear and her identification were all gone. At first, it didn't seem like a lot was going to happen. But on August 29th, the Lapd's Scientific Investigation Division connected the bullets from Henrietta's chest to the same that killed Deborah. This wasn't a speculation anymore, and as far as people don't know, the the way that they connect bullets is that the barrel of every gun is distinctive and different, and so as the bullet leaves its case and comes. Out of the gun, there are striations that like cuts that go into the bullet that are unique to the barrel of the gun, and they compare the bullets from each victim and if they have identical striations, that's how they know that these bullets were all fired from the same gun.

44:21 This would be the only thing that links these killings together. For a moment, the police think they have The killer turns out to be a bad lead from an informant. The guy's name was Dennis Pinkney, and he was a bad guy. He was overheard by the informant bragging about shooting a woman who didn't give him a blowjob. And then apparently he attacked her. He shot her and shoved her panties in her mouth like he said that in public. And so the informant was like, that's your guy. I was at the hotel and I heard him talking about it. So the LA County District Attorney charges Pinckney with the murder of Henrietta, but while he's in LA County Jail, another woman gets killed. Pinckney was a scumbag who did kill a woman, but he wasn't the one they were looking for.

45:11 And now we have a third murder to look into. This one was different though. A 911 dispatch got a call about a man dropping a woman's body on January 10th, 1987, just after midnight, the caller said. It was on 1346 E 56th St. in an alley. The guy was in a blue and white Dodge van. He even had the license plate number. The caller told them that the man had dropped a woman's body out of his vehicle, throwing a gas tank on top of her, and when 911 asked who he was, the guy laughed and said I'm staying anonymous, I know too many people and he hung up. Yes, as you should.

45:55 When the police arrive about 20 minutes later, they find Barbara Ware, half covered in black plastic bags and cardboard boxes. The gas tank was used to kind of weigh down all the crap covering her. She's wearing Gray jeans and a long sleeve white cardigan with a black halter top underneath, just like Henrietta and Barbara. Blood on her face nose. Her right eye was swollen shut. She still had hair curlers in her hair. Well, he looks for Barbara's identity. The police tried to track down the van through the license plate number. It belonged to a church, and it was used to pick up and take home patrons. That night, the night that Barbara was found, the church was actually having a lockin. And so the driver was there with all the people in the church. By the following morning.

46:39 They knew her name, Barbara Bethuneware. She had just turned 23 years old. Barbara had a hard life. Her mom died when she was 12. She'd never handled it well. And when she and her brother moved in with their very strict Catholic dad. Things didn't go well either. Billy Senior tried to control Barbara. She rebelled, got into fights, got expelled. Honestly, she really needed therapy, but it was the 70s. And who was doing that? Her dad was known to try and beat her with a belt to subdue her, but that doesn't work. They ended up sending her to her grandparents in Texas, but that's where she got pregnant at 16. And then she decided she was moving back to LA. In 1981, after her daughter was born, she started using. Got arrested for theft and solicitation in 82 when she was just 18 years old.

47:27 By 1985, Barbara actually took a handful of pills, turned on the gas stove in her house, and ended up hospitalized in the hospital. Barbara realized that if she didn't work harder on quitting drugs, she was going to lose her daughter. And so she actually really worked hard for the next six months. But by 1986, she was using again. And then in 1987, she was gone. Barbara's stepfather, who might have not been the best parent, but he absolutely cared about the fact that she was gone. He took to the streets. He started talking to people, drug dealers, drug doers, and talking to people and trying to figure out like, was this a bad drug deal? Does she owe somebody money like this? Wouldn't be the first time that that happened. He ended up paying off people to get people to talk to him, but he did learn that Barbara wasn't clean, but she wasn't out of control like she was before.

48:27 On the day of Barbara's funeral, the LAPD Science Investigation Division did determine that she was shot with the same gun that killed Henrietta and Deborah. Now I know before that I said that Dennis Pinckney could not have killed Barbara because he was in prison, but that did not stop the LAPD from trying to take him to court for Henrietta Wright. Are you serious? He absolutely did. They had that preliminary hearing March 29th, 1987, and just after the preliminary hearing, another body was found. So this was me too, right? I did this one too. Right, right. I'm sure Dennis is like wallowing out at this point. On April 16th, 1987, two employees at the Chase Appliances on Southwestern Ave.

49:11 cut across the parking lot behind their job and saw a white T-shirt watered up on the ground about 15 feet from a dumpster. One of the men picked up the shirt, he noticed it had blood on it, immediately dropped it, and then kind of leaned the look in the dumpster and saw Bernita sparks. She had been tossed head first in the dumpster and her blue Levi's with a black button up shirt. There was blood in her face, nose and mouth. Her killer had very hastily redressed her without her underwear, and of course there was gunshot residue all over that shirt. Bernita had last been seen at 10:30 the night before. She said goodnight to her mother and she told her she told her mom, Eva and Aunt Eunice that she was going to the liquor store.

49:51 When Eunice woke up that morning on the 16th, the door was still unlocked. The family didn't know who would want to harm Bernita. And she was murdered just days before she was set to start working at the 92nd Street Elementary School as a lunch monitor. She was 26, and she didn't really match the other victims. In term of addiction, she might have done a little bit here and there, but she wasn't an addict. She had been arrested twice in 1983, once for evidence destruction and the other for possession of a controlled substance. But that was just, you know, having a little bit of drugs on. Yet the police actually went door to door knocking to see if anyone had seen Marnita. A woman named Rosa Harris, who lived in an apartment complex that faced the alley where they found her, told the police that she heard someone screaming in that morning. And she said she saw a man with a Jerry curl, a yellow shirt and light pants leaving the alley.

50:55 The police were definitely sure they were dealing with the same guy, but it was almost entirely too much for them to handle because they were dealing with the South Side Slayer and these these crimes are all coming in at the same time and the state is threatening to, so this isn't necessarily the right thing. But they have been given money for a South Side Slayer task force and so some of that money was being used. Around the rest of the precinct because they were so underfunded and so they're worried that they're going to lose that funding because they already don't have enough funding. Right. Well, yeah. Yeah, that's that's a shitty area to be in.

51:37 Right. Yeah, yeah. Now, July 6th, 1987, the police informant lets them know that she lied about Pinckney. Again, he did absolutely shoot another person, but she actually told the police that she thinks it was her boyfriend, Jimmy Lewis who had killed Henrietta because and she said she lied because Jimmy said he was going to kill her and her children, so she just told them somebody else's name. Now Lewis did on a 25, but it had been confiscated during a previous arrest by the Highway Patrol. So the LAPD requested that gun. They tested it on July 14th. It didn't match, of course.

52:21 July 13th, Ping Me's case finally gets dismissed against him. Now we're back to the drawing board. We got no suspects and we got nothing until four months pass. Mary Lowe is our next victim and she was 26 years old on October 29th, 1987. She had been easily using for the last decade. She had a really strange, tumultuous relationship with a man named Gino King. For the majority of that time, the two were on again, off again, with Mary kind of showing up every couple weeks, and she'd stay with him for a few nights or weeks to be off again. Gino believed that she was turning tricks, but he never really questioned it.

53:04 She did a stint in Civil Brand Institute, a women's prison in LA. And sometime between her time and Sybil in 1987, she got into crack. And that was really the end of this young woman who just wanted to have fun. On October 29th, Gino and Mary had gotten into a fight, and so she asked to go to her mom's house. Gino took her to her mom's house. Her name was Betty. And everyone there was like, listen, you don't look good. You should stay off the streets. Go stay at Gino's house. Like he wants to take care of you. Mary wasn't having that, and she actually said to her parents, I'm going to live and die on these streets.

53:45 And two days later they found her. We do know that she was out on Halloween celebrating a friend's birthday at the Love Trap Bar on Western Ave. She called Gino at about 11:45 PM to pick her up, but Gino was heading to Austin, TX to see his father, who was dying in the hospital, and so a booty call really wasn't on his mind that night. The birthday girl, Diane Robinson, saw Mary at 1:15 talking to two black men from the club. At 10:00 AM on November 1st, a father and son were walking through an alley and they called it in. Just like the other victims. Her clothes were pulled up and down. She'd been shot at close range of the 25, had cocaine and alcohol in her system. The police followed a bunch of false leads and even investigated the owner of the bar. Every person they looked into either had a rock solid alibi or didn't have the weapon they were looking for. The LAPD ends up cutting the funding to the South Side Slayer case to make space for Pope John Paul the Second visiting Los Angeles.

54:49 You know how I feel about stuff like that. I just think, wow, you don't know how many active serial killers you have in this city right now, but we're going to cut the funding to find them. It's for the Pope to visit and. Send all the cops to protect the Pope. I mean. Listen the the cops at that precinct of their boss, and it wasn't that great because Margaret Prescott and the Black Coalition fighting black serial murders was not happy with it and was quoted as saying is this was another community in which these murders had happened. You wouldn't have the lackadaisical attitude that you see on the part of the police. We are not convinced they've covered everything. You ain't wrong.

55:35 You ain't wrong. Right. I was like, go ahead, Margaret, you ain't wrong. Oh God. On top of the South Central Slayer, there's an unparalleled gang violence happening in the area too. I don't know if you know this, listeners, but in the 1980s, this was the time of the LA gang wars, with which amounted to about 70,000 gang members as well as young kids who wanted to be in the gangs. They called them wannabes. All fighting simultaneously in LA. Of those people, about 25,000 of them were young black men split between the Crips and the Bloods. The police were absolutely overwhelmed by fights, robbery, shootings, random murders, Dr. Bys, you have that to contend with.

