Episode 35: Katherine Knight: Cannibal? Murderer? Really Bad Girlfriend? YES.

0:21 Hey everybody in Hero Killer country. My name is Brittany Ransom and. My name is Brian Joyner and this is When Killers Get Caught, a podcast of odes, deep dives into the lives and psyches so the killers we love to learn about. Each week Brian and I find a true Crime Story that resonated with us. Then I discuss one well known or lesser known killer and go deep into their childhood lives, methodology, and most importantly how they got caught. And then we get a little spooky and we'll learn something about cryptids or the supernatural. And just before we get in, just to let you know, our Patreon is live. There are 4 tiers from 5 to $50.00 that offer lots of things like being able to listen to us report the podcast, or playing games with us on Twitch, or just getting a free 30 minute podcast about conspiracies. Yes, it's all fun and games over on Patreon. It is fun and games on Patreon.

1:10 You can support us by going to patreon.com/when killers get caught and you are always open to check out our merch at www.whenkillersgetcaught.com and I am slowly merging it over to the Facebook page which is also searching when killers get caught and the podcast is now available to listen to on Facebook. Look, you getting us everywhere. Yeah. So listen, if you prefer to listen to on Facebook or look at things on Facebook, absolutely they will all be there. That happened this week that I was able to guess Facebook's doing some new changes. Yeah, that's really awesome. Though next it would be freaking Twitter. That'd be great.

1:51 That would be awesome if everything was all integrated. But so before I start into this week in true crime about what I want to talk about, I want everyone listening to just hear me out. Don't get mad when I say the name of this because I want to talk about missing White Women's Syndrome. That's the specifically in the news right now because of the Gabby Petitto case. And what missing white women's syndrome is, is the American media's propensity to specifically cover with just like a ferocious ferocity. Like the mainstream media in this country absolutely loves to talk about missing white women, and it's to the detriment of missing women of color.

2:42 There are a disproportionate number of teenage black girls who are being kidnapped across this country, and they are virtually never reported. There are a disproportionate number of indigenous women across North America that have not been reported and it's been such a big deal in Canada that they are now launching like investigations into the coverage and the police, whether they have been doing the right thing. There is an entire highway in Canada that they refer to as the Highway of Tears because there have been so many indigenous women who have gone missing in that in this area and it crosses roughly 75% of the the continent or sorry, that country on