56:18 On top of the serial murders, which we've now been undefunded, and this one's still going on. It hasn't stopped yet, thank God. So wait. So wait, wait, wait. So wait. Hold on. So the Pope he visits for like, what, a day or so? Right. Like I think when he was in Philly, he was here for a week, okay. So after he leaves, does the funding go back to? Them or they don't get the funding. Of course not. They don't get the funding back. Okay Okay. They use the money that they probably would have given them for the rest of the year. To fund all of the people who probably had to the overtime to stay and keep watch over him and control the mass amount of people who wanted to see him while he's in his little Pope bubble.

57:04 Yeah, yeah, that's not cool, OK? I was just, I was just like they get the funding back, right? No. OK. No, it doesn't happen, OK. Never goes that way. In the middle of that are these sporadic yet very violent murders, all related to a 25 caliber pistol. Unfortunately for Lucretia Jefferson, this was a huge murder that took place the same night. There was another huge murder that took place the same night that she was kidnapped and killed on January 30th, 1988. In fact, the gang crime that happened that night was so big that there was virtually no mention of Lucretia in the media at all. What we do know about her and the murder that happened to her is partially because of Christine Pelsack.

57:50 Who did The Who, who, who sought out all of these family members to learn about these people because there there's virtually no mention of Lacretia. But what we do know about her is through her friends and family who spoke to Christine, was that Lacretia was known for being in the drugs. They called her LA Cretia because she was a really big partier and she would spend all her weekends at the Players Choice or the Total Experience clubs. Her family wanted more and better for her, and she would always tell her mom. Wanda, you can't tell me what to do. Oh my God. From a very young age, she was super outgoing. She loves singing, dancing, roller skating.

58:30 She had dreams. We all do. She spent most of her life with her dad, James, in Kansas and moved back to LA. And when she moved back to LA in the 80s, she got caught in the crack of epidemic. The night before she died, she stopped by her mom's house with a strange man. And then went to her friend's house on Florence Blvd. And then stopped by another friend's house, Jody, at 9:30 PM. Now Jody's apartment building was a popular spot for people to score. Apparently a lot of drug dealers live there. Krisha left at 11:30 PM and an hour later Jody heard her outside yelling at some guy. She was sitting in the passenger seat of a white 4 door Mercedes that had racing stripes on the side and there was a black man in the driver's seat. So Jody was like, come back inside and Lucretia actually listened.

59:25 Yay. She came back inside very obviously high. She told her friend. She told Jody that the guy had threatened her with a knife and that's why she was yelling at him. The two of them just kind of hung out, fell asleep on the couch, just talking and you know, to the to the morning and when Jody's daughter's alarm woke them both up. Lacretia left her friend's house and they found her in alley four year 4 hours later just 4 miles away from Jody's house. The two people who discovered the body called 911. She was wearing a maroon dress. Her underwear was gone. There was no physical trauma here.

1:00:06 He might have ambushed her. However, her I D was gone. There was a crack pipe in the coat of her pocket, like the pocket coat. I wrote. I wrote the code of her pocket and my notes. That, that is. In her coat pocket. The police assumed that she had Od'd and somebody had just dumped her. And so they kind of sent her to the LA County Medical Examiner's Office to just have them do a once over, you know, bag and tag. But the problem was, Dr. Susan Selzer pulled her clothes off and realized that there were 225 caliber slugs in her chest. And called the police back. She started staying out late, not coming home. Like, I think you need to see that just like everybody else, she had been drinking and doing cocaine when she died. So our next victim was Alicia Alexander, also referred to as Monique.

1:01:03 Monique's decline wasn't as rabid as the other women we've discussed so far. In 12th grade she became really unhappy and dropped out of. Sometimes her parents said she'd just get up and leave in the middle of the night. On July 5th, 1988, she got arrested for possession of a controlled substance, and she started eating a man about 10 years older than her the night she went missing. Her parents assumed this was just Monique being Monique, but she usually wasn't gone for more than a day or two. Her boyfriend, Louis hadn't seen her since Friday, September 2nd. And her mother, Mary, was worried. And then Lewis showed up at the house to pick her up for a date.

1:01:45 And then everyone kind of realized nobody knew where she was. Lewis actually asked the question that nobody was ready to hear. But perhaps because he was a little bit older and he saw Manique for who she really was, he was just like, have you checked the Morgues? That's a bad sign already. I mean, I think the reality was that her boyfriend knew that she was doing drugs and her parents, Our parents always have the most idealistic vision of us. LAPD was on the scene. Well, a lot of them do. Not everybody, but September 11th 1988 there were four boys between the ages of seven and 13 who are walking a dog through an alley and saw the very rotten corpse that ended up being. And pretty quickly.

1:02:37 And they were able to tell that she'd been dead for several days. She was nude. Her shirt was twisted around her neck, her ID was gone, and there were small caliber bullet holes in under her left breast. She was so decomposed that she was actually labeled Jane Doe 59 until 1 lone fingerprint was connected to her arrest near her 18th birthday. She tested positive for cocaine and alcohol. It was just the same as every other murder and they were no closer to solving it. The police realized that the position of the bullets the killer showed that the killer was always to the left of the victims and he didn't stray out of a very small kill zone. We're talking about like one or two mile radius.

1:03:20 Monique's death gave them another eyewitness who had seen Monique get into a Ford Pinto or Chevrolet Vega that had a loud muffler and tinted windows at about 11:00 PM on September 6th, the corner of 59th and Normandy Ave. They look for the car, but nothing came from that. Now let's phase over to Lonnie and what he's been doing other than what we know is killing these poor women. Lonnie is building the perfect persona. He is a loving, doting father who always helps his neighbors. He's giving to the needy, fixing the elderly people's cars in the neighborhood whenever they need it.

1:04:02 Never seen smoking any kind of drugs. Of course not. No, not in public. He even was telling people that he was a teetotaler and we hadn't heard that term in a while, right? No. Not that's that's like the old, like early 1900s phrases. But essentially that's the equivalent of what we might call straight edge today. He had presented himself as his loving husband and no one would ever even doubt that he took care of his wife Sylvia. He's a pillar of the community. Well, the truth was, Lonnie had developed a serious taste for prostitutes. He had at least four separate serious girlfriends during the years He was committing all these murders now because they weren't enough to really pull his appetite.

1:04:49 He saw prostitutes often, and apparently bragged about it to most of his friends. He also kept photos of these conquests, and he referred to them by their breast size and shape, like droopy titties, or by a body part in general, like big legs. He kept all these photos in which he had removed the not. Either he hadn't photographed the woman's head or cut them off in a camper on their property or in his garage. He also kept a bag of bras and underwear that he told his friends that he bought for his girlfriends, but I think those were trophies of his. Victim. Yeah, sounds like.

1:05:30 It he even referred to the women he was sleeping with as his trophies and he would stop by his friends homes with them, like in the car with him. He was bold. And he gained more confidence. He started telling women he was a pornographer. He convinced them to pose for his collection. He was also known for showing off a 25 caliber pistol that he kept in his front pocket at all times. No. No. I'm sorry. No, no. In the news now did they say about the gun in the news? No, interestingly enough, they were worried because if you remember when we watched the Night Stalker case, when they gave too many details that one mayor gave the details of his shoes, he wore different shoes from that point. So the police were actually the police who were working this case were worried that if they released too many details about him, he would change up his MO.

1:06:33 This caused a lot of just friction between the families of the victims and the homicide detectives, and the chief of LAPD actually were at odds about this. They were like, people need to know about this. We need to release details. That's what the chief wanted. But the homicide detectives were like, no, he's gonna change it up and then we're gonna lose him entirely. Yeah, sorry. All over again. Yeah, yeah, I get that. OK. Just just wondering. I do remember. I really understand. Yeah, I remember the Night Stalker. And I'm like, yeah, everyone the mayor. They're fucking. It's such a it's such a 5050 like you don't know because that bear, everyone was really mad at her because they were like we had his feet print in these specific, very distinctive shoes. At like 14 locations.

1:07:34 Thanks a lot. And you mentioned those very specific shoes of which there were only like 100 sold in Los Angeles and now he's wearing new. Piece of shit. Yeah, because, I mean, if you remember, the Night Stalker was using multiple methods to kill people. He really didn't have a signature, proper method. Yeah, He didn't have a signature in terms of methodology. So the only thing they had in the beginning was the shoes and the fact that he just got caught a couple times and didn't seem to care. But regardless, now talking about Lonnie. Somebody who cruises for sex on pretty much a daily basis is bound to get arrested. And Lonnie really wasn't a stranger to police. In fact, he managed to keep a lot of these arrests away from his wife and he got arrested for Grand Theft. Burglary, carrying a loaded firearm, possession of burglary tools, and he managed to keep all of that away from his wife for several years.

1:08:29 Eventually he can't. He gets in big trouble. But for a couple years he's just doing stuff and. His wife has no idea. Nope. Now here's the crazy thing about this. Despite all of this, though, the police never suspected a John of being the killer. Because most of the victims were not. Sex workers. There were maybe one or two who did a little bit of, you know, work to get drugs, but the majority of the victims weren't sex workers, so they didn't assume it was applying. Lonnie went unchecked and unafraid until November 20th, 1988, when he tried to kill Anita Washington.

1:09:11 Now Anita Washington was about to have a really terrible weekend. On Saturday, November 19th, 1988, a 4.5 magnitude earthquake hit. The area. She had just gotten back into town from Louisiana, had gone to work where she did cleaning, shopping and chores for elderly people. She had two kids and she had secured a babysitter. So she was like, I'm not gonna little little earthquake ruin my night. Her plan was to go to her friend's house for a party and then go to go to her friend's house and then the three of them would leave and go to a party. It was in front of her husband. So as Anitra is walking, she's only lives a couple of blocks away from her friends. This man in an orange Ford Pinto with a racing stripe on the hood pulls up on her. And at first she's just like, oh, look at this weirdo, He's got glasses, he's giving off big dork vibes. And so he, like, yelled at her and she ignored him and she kept walking.

1:10:07 And then he pulled up alongside of her and she was just like, listen, don't holler at me from a car. You have to get out and talk to me now, usually. For people who've lived in a big city, because I lived in Philly for a big chunk of my life, that usually stops them. They just ride on. But not in this case. Surprisingly, he got out of the car. He offered her a ride to her friend's house, and she was like, no, that's OK, I'm good. It's only a couple blocks away. And what Lonnie Franklin Jr. says next, I think completely explains his entire relationship with black women. And if I'm honest, if you want to make me mad, this is one of the things that triggers me. When black men say it and I instantly get pissed off, here's the exact quote.

1:10:51 That's what's wrong with you black women. People can't be nice to you. Exactly. Exactly. Oh, it makes me so mad. Because it's a statement that harnesses all of the stereotypes of black women in it, towards us, with it. Because if you get mad now you're an angry black woman. Because we're not allowed righteous indignation, right? So what ends up happening is that you soften and you let this asshole run his game, or you give him your number and hands down, you always regret it. But the guy gets what he wanted by reminding you of how much the world hates you by going. At least I'm interested in you. Nobody else likes girls like you. She actually laughed.

1:11:34 She softened. She was just like, wow, that took some courage to say that to my face. Yeah, we're punched in the face. She kind of took pity on the guy. She's a lot. Taller than him? He's short. She was like, he tried to get at her and she was like, it's only a couple blocks. What's the worst that could happen? Which is the same thing that women always say what second happen someone could try to kill. You that's. Exactly. Well as Anitra. Got in the car. She did notice. A lug nut wrench on the floor and the fact that his dashboard was cracked. She kind of ignored it and she told him where she was going. Almost immediately he went the wrong direction. He told her he had to get something from his uncle's house in only a couple minutes.

1:12:20 He did stop at a house on 81st Street, but she said when he came back he was different. He called her by the wrong name and she told him That's not my name. He reached into the. Driver's side door and shot her point blank in the chest. She actually grabbed. The handle and was contemplating. Rolling out into the street. But he was like, I will shoot you again. He kept calling her the wrong name. He kept calling her. Brenda, she's She begged him to take her to the hospital. He was like, no, I can't do that, she told him. If I die, I'm gonna haunt you. I just love the yo and each her is dope. Sometime during the drive, she. Started to black out. And when she woke up, he was on top of her, pulling her skirt up.

1:13:04 She was losing so much blood, though, that she couldn't stay awake during the attack. She remembers seeing the flash of a Polaroid camera. She remembers hearing the engine start, and she remembers him pushing her out onto the street and driving away. She was actually afraid to move at first, because she wasn't sure that he was done. Like now it's. Dark. She's very weak. She She's aware. Of where is she lives and the fact that nobody's gonna open the door for a gunshot victim in South Central. So bleeding to death, she walks the three blocks to her friend Linda's house and just starts yelling like help me open the door and collapses on the porch. Now Linda and her husband had left and gone to the party without her because they assumed she must have been doing something else.

1:13:51 And we didn't have cell phones back then, so they didn't really have a way to. Connect with her. So by the time I need to got to the house, Linda and husband are already gone. When they get home at about 2:00 AM on November 20th, they find Anitra in the field position bleeding Linda. I think her husband at first just thought like this was a random crime. And Linda noticed that her friend's underwear had been ripped and we're like hanging off of her leg. And Linda called the ambulance and gave them the heads up that this looked like a sex crime. And nature was rushed to the harbor. UCLA Medical Center in. Torrance, about 11 miles away. She had to be put in a compression jacket because her pressure was so low.

1:14:36 She lost 20% of her blood volume and was absolutely going into like multi system shot, yeah. It took. Four days for the surgeons to actually. Stabilize her enough to do the surgery to remove the the bullet from her chest. It had very narrowly missed her heart. Once the LAPD. Got the slug they tested? Of course. It's. A match to Barbara Ware and Deborah Jackson had Rihanna Wright and Bernita Sparks and Mary Lowe and Monique Alexander and Lacretia Jefferson. This was the chance, however, that the LAPD had been looking for. She needed to survive so they could talk to her, right? Yes, save her life.

1:15:20 They absolutely did when she came. She gave them a very good description of his face, his car. She told them exactly where they stopped for him because he said he had to pick up money on 81st St. She remembered everything, even the books that he had in his car that she saw when he dragged her into the back. She said that there were different kinds of mechanics, tools that were in the back, like the hatchback now. Anita was released on December 7th and she immediately took the police to the store where she had been walking by when. They met and then showed them where they stopped. The police eventually got a warrant for that house on 81st St. on February 15th, 1989, But that owner had a different 25 caliber weapon and it wasn't the right one. It was such a good lead, went nowhere and the police didn't really have time to focus on it too much because the South Side Slayer was.

1:16:17 Back to killing people again at the rate of about one woman a month, but they had the description and everything. They. Did and they put that up, but nobody came. Now the Slayer would be named in 19. 93 as. Michael Hughes and Since death for the murders of Yvonne Coleman, 15. Vernon Wolmes, 36, Both of them killed in 1986. Harriet McKinley. 30 killed in 87 Teresa Ballard, 26, Brenda Bradley, 38 both in 1992, and then Terry Miles, 33 and Jamil Harrington both in 1993. It is believed that the actual Slayer, Michael Hughes, was responsible for more murders at the same time as the Grim Sleeper, but these seven were enough to get him the death penalty and keep him off the street for life. According to the LAPD, they believe that no less than six killers were active between 1980 and 1999. And that's not a counting.

1:17:09 For the rest of LA or the rest of California, what the fuck? Yes, South Central, what the? Fuck. Was going on. Now the attack on. Anitra was the. Last of the 25. Caliber murders. And they really wondered why. Maybe he was scared because he left a witness. Maybe all the pictures of his face papered all over town had him shook. But by spring of 1989, it was now officially a cold case. And the South Side Slayer task. Force was. Officially disbanded. 1990 hit. South Central and. It didn't get a lot better crack. Was still. The gang wars are still a problem. And then they had to contend with the LA riots after Rodney King was brutalized by the police on March 3rd, 1991 and the murder of Latasha Harlins after a Korean store owner shot a 15 year old in the back of her head only over $1.79 orange juice. Those were the 2.

1:18:07 Clinching. Acts that caused the riots which went from night April 29th to May 4th. This was a major aspect. Of my life. I remember sitting at home watching this on TV with my family. Then right after that LA had to contend with OJ Simpson. I also remember. Watching that, Remember that vaguely. The entire June 13th. 1994. The That was when. Nicole Brown was murdered along with that guy. I can't remember his name, but Nicole Brown is. The one who? Cared.

1:18:47 About to be fair. And I think it was something right. I gotta look. It up you, you say? Ron, my brain just. Goes Swanson. And that's not his name. No, not Ron Swanson. Let's see Nicole Brown. And Ronald Gold, there you go. Yeah, well, the LAPD. Didn't do really. Well, with that. Whole situation because how of how they handled it and some say botched the OJ arrest in trial 1999 came out. Swinging with. A huge. Corruption scandal in the LAPD known as the Rampart scandal around the Rampart police station and it was all about a super corrupt anti gang unit. That all started when officer.

1:19:35 Rafael Perez got. Busted for stealing cocaine that was in evidence. And he told on Everybody the whole department was making false arrests, tamper with evidence, writing bad police reports and using suspects, planting evidence on civilians. I'm going down. Y'all going down with me. Major media nightmare for the LAPD They. Just did. They had a bad 90s? Yeah, that was bad. Listen, the 80s was full of serial killer. I mean the 80s and then the 90s, yeah. And the 90s, Yeah, because. It didn't stop well, and so the police well, DNA, DNA evidence. Got better? Over that decade and the police began resubmitting DNA from old cases to attempt to 1. Remove the absolute multitude of cold case files that they have and immediately, though this doesn't give them any leads. On the 20. 5 caliber murders Now what's our boy Lonnie doing at this time?

1:20:39 Well, he went back in hiding, focused on his illegal car business, which actually got him into big trouble with the LAPD. In 1993 he was stealing auto parts and selling them and using them to fix cars and on February 25th 1993 they caught him. With his son working on a stolen car, a search of the property showed five more stolen cars and Lonnie got charged with six counts of Grand Theft Auto. He pled guilty to all six counts. And his. Lawyers tried a hard to be like this is his first defense. He'll never do it again. But the judge? Had access to the police, reports Brittany. Yeah, as they had him. In custody?

1:21:22 Oh yeah, so. They couldn't have. Been like, yo, I've seen this face somewhere. There's a sketch. I know I've seen a sketch of this face somewhere many like a few years ago. Like, yeah, it would have been about four years before. Yeah, they would have. Had that composite out. This is not like they don't just like member, like, whatever. I gotta be real for you. Like a lot of these. Dudes, when they get arrested, they do like the scary face. You look all me. Oh, wow. And they do kind of look. Similar, it's just it's the the mean. Face the mean. I killed somebody Thing. I know, but damn. Come on. These like, OK, whatever, OK, whatever. I don't know.

1:22:03 Whatever, That's OK. I understand the position. Regardless though, the judge was like you actually are connected to like almost thirty stolen cars. And you've been stealing cars since high school and there was that gun possession charge and receiving stolen property in 84 and the burglary tools of 89 and assault with a deadly weapon in 1991 when you were fighting with a prostitute. You are not innocent by any stretch of the means. They gave him a year in county because apparently stealing cars is not that big of a fans. Somehow he got out. He got out within. Four months because. LA County prisons are overrun with people who've done much worse. And he somehow managed to not go back to prison. Despite continuing to get arrested for Grand Theft Auto robbery and more assault with a deadly weapon, he did pretty much.

1:22:55 Everything. That you can do except violate his parole and had the one stipulation for his parole was you may not own or use a firearm for the next three years. So he didn't. He just did everything else. That you could possibly do. I'm just really over the fact. So he got, he got the, the the gun with the assault with a deadly weapon charge. Was that a gun charge? Right. Nope. No. Fucking no. That charge was because he got in. He got in a fight. With a woman in the car and he actually, like, tried to push her out of the vehicle while it was moving, they considered the deadly weapon the car.

1:23:42 OK. OK. Yeah. I heard. I've heard that before, OK. I guess, yeah, They were like, you nearly killed her with the car. By not making sure she wasn't still attached to it when you pushed her out of it, but he got and that was just because they got into a fight. But you got the the, the freaking what the the gun charge something what the gun charge you said that was that was way back though and it might not. Have been the right. Oh come on, he's just killing me. Well then, in 2000, he. Started killing again. The next victim wouldn't be found until 2002. Her name was Princess.

1:24:23 Breath of meow breath. Of you. Princess's. Story was like the one that literally. Made me tear up when I was writing it. She's only 15 years old before she met him, and she had a really awful life. She was abandoned by her mother as a toddler, abused by her father after that. Removed from his care on October 14th when she was two years old. 1882 she was, apparently. Accidentally also exposed to. Cocaine by her father and girlfriend. And she was covered in cigarette burns and marks from being hit with a Switcher belt.

1:25:15 To the smart family and their children and everything was beautiful until 1990. She was moved into a foster family in 1990. Her foster family said that she would wake up just screaming. She was three years old with PTSD. Eventually the things got better and she. When Dolores Smart died from cancer. And I can really say that I understand how Princess would feel here. It's one thing to lose a mom, but when that mom chooses you and she dies, it feels completely different. Like, yeah, I believe. I bet Princess never recovered from this loss. She got angry and insular. Her other family didn't really understand why she couldn't cope her foster. Father David. Was also in poor health. Congenitive, heart failure and had three heart attacks, and he had determined that he couldn't take care of any of the foster kids anymore. He was going. Who had moved out and she attempted to help. There were three of them, Princess, and two other girls. David did have an oldest child.

1:26:16 But Samara. Was a full time college student with three kids of her own. So it was just too much for her to now take care. Of 6. The two younger girls were. Taken to another family. And in 1988, Princess was back in the foster Christian student at 12 years old. From that point forward. She ran away from every foster. Home she was placed in and she was reported missing to the Hawthorne Police on December 21st, 2001. By her. Foster mother Ronnie Smith. She ended up working for a pimp in Hawthorne and never went back to any foster family again. When the call came in. Just after midnight on March 9th, 2:00. 1002 Nobody was really thinking about the 25 caliber killer There was a naked female body in.

1:27:05 An alley. Behind the S Van Ness building, Sorry. Behind S Van Ness Blvd. In Inglewood. Medical Examiner Dr. Rafi Jaborian. Said that it had. Was able. To discover what happened three days later on. March 12th. Her eyes were full and shut from being hit in the face. There was a ligature mark on the back of her neck. They could tell that she had been sodomized from the blood in and around the cavity. She had been asphyxiated. They named her Jane Go, 15, the 15th of the year, and it was only March, God. They made a sketch of her face.

1:27:47 They took a rape kit. And her sketch was actually handed out at a LAPD press conference. But nobody called for Princess. But the forensics? Team decided to keep. They tested the rape kit and they found a pancreatic enzyme found in human saliva that saliva was. Swabbed on. Her genitals, her right knee, right ankle, left nipple, right nipple and they processed the samples. Uploaded them to local, state and federal DNA data. Banks of Felons Princess wouldn't be identified for another. 5. The next. Victim was Valerie Louise Mccorby on. July 11th, 2003 A school crossing guard arrived.

1:28:31 At. Her spot at 6:35 AM and a man pulled up beside her and was like, you need to call the police. There's a dead body over there and pointed to an alley. And then drove off. She didn't get a good look. At the guy before he pulled away. But it was a light colored miss size car. I've always wondered and the police never said this, but I wonder if that was him. It sounds like it probably could have been like if there's nothing in the official. Records that they. Think it was him who talked to the crossing guard. But like a lot of times, serial killers get, they get ballsy and they they want. Should be they. Want people to find the person? So it could be on.

1:29:13 The news and they can feel like, yeah, I did that. Regardless, though, Valerie's clothes were pulled up. Down underwear was gone. The. Police realized. That she had a road rash and a bruise on her shoulder, meaning that she was probably alive when she was dumped from the car. Just like Princess, she had been strangled. A. Toxicology report revealed drugs and alcohol in her system. They swapped her for DNA. Valerie was a drug addict. Who lived on the street? Where? She died. She'd been arrested six times in the past. She was connected to a pimp named Nobles. Nobles. Got her pregnant. And that actually ended up being the thing that made Valerie want to have a better life.

1:29:57 Her first child, Symphony, was put up for adoption because she was born with drugs in her system, and her second child, Matthew, was born October 29, second 1989. She tried her hardest to stay clean. And I think the interesting thing is when. She started working at a facility to help other addicts. So you know, but it just didn't. She was clean, she. Cut all of her ties with Nobles and originally when Valerie went missing, nobles daughter assumed that her dad had killed Valerie. Yeah, she was a teenager. And was just like. I. Think my dad did it and believed it for the next seven years until was discovered that Valerie was connected to the Grim Sleeper now in late 2000.

1:30:46 1A Sex Crimes. Detective named David Lampkin pushed the LAPD to open up a cold case unit. Because of the improvements of DNA evidence, they got everything retested and that's when the unit noticed that a lot of evidence in these old cases had just been thrown out. And like, they're like, this is gonna absolutely ruin how many cases we can really solve but in 2000. They got a hit related to a woman named Paula Vance, and that was the DNA of a man named. Chester Turner. And they were able to connect. Chester Turner. To 10 other murders. That they had assumed was the South Side Slayer. They had now found a second serial killer in South Central. This was a major success and so they started looking at other cases and went well.

1:31:38 Who else can we look into? The cool key students was like, what about the 25 caliber killings. So they retested the bullets they were. Like, good. All of these go to the same gun. Unfortunately, they could only submit three sets of DNA evidence from the seven murders before Mary Lowe, Bernita Sparks and Barbara, where Deborah Jackson and Monique were too decomposed for a good sample and Henrietta Wright's case file had just been destroyed. No clue why, just that it had been. Ten months later, December 9th, 2004, they get a match linking Mary Lowe to Valerie.

1:32:18 Luis Mccorvey killed on July 11th, 2003 and now we're back in business. OK, we could connect. Well, The thing is a lot of those early murders. Were connected via the. And now we had a DNA connection from the current murders to the old ones that are all connected via bullets. Nice. OK, they only have one problem. This guy's DNA is not. In the system. What? Somehow, magically, he. Never done anything that meant that he would get swab. Swab, yeah.

1:32:58 Because you don't normally swab DNA for somebody who steals. A car or something random like that. I mean, OK, I guess. Well, here's the thing in the past now. For felonies, they do swab people, but that'll come. Into play in the. So since the evidence, they realized that the killer's last target had definitely been a need for Washington before Valerie McCormick. Of course there are 1,000,000 questions as this guy gone to jail. The answer is yes, Serial killers don't normally just stop over the next two years. They did look over the suspects that they had in the past. Donald Bertine. He had been in prison since 1990, so it couldn't be him killing. Now they looked at Dennis Pinckney, Jimmy Lewis. They also tried to connect him to the former LA County Sheriff's Deputy Ricky Ross, who also had a bunch of murders under his belt.

1:33:50 But no, Ross had died June 2nd, 2003, five weeks before Valerie was murdered. Lewis wasn't in prison and didn't have any DNA in the database. They actually followed him and like stole a napkin out of his trash can and test and but ultimately on one of the detectives knocked on his door. He was just like this again. Because remember I mentioned that pinckney. Was the informant. And then she switched her story and said it was Louis. He was like, here, take my DNA. He's ruled out as a suspect. Handy had died in July of 1990, so it couldn't be him now. The cool case team was just going to. Continue working every angle.

1:34:31 And then the killer struck again. Her name was Janicea Peters, aka Nicia, and she started life as just a weird little kid. Who would do things like cover herself and Vaseline and crawl around the room and warrant people? OK or. She would. Take off all the labels to all the canned goods and leave them for her mom. And. Just cackle. Not that kind of kid. Damn it this evil. And she got. She got into dance. She. Started a dance troupe with her sisters. Adult lessons proved to be sad for her because three of her friends were killed by drug violence and teens. She got pregnant at 19 and her.

1:35:11 Family was super. Her mom and sister were there when she gave birth. Her sister even caught the cord. Life is hard, but it's at least bearable when you have someone there with you. Lucy was a good mom. She ended up. Going to the. Inglewood Adult School. When her son Justin was a year old, she enrolled in classes at Southwest College in LA College. She wanted to be a computer programmer or maybe a teacher. Her mom, Laverne. It was in college, though. When she picked up a Coke. Addiction and started getting a rest of her solicitation. She was in and out of jail from not point forward her family had. To kind of separate themselves. From her and it was late December when Lisia called her mom.

1:35:57 Excited. She was like I. Found a place. Laverne and Necia had a conversation about how she wasn't going to return Justin to Necia until she was really clean and back on track. Before Necia hung up. She said to her mom. Tell Justin I love him. She was found on January 1st, 2:00. 1007 at 9:00. AM by a homeless man who was collecting recyclables. Her body was inside of a black trash pad covered in recycling stuff. That bag was under an old Christmas tree and cardboard boxes inside of a dumpster. When the police got there, they noticed the reason the homeless man was like, I couldn't. The killer had met for Anicia not to be.

1:36:43 Get the bag open. And they realized the reason why was that it had been zip tied shut. She was taken to the county corner immediately. She had been shot in the back. They determined that as soon as the bullet. Hit her. She would have. Been paralyzed. Her left eye showed a partial hemorrhage. They couldn't figure out whether her cause of death was the the bullet or asphyxiation, but the person that obviously tried to strangle her necia had last been. Seen alive on New Year's Eve. A couple of druggies and working girls were all hanging. Behind the Fairlane Motel until midnight, another one of the working women told the police they saw her. The area at 1:00 AM.

1:37:26 The police were definitely. Right, the 20. 5 Caliber Killer was back at it. Again and. Getting confident again now on. April 27th, 2007, Cold case. Detective Cliff Shepard got a fax with another DNA hit. Saliva found on the zip tie matched Princess and Valerie and now we have a confirmed 10 murders. So they formed a task. Force, they called. It the 800. Task Force. Because of the number on their office door, it was composed of seven veteran police. Officers who had. A combined 100 years of experience, Detective Coulter Kill Coin. Fallon and Shepherd. Were all within five years of retirement, and so they said that was the deadline before. We have.

1:38:10 To retire, we have to find this guy. Lonnie Franklin Jr. Now back to. he did get. Arrested again in 2003 for car left and car theft and receiving stolen property. Sorry, April 2nd 2003 He was put in jail for two. 170 days, but again released for only 40% of his sentence. Him was that he kept going to jail for 3-4 months at a time. So the police went wrong. Part of the reason why they did. He kept a low profile from this point forward. The 800 tasks were spent. Most of two. 1007 trying to figure out the profile of the killer. Was this about a hatred of black women, probably linked to a mother?

1:38:56 Hatred like Ed Kemper? A scorned lover like Bundy? Sex addiction like Gary Ridgway? I say possibly the gap. In the kills was confusing for them, but. For one thing they were certain about was he was gaining confidence and he was definitely going to do it again. The task force pulled every murder even closely resembling it, even ones that had already been. Solved which was pulling. 150 cases over the last 20-3 years. They looked for. The anonymous tipster who had called in of the different tipsters who had called into other bodies. They even talked to the old police informant, Shelley Brown. Again, by spring of 2008 the task force had run down a lot of leads and they were really struggling not to lose hope themselves.

1:39:43 And then California approved. A Very. New and controversial forensic tool. What do you think that is right, New and controversial? It's the thing that I don't like. Is it? It's that. Thing. Is that the is that thing? Familial DNA testing. Yes, that thing. The thing with the 23 andme in 2008, this was very controversial. Because people like. Me feel like we didn't give permission for our DNA to enter a federal database, but the Governor of California at the time, Jerry Browns did. The benefit of doing this and potentially catching murderers outweighed the ethical quandary.

1:40:27 And if you aren't well versed listeners as far as the volume of serial killers. I said this before, but I have the exact number now. California beats out every other state with 1628 serial killers to compare. The entire United States has 3204 serial pillows. They were desperate. So about half, half of them have. Taken place in California. Now with the familial DNA being allowed to check get checked. In 2008, they decided that you didn't get a free run of everybody's DNA and the way to make people happy was to say that this case had to be submitted to the state. And you had to prove that you had done absolutely everything else you could do in your power to find this killer before we allowed you access to this DNA database that at the time had only about a million people in it.

1:41:18 That way they could tell the other. Organizations concern with. Civilian privacy that you know every time Dick and Harry isn't about to get access to all these people. Now Coulter shepherd and kill coin. Had to actually fly to. Sacramento and meet with the Bureau Chief of the California Department of Justice, Jill Spriggs to plead their case. The major point being that this killer had destroyed lives for over 20 years. He's actively killing again and they had done everything else other than just wait for him to do it again. They did get approved, but the next delay? Was the fact. That they need to prepare a special software to figure out how to do it. The Texas Rd. stands to.

1:41:58 Look at in the meantime. Christine Pelisek pretty much harassed Detective Shepherd until he told her that there had been a third, a tenth murder. She ended up meeting with Kilcoy and told him she intended to write an entire article about Janisia Peters and the secret task force, and then she started tracking on the victim's families. That article was the one where she named him The Grim Sleeper and ultimately morphed into the book. That I use as a main resource. And actually after. He died. She was also the person to report on that as well. Like Prestige just was the person who followed this case from 2000. So it's completion. I haven't.

1:42:40 I have a I'm iffy about reporters, like sometimes, and rules seem to be doing pretty good, yeah. I mean, you know, sometimes they have, sometimes they, they are just in the fucking way. That's true, but like I said. I'm in the beginning. Christine is the. One who named him the Grim Sleeper and the name hit a nerve in LA and across America, and it's stuck once that article exploded. And people. Knew that. Christine was working with the LAPD. They started contacting her and they were like, I am sure that my coworker or my husband is the Grim Sleeper. And so Christine was like, get a DNA sample, I'll pass it along. So she did that.

1:43:24 And so they were like. We don't have anything else we can do right now, so we might as well test these people. Psychics and mediums called her two then. Christine got a weird letter that had eight photos of a black man having sex with different black women. She passed this weird letter along to. The task force. I personally think that Lonnie. That was him. He. Contacted her. He was like, Oh yeah, you could give me a name. Here's a photo of some of the stuff that I did. God now, December 2nd. 2008 The familia DNA. Tool came back blank with a grim sleeper. They waited for so long and.

1:44:05 It failed. So Christine focused next on telling a Nitra. Originally, Anitra was less than willing to talk to anybody because she had been ignored for over a decade. She's a very like. Blunt. To the point, kind of woman. And Christine earned her trust by just coming and being around her and seeing her in the. Community. Christine also learned a lot about the meeting. From Anitra. Like Anitra was pretty sure that the man who had raped and shot her. Stalked her for years after the attack. She said that she would be taking a bus and she would see this one guy just watching her. She got phone calls in the middle of the night, like he was keeping track of her.

1:44:53 One day he even. Walked up to her and was like, do you know me? Oh no. And in each and Anitra was like, am I supposed to? After that, he stopped. Following her but it. Occurred to her later. Holy crap, that's him. The task force. Manages to get the state to put up A5. $100,000 reward in February of 2009. They just wanted the world to. Pay attention. To this serial killer they released all the composite sketches again, one from beginning and then one showing like a five year age and a 10 year age kill coin actually. Released the 9/1. One call reporting Barbara Ware's body dump to the media. The police chief asked for public help and solving the only still outstanding serial murderer working in the city currently that actually did backfire on Phil Coin. They didn't know that Barbara Ware had any relatives and her stepmother was still alive.

1:45:54 And she was real mad to turn on the news and see her daughter's picture and hear that 911 call. Suddenly they had 100 new tips though. Many were bad leads, or just dead ends. Force They were only given one police vehicle was just Dennis Kilcoyne, Cliff Shepherd. By 2010, the task force was down to four people, just the old timers. The other three had been reassigned. All overtime hours were cut on the. Fallon and Paul Coulter. And then in March of 2010, Jill Spriggs called them and went. Why don't you? Try it again. The database is bigger now. So they tried one more.

1:46:38 Time The second familial. Search request was submitted on March 31st, 2010. On June 30th, Dennis. Kilcoyne got a. Call from Scriggs about canceling a breakfast that they had planned. She usually had to come into town once a month to do a meeting with law enforcement, and so the following day she would have brunch with them. The call was actually kind of cute. Spriggs was like. Don't. You want to know why I have to cancel breakfast and kill Coin? And kill Coin was like, you're in charge of 13 evidence labs. You're busy and she was like, you need to sit down. And he was, she's like, are you sitting down? And he's like, no. And she's like, you need to and she's like, I have to go to LA.

1:47:18 For something related to. The Grim Sleeper. And I can't say why she's like, but I need you to pick me up from the airport and call a meeting. The following day at. That meeting, Springs. Got right to the. Point There were five close matches and one perfect match. That perfect match was 28 year old Christopher John Franklin, the son of Lonnie Franklin Jr. He had been swapped the. Summer of 2009. After pleading guilty to a felony weapons charge, there were only two. Possibilities for a. Relative of Christopher and uncle in Riverside. And Lonnie Franklin Jr. his father.

1:48:00 They looked at everything they could about. Lonnie They went undercover. Starting July 2nd, 2010, trying to grab any item that he could possibly leave behind that showed DNA on it. They watched him go out and try and pick up prostitutes. They watched him meet a girlfriend, stay the night at her house. And then on July 5th they got a great opportunity. They saw that Lonnie and Sony's daughter like he picked Lonnie, picked up Sony's daughter and a bunch of other little girls and went to a pizza parlor. And the cops actually went into the restaurant and said we need to have one of your employees step down and then we're gonna insert an officer to pretend to be an employee. I'll step down.

1:48:40 I need a break. Let's go. So the the cop went in the back, put on the, put on the uniform and that allowed them to take. All of the garbage that he physically saw Lonnie eat from like half of a piece of chocolate cake. All of his stuff was put in a separate bag from the rest of the table and take it in for testing. It took Why? They said it would take one day to create a DNA profile for Lonnie. That was a lie. It was a holiday weekend, so it didn't come until July 7th. It was the 4th of July weekend, but at 6:40. 5:00 AM, Kill Coin. Got a text? That just said, positive results that allowed them to bring. In Lonnie and get a warrant to.

1:49:28 Such his house. I'm gonna spare you the annoying details of the transcripts of his investigation. Interrogation. He lied the whole time, of course. Swore up and down. He never saw any of these. Women, even when they told him that they saw him cruising for prostitutes and they had been watching him for like a week, he was like, I don't know what you're talking about. We think you, we think I'm not cheating on my wife. OK Sir, we sell. They were like, we have your DNA. Your. DNA is connected to like 5 murders. He was like, I don't know what you're talking about. He was like pointing at the pictures of the victims laughing like haha, what do you mean?

1:50:08 That's just terrible while this super frustrating interview is going on. They go to the house, they find 1000 photos, several 100. Hours of videos of him having sex with other women hand in the garage. The camper. The police ended up releasing. 180 pictures of like women's faces just to be like, hey, if this is you, can you let us know? You're like alive because we don't know where 108 these hundred. 80 people. Are we've tried to find them? Simply the grim. They're like, listen, the. Grim Sleeper had your. Picture in his house and we don't know why, but please contact us if you know any of these women are he was officially charged in two. 10 But there was a. Very long road to trial at one point in 2011. They did.

1:50:58 Find 5 more people from those pictures. And a. Man who they believed may have known one of the victims, which is why he was murdered. The trial was pushed. Off until February 16th. 2016 Oh my God, this is partially because of pretrial. Discovery and having to sift through hundreds of hours of video 1000. Many of the young women on the tapes were underage at the time. There was a decision about should they pursue these as child pornography charges if the statue of limitations covered the potential rape charges. Just like with Richard. Ramirez they chose.

1:51:40 To focus on the murders because they thought that would be an easier conviction and it would take longer to put him in prison to bring in more charges against him. Yeah, yeah, I get. That Lonnie brought in a. Powerhouse of. A law team led by a man named Seymour Amster, who wasted time by demanding that things be tested and retested to his liking. Also, Amster was waiting until the last possible moment. To send. Over their discovery in a timely manner and waiting until the last possible moment to return the review on the discovery from the prosecution, it was clusterfuck at trial things a little more.

1:52:25 Subdued the defense. Led with photos of all the victims and all the horrible things that he did, what was actually the most damning was that interrogation. He had been making jokes, those jokes. As the. Detectives showed the victims and trying to show like, this is crazy. What are you talking about? But in the courtroom, that video made it seem like he just didn't care. Yeah, that's what it sounded like all the way to the end. He never. Took responsibility. Closing arguments were May 2nd. The jury deliberated from May 4th to May 5th and came back conviction on all counts. He was sentenced on May 12th. And it was there that they showcased the six other people that they had connected to him.

1:53:06 That was Sharon Alicia Disbeck, January 15th, 1984, believed to be his first victim, Thomas Sylvester Steels. That was the man that they think was. Connected to the other victims August 14th 1986 he died and as Elizabeth Warren, August 15th 1988, she was not originally considered a grim sleeper victim. But her death matched his Emma was the same for Georgia May Thomas. 28th 2000 Ayella Marshall. Her remains. Were never found but her school ID card. Was. Found in. His garage.

1:53:48 And that was where he kept his trophies. Ayella was 18, Relenia Morris. She was also never found. Her driver's license and several explicit photos were found in his garage and Anita Washington. To Lonnie at his sentencing, finally getting the moment to speak her peace and get some closure on this man who raped her, tried to kill her and scalped her. And then on June? Six 2016 Lonnie. Franklin Jr. was sentenced to death and then the Superior Court affirmed it on August 10. Lonnie will be executed for the murders. Of Deborah Jackson. Henrietta Wright, Barbara Ware, Bernita Sparks, Mary Lowe, Lacretia Jefferson, Alicia Alexander, Princess Barthomio, Valerie Mccorvey, and Janisha Peters. Unfortunately, he never saw.

1:54:45 His execution date on March 28th, 20. Lonnie was found dead in his cell at 67 years old. Natural causes, OK, I was about to say. God 10 or Brittany. He didn't deserve to die peacefully. He did. But, but in the words of. Barbara Where stepmother Diana? Diane I won't. Say I'm. Pleased he died. But at the. End there was justice for all the bad things he did in his life. We can now be at peace, I guess. That was frustrating. I know, a tough one.

1:55:26 So imagine. Imagine if Ramirez was around for as long as this guy was. He never got called. Well, there is a belief I. Don't know if you remember. This from the documentary but his first. Murder was a child. At a hotel that he was staying at right like a big chunk of. Time before. He started killing people in the suburbs, and because of how frequent his attacks were, a lot of people don't believe that he just stopped between those two times.

1:56:07 Also, if you remember, he taunted the police in another city. Yeah, remember. I think that was like. Of a city that was further north of LA. And he was just like, hey, you should look into those old ladies. And he pretty much told those police officers that he had killed in their region. So it's believable? Yeah, So it's believable that he. Absolutely. Probably continued killing it was. Only. And I hate to say it this way, but it was only when he started killing wealthy people from the middle class or upper class that people gave a shit about who he was. Taken out, I mean. Remember the Cecil Hotel documentary? Yeah, he was.

1:56:48 They said that he would just show up covered in blood. Take. Off his clothes in the back. Alley and walk upstairs covered in blood, just in his underwear, like he was obviously doing something during that time. Yeah, we just don't know what. I'm just like, but what? If it What if it had, like just spanned until like, the 2000s? She's. Like, Oh my God. That's why like, after use, like at after all this time and I'm thinking about like Lonnie and just all this stuff and it was like, wow, so this just kept going and going and going.

1:57:39 If I have to cover. Like if Ramirez had not been called when he did, like when he was called like this were just good. There's another one that's been requested, but I don't. The very, very, very long history of the Golden State killer he was in. He was another one who familial DNA was necessary. That might be a. Two or three-part, Yeah. He has a long. History of being. A burglar, then a rapist, then a killer. 3 different ages of crime terrorizing LA. I am done for today. I know this. One went long. It is. One of our yeah I think it is going to be one of our the longest one now. Yeah, sorry you all. It's just.

1:58:20 I get in a vibe and I can't stop. I need an editor. Me. I think I edit myself too much. OK, Brittany, what if, What if? Lonnie was ending in the New York area, Okay, and there was a service that I don't know, say cater to criminals and people who had done wrong in their lives and just cater to them so they can just, you know, get off of their chest what they had done. Now this one, it's a request, OK? It's from Tara.

1:59:19 She requested for for. Folks who don't. Know that's the wife. Yeah, so it's it's it's, you know, when your wife asks you to cover? Something you do it because you're being nice to her and she's like. She's been asking for for me to do something like this is not like under my wheelhouse because I talk about paranormal and and other stuff. She's like, but you talk about interesting things too. I'm like, yeah, but yeah, I mean, you have been getting a little away. From the cryptic world lately. I mean last week was you just talking about weird stuff in in the SO. I mean their space, OK?

2:00:01 And listen the people who like you. Just like hearing you. And apparently looking at your face which they did not realize you were attractive person until recently because there have people have been lusting. After you on the. Discord, you didn't see that? Oh my goodness, I. Thought it was. I was like, you got a fan anyway? I'm watching him just blush right now. Y'all. Anyway. Today, today I'll be talking about.

2:00:43 Tell me you've heard about this. The apology. Silence. Your silence speaks magnitudes. I'm listening. Have you heard of the apology line before? You've not Wow. Okay. I don't know what that is at all. Okay. So the apology line. Is Okay. So it started out in the 80s and it is. It was basically a line that you would call. From the pay phone. And say if you were a criminal. Or. You had done something wrong, or you had something that you needed to get off your chest or you like, whatever. What?

2:01:32 There was this. I'm not this. Is the thing. When was this? Well, OK, so the the. Actual line started. In the 1980s and here let. Me read this. Read the flyer for you. OK, hold on SEC. Let me pull it up. Let me pull it up. Does it say attention at the top? Yes it does. It's a yellow piece of paper. It's a yellow flyer. OK, I'm watching. OK, you're reading OK, it says. Attention amateurs. Criminals. Blue collar, white collar. You have wrong people. It is to people that you must apologize. Not to the state, not to God.

2:02:19 Get your misdeeds off your chest. And there's a number for you to call. It says call apology and then the phone number. It probably doesn't work anymore. Actually is. There, I'm pretty sure it. It does. I think it not. If it's not this one, there's another one. It's the same thing, and we'll get into that later. But so I'm gonna keep reading. The idea of apology is to provide a way for people to apologize for your wrongs against people without jeopardizing themselves. Apology will automatically tape record your anonymous phone call. Do not identify yourself and call from a pay phone to prevent tracing.

2:02:59 Describe in detail what you have done and how you feel about it. When enough statements have been collected, they will be played to the public at a time and place to be advertised. Apology is a private experiment. Its sole purpose is to provide a new Ave. of communication. It is not associated with any in any way with any police, government religious or other organization. So and there's a number and has like it's oldfashioned of course. So this from 1980s has a little number tabs you can pull off and take and take it with you and you can call.

2:03:40 If you, I mean and that guy. Was his name Jose Ferreira? He should have called this one. He called the news station and cried about how he killed a girl and this was all. Set up in New York. So yeah. OK, so this is only local. Yeah, this is a different city, but. I remember that cases guys just like just called the radio, called the TV station and sobbing about how he had murdered a girl like 30 years before. And then it had like Gil, it was the guilt was eating away at him and they arrested him. God, so I'm. Like see he should have called this number if he didn't want. To get caught. But he probably wanted to get caught. Yeah, we'll see. Yeah, it should be in every state. Honest, honestly, it should be there again. I don't know.

2:04:25 Like, wouldn't it be full of like you? Imagine how many kids call the number and are like I hit my sister, I'm sorry and hang up. Hey, sometimes, actually. Hooking it. Too, But there were some kids that called the apology line. Actually I can imagine like one of your. Kids calling you talk about something they did to the other. 10 she took. My teddy bear. I'm so sorry. So I smacked. I didn't mean to. I mean it. She started crying. So sorry. I didn't really care until my sister cried. Yeah, same thing. Then all of a sudden. I was like. Ah, shouldn't. And I fucked up.

2:05:06 Got it. But. Yeah, this is my attempt to do something a little different. It's it's not true crime, but it's also not paranormal. It's just, you know, something's interesting and it does. It does have to do crimes and stuff, but you know, this feels very relevant to you know. But it's not a tip line. This is you releasing. Do you just lay? Yourself off your. It's like a confessional, basically, yeah. Yeah, I know. Right, so. Before we get to the meet of this topic, we had to start off with the person who actually created this apology line. Is is a man named Allen Bridge.

2:05:50 So there wasn't much about his childhood that he he did grew up he he was born in Fall Church of Virginia, February 14th, 1945. And he went to the University of Chicago and he got a degree and Fine Arts like and he moves to Washington, DC after he graduates, he gets his degree And he, of course he was an artist. So he did large scale paintings and stuff like that. And he had some of his art exhibited at like, different galleries and you know.

2:06:36 He did this from 1970 to. 1977 and in 1977, he eventually moves to New York City. He works as a sculptor, Carpenter. You know, he also had a little bit of a criminal past himself. He shoplifted. It's just that was, yeah, that was like his thing. He would shoplift and I think where'd I get the quote from The wire and he got interviewed by the wire Wired say and Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And. He was talking about how you said. The wire and my brain went to the TV.

2:07:18 Show for a second My bad wire. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The. The. Journalist site, that. Covers kind of everything. It used to be just technology, but now they do everything. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, he got it. He interviewed with them. He talked about how he used to shoplift and how just like, it just seemed like it was juvenile. And like, he just felt really guilty about doing it at that time. Yeah, and. Like, I read this thing on Wikipedia. He made this art thing, like, so it was like he made this type of sculpture, right?

2:07:59 And it was called Crime Time. It was like a freaking wheel. If you look on Wikipedia, it explains what it does. It has crime or you. Like you got away with a crime or you didn't get away with a crime, blah blah, you spin the wheel. You if it falls on you got away to crime, then you get a fucking marble or something. Then if you don't get away to crime, then you get locked into this thing for like a minute. And it was just like an art project that he did, which is, you know, yeah, it's really interesting. I read it like when I read it, I was like, oh, that's pretty cool. That's pretty cool. So. We get to 1980. Right, 1980, he has his idea.

2:08:40 For a social experiment, slash our project, our experiment. It's sort of a hotline for people to apologize for things they've done in their lives. No judgment, no police. And like I read from the flyer earlier that was you guys can look it up if you. Want if you look. At it. It's it's something I think the I'm I'm pretty sure the number still works or that there's a different number, but I'll get it. Like I said anyway. So after he sets it up, after he sets, like he goes around, you know, New York City, he sets all these Flyers around around the city and the calls start rolling in. So he has, the way he has it set up is that in his apartment it's connected to an answering machine. So this is in his own personal part of it. And it's just the answer machine just sitting there and it just goes, you know, just he goes away, he comes back there, messages, and he just takes the tape out. He listens to him.

2:09:52 As you decide. Which ones are good enough to go on TV? I. Don't think he. I don't think he. Discriminated against. I think he just played all of them. I mean, you want the juicy one, like the guy who? Does people of New York doesn't pick the like? Plain people. He picks people who say something crazy. OK, true, true. But his word like he was basically just it was for everybody. So he didn't care whatever, he just played it all. And this range from a caller who had witnessed a. A I guess a robbery in a bathroom and who did not report it or didn't do anything about it.

2:10:37 He just, he just let it happen all the way up to murderers, child molesters, people who have just done terrible things. So if you are inclined there, look, so there's a podcast, right? It's it's called the apology line. It's all of somebody turn this into. So we wait. Did somebody just research this, or have they become the new apology line? It's the new apology line. But guess what? It's ran by his widow. Oh, OK, so they're. Still doing it?

2:11:20 Yeah, basically. They never. OK. OK. Yeah. I'm not mad at that. This is it's. Weird I. Don't know if I would. Roll it in. You don't think that if you? Had something that was like weighing. Down on your chest that you like you like something that you really felt bad about. That you you wouldn't call in, you wouldn't like, want someone to talk to you about that besides. Besides. Like a priest. Besides, like a priest or somebody I have never done. Anything that bad? Neither have I, so we're good.

2:12:03 But yeah, the apology. This is also why. People have therapy. This is true. This is true. Yeah, it's hosted by his widow. Her name is Marissa Bridge. So in the first episode, I listed it like the first episode because good research, yeah. She. Talks about, you know she just it's like the the bare bones is like she talks about how how they met you know things about Allen and stuff like that and sprinkles in between like this this episode there are recording the recordings of the of the phone calls the old one.

2:12:47 Yeah, yeah, yeah, They're all like. And. Like some, it's a little hard to listen to some of them because of. How? Like, the quality is just a little shitty, but there's one. And. It's at the like close to the end of the episode where you know so, so this is what he would. Do okay he would. Like have like a dinner. Party or something like that, you know. You'd be hanging out with his friends and stuff at at his apartment and he'd be like. So let's see what apology has today. And just pop out. Like pop in a tape just for everybody, all his friends to listen to. Oh, I don't like.

2:13:34 It. So there's this one tape that he played. For people start OK, I killed my. Baby brother when I was 14 years old. Like in the middle of a party. Look look. I. Can read some of the quotes and stuff. I don't really. I could not find any transcripts from these phone calls and I don't think I can play any of them on here because I don't own them. So yeah, yeah, I didn't think so, but it feels like that would be smart. Considering the widow. Is still in control of all this stuff true that we not. So yeah, yeah. How about we not do that?

2:14:16 But there's. One there, there's one at the at. It's not the very end but it's you know by posted end of the episode. Let me see if I can pull it up. It's. It's in 1981. And is when he gets his phone call or just this, this blah, this message. On the apology line. Is it? No, actually, he's ready. Whatever. He gets his phone call and it's basically a death threat towards him, yeah. God.

2:14:57 If I had saved it. My thing is, what if people heard it and they? Knew who it. Was. Like how many people ended up getting. So beat up. Because. Somebody was like I. Really have to just get this off of my trust. I've been sleeping with my friend's wife for three years and I think the baby is mine. And then that guy heard the call and knew it was his friend. And then be. His friend's. Ass I. Mean. That could because I mean some. People's voices are. This is true. Like you can probably tell. Well, I don't. Know I have my I have a telephone voice and then I have this voice so. Listen, if I was ever gonna call any one. Of those places I.

2:15:43 Would have to have like a voice changer that was just like, I don't know, I wanna play like it would have to be like. I'd have to have like the. Saw voice. Or something jigsaw be here. Oh my God, yeah, I'd have to use like. One of those like voice changer. Machines turn the, you know, jigsaw. I just wouldn't put myself in a position to get rocked like. Saying, I also don't sleep with my best friend's cousins. Uncle's dad. So, OK, you know, so all. Right. You got the story, yeah. So. It's it's like so. There's one caller, he. Calls, and he sounds pretty freaking manic, OK? And he goes on about.

2:16:27 You know how he. Would mug people in how at first he started feeling guilty about it, but then, like now that he's called this apology line, he's starting to, like, reconsider. Feeling guilty about it because he's getting off his chest now, you know what I mean? Like a confessional type of thing. So the quotes it. He quotes it says The opportunity you've given me to apologize and tell these people that I'm sorry, it's it's fantastic. And I could go out tonight and start mugging again is and. Like.

2:17:07 And like. Close to the end of this phone call, because this phone call was pretty fucking long. It was like I think 7 minutes is what they said on the episode and. Towards the end of the. The phone call, he goes. This is to whoever is writing this thing. I will find out who you are and he's like he's saying it and. In not an angry way, but he's saying it in. Like a really. Really manic way, like he's like, he's happy, He's happily saying this to this person, yes. He's like. I will find you. And believe me, I will kill you like I'm going to kill you. And it's it's going to be okay, right? Because then I'll just apologize and then it'll be all right. So as long as someone accepts my apology then it would be OK. I.

2:18:12 Heard this? When I heard it. I was like, Oh my God. This is terrible. Oh my. God, yeah. I'm pretty like it says that he has he's. Gotten other that that stress but that was like that's the one that I I don't want to hear any other ones that's like how they go because that's that was bad that gave me chills when I first heard. It and I was like. Yeah, that's rough. There's a, There's a.

2:18:54 Person who called, I guess it was a prankster or somebody called is like. So it's like they did a poem type of. Thing and it. Goes you've raved and raved. That I'm. Depraved the son of Sam in a frying pan. But can you guess who I have? So. Apparently one of his. Callers may have. Been like Son of Sam, oh. Interesting. That is a speculation that had happened. Yeah, yeah. Definitely intriguing.

2:19:36 Alright, but yeah, like after a while a. Lot of these calls stopped sounding like they're trying to apologize and they are starting to sound more like they were bragging about what they did and you know how. Serial killers or murderers, you know, you know, you know, they just want. Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking about. Yeah, it's. Just like they want, they want people. To know what they did and a lot of his. Friends started to drift away because. Like, like I said, he will play these tapes for them and then they just, like, be worried about and like, are you OK, dude? Like you're listening to these tapes like every day, and these the stories that these people are telling you. Like, imagine.

2:20:27 Imagine, Brittany. Imagine. Like when we were recording at your apartment and. I just be coming over with these. This whole thing of voicemails of people is leaving these confessions to me and we just be listening to them. I wouldn't. Ah, no thank you, Sir. What you feel like wouldn't? You be like a little concerned? About you like my mental state, like, right? I would be concerned for you, concerned for me.

2:21:07 I'd be like why? Why is this going on? Like, it's a cool thing, but you know what? Like it's well, it's interesting. I think all of this stuff is a little consuming for us. Do you find yourself spending a lot? Of time on what we do, of course. And so, like, there's at one point when, like, you know, I got sick in January. Yeah, me. I got. Cat died. Like there's a bunch of stuff happened. And I was just like, I can only do the podcast right now. And I kind of, like dropped off on TikTok, and I've been trying to get back into doing that. But this is a very overwhelming, like all of this stuff is overwhelmed.

2:21:53 Yeah, it didn't occur to me that. Like, on average now I'm reading like multiple books a week for this. I'm always researching and writing stuff and it's it's pretty much my entire life. Yeah, yeah. And and. I guess like on one hand you feel like, like people tell me that they like go to sleep listening to podcasts or listening to Tick Tocks or the YouTube channel. You know that we have for it and things of that nature but other times it's just it's really stressful and so I don't I absolutely. And so that's such a high compliment because I do that to other creators stuff, right? Yeah, same. And people like the.

2:22:38 Identify with him getting overwhelmed by that like he it's it's so. Much show that like recently I was talking to somebody online and he was like, oh, he wanted to like know more about the job. And I was just like, I don't want to talk about the job, no, the. Job is enough. For me that I talk about it while I'm doing it. I don't want to sit here and talk to crime with you in my free time. Can we talk about anything else please, like and I didn't realize that that happened until that moment for me, that I have created a very strong line in the sand of through crime life.

2:23:19 Rest of life in order for me to be OK with this. And for my mental health to be great, so you can, so you could say, saying absolutely. So I think maybe his issue was that he. Did not create that line in the sand. He did not, because this was his entire fucking life. And that's unfortunate, because he started to do. Something good and he was intrigued by by what people would say and what they would do but it. It was just like it. Just started taking. Over his life. So it's a lot. After a. I think it went on for. About 15 years.

2:24:04 Yeah, the his this line that the phone number that's on the on the flyer, it stayed up for about 15 years. Right. It was active until he died. You did say that he passed away and not his widow runs things or runs a. It's probably not as intent. It's all about the apology line. It's the podcast. It's all about this, this apology. He passed and. OK, I had. A year? Hold on a second, he passed in. 1995. So yeah, it stopped like basically when he died and but they had a consistent amount of people doing it for that long, people calling in.

2:24:56 Oh yeah. Oh, absolutely. Like, oh wow, there there are people calling in like basically every fucking day. That's that's intriguing to me. So there. OK, there's this type of. I don't know. I'm going. To say it's a. Conspiracy type of thing, but it was kind of a conspiracy type of thing when this was going on. So he had this caller. I guess they would. Called regularly, maybe 00, they created a friendship of. Soar and his name was Richie. And apparently Richie was a some type of serial killer who wouldn't go after gay men, and that was a thing people did. Yeah, gotcha.

2:25:46 And, you know, learn about the clubs. And stuff and then murder them. But. What I. Got from this article. That I was reading. Is that Richie ended up being a fake? A fraud like. OK, that makes. Sense you just want the. Attention, yeah, like is there, were like. I know he, like, he got a lot of pranksters calling in, you know?

2:26:29 Side note, still creepy. Of course, you know you got a lot of people calling in, like being silly and shit. But this one? But he thought this was real. But this was just somebody's fantasy. Absolutely. Absolutely. And there. Were there were a couple calls from child runaways as well? Is that, you know, they're calling in like a pause, just get their stuff off their chest. Yeah, I'm sure they felt sad. I mean, just not sad but, you know, guilty. Yeah, yeah, it was. Pretty bad. But so I was going, I was going to go into his murder. Not his murder. His death. Because he didn't get murdered, obviously. He kind of he did get murdered. OK, so. He was killed. When he was scuba diving and he got.

2:27:14 It was. A. It was a hit. Hit and. And run Jet Ski operator. So someone was someone was riding, riding a jet ski and as they ran over him when he was scuba diving or I guess yeah and. I That's just a terrible way to go. First of all, wow. Yeah, that's wow. So I got for you on that one. Wonder how often that happens in the world. God, I have no idea.

2:27:57 But I don't want it to happen anymore. But yeah, he he got so there was like a. A thing going on after this happened and they'd asked his, you know, his widows and like, So what if this, this jet ski person had like called the apology line And you know what? I mean what they called. After they hit, you know, murdered him and they, you know, had said, you know, I ran over this person with my jet ski and I ran away, didn't stay at the scene and. And I feel terrible about it and I'm pretty sure they died because of it.

2:28:37 And and you know what? If she would have, what? If she heard. That and she got that, you know, that call. She heard that call. Like, would she be able to forgive this person because they called in. What did she? Say I think I do hold on, Probably not. I don't think she. Said that she she would. She would not for. She would forgive them, the person because, you know, that's the apology line they've forgiven. That's another thing.

2:29:31 I have a I have a very small. List of things of of people who have done something bad enough to me that I actually really want. Like deeply want their apology for it. And the problem is I don't know if it's enough. Like I don't know if an apology would. Even matter at that point. Something that big it's. Yeah, it's so. I do have a quote from her from from this this this interview that she you know where this question that someone gave her and she says that the person knew it was an accident and that it wasn't his fault. He could have.

2:30:18 He couldn't have predicted A scuba diver were surfaced at the that moment right in front of him. Maybe the person was really young and gave into the impulse to run away rather than stay face things. I'm sure whoever they are, they are sorry. So that's what she says about that. But the like I said, the apology line, it's still up and running. I I do believe it's a different number, but it's still a New York number, New York area, New York's. Saturday City area code, the 215. Whatever area code. If you want to give them a call, look them up. If you have something you get off your chest. Maybe we'll hear you one day on their podcast because there are quite a few episodes and they do have a YouTube video the. YouTube channel too with.

2:31:18 The the podcast on it. And they they give the number out on there just in case people want to call and and you know, get their confess to whatever they need to confess to if you don't want to go to a confessional to talk to a priest. But. You know I did I I. Did find it's like really interesting to look into just. Because of, like, So it started off as like, I'm not even sure if he thought he'd get a lot of calls in the beginning, but then it just freaking exploded.

2:32:02 Apparently a lot of people in New York had a lot of stuff to get off the chest at this in the 80s. I wonder why? Because 80s, eighty and it's just like. God. Like I met Okay. So it is going wrong. It's going on today, but you know what I mean. Just like. What if there was a serial killer out? There today. And they're just like, you know what, this is starting to weigh down on me and I just need to talk to somebody about this without repercussions. And this is that was a way.

2:32:44 This is a way. You know, it's funny. He did get calls from the cops to like hand over some of like I think one of the tapes because of a I think it was a Ritchie thing. I'm pretty sure it was a Ritchie thing because he said it sounded like the cop said it sounded like some person who was going around and doing it like it was sounded like something that was actually happening in in the vicinity, in the area. So you know he what? What Alan did was that he went on a radio station and and he played this tape. He's like, so he he told the cop he's like, I can't give you the tape but here's what I'm going to do. I want to play this on the radio and if you want to hear it again just listen to the radio.

2:33:39 So that's that's that's what he did and. Like and like he he's, he played. This for a lot of people, and he is, he wrote. He wrote his own fan magazine about all the about all the calls that he received, and I'm pretty sure he transcribed him on to this magazine, which I cannot find for the life of me. Way out of print the. Probably magazines are exactly making the notes to. Money. Look here, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go on. Archive.org and then check it out and check and see if it's on there. That might be the place to find it, because they're like there's another book written about it and something about the. Apollo it's titled something Apology. I don't know.

2:34:30 Apology line. But well, when I. Just googled it. When you first brought it up, it said the apology project. That might be it. Yeah, I guess that's. What they referred to it as. In the beginning, like a project? Yeah, yeah, it was our project. Interesting. But yeah. That's what I got. Any. Thoughts. How would you feel about? Well, you said you wouldn't do it. You wouldn't call. You don't have anything to confess that's that bad. What if the things that keep? Me, the things that keep.

2:35:12 Me up are things that I didn't say. To the people who are no longer here. Sorry to bring. You down, I mean. But like I mean that could be so. That. Like saying that out loud doesn't help me and it doesn't help the person who I didn't. Apologize to before they died, you know, I mean, like. My list of regrets is. Weird, no? I get it, yeah. I get. And most of the time, I tell people how I feel about them. Almost all of the time this. Is true.

2:35:53 So. Well, that's just it was a conscious decision I made in learning about like, communication and stuff as as a woman and deciding that I wanted to present myself in a certain way. It's weird because. People meet me and they instantly feel close to me because I am so open to them about a lot of things. But they're things that I don't consider to be like secrets. Like I I'll mention like randomly that I was like adopted by other family members and they're like you told me about your adoption and I'm. Like, I don't care. 34 It's not that exciting as the story goes, but they feel like I've they feel like I have really like Expressed. Myself deeply.

2:36:48 And it's it's weird, bizarre stuff. That people close to me know that probably wouldn't trip other people up, but has me like, oh, this sucks. So I don't know. I just can't. I don't know. I don't think I've done anything bad enough to even need to be on there. Yeah, I don't know. I. Do feel like it's a good. Like something that needs to be around, even if like the cops. Are involved with. It, but it's like and people don't feel like comfortable going somewhere else, like talk to a therapist or something like that. It's like. You know, a lot of people don't have people.

2:37:31 Yeah, exactly. And I remember years. Ago when the The Free Hugs project happened in New York, a friend of mine. Was was working there for a while and actually said that it was overwhelming for her. How many people like would give her a hug and just saw? She said there are so many people who are touch starved and would say like this is the first time that I've like touched another human being in. Months. God like. We are a strangely. Separate culture. It's part of our culture to be like isolated. Almost like other cultures.

2:38:16 Like believe in like having multi generational houses and things of that nature. I would say that your family's probably a little bit better. You could visit the grandparents, like weekly. Yeah, things of that nature, but A. Lot of people don't. I mean, I don't. I just have me and my friends. I mean, my closest living relative is 40 minutes away. But we don't. Really talk that much. I should call them more. A lot of people are. Like that in this country and like we believe that like as soon as you turn 18, you move out and then you're grown up and you're by yourself. And like other countries don't do that. They stay together forever. Yeah, yeah. Then they bring their.

2:38:57 Parents into their house and then the kids. Grow up with their grandparents and so you maybe you don't feel as alone or you don't need something like that in another place because you have that that. Support in your life. That's very it's. Very nicely said, I like it anyway. Thanks a bunch for being. And yeah, thank you guys for listening this week. Stupidity for extra long episode because I don't know. When to stop? It's all good. Have a good weekend.

2:39:37 Bye, bye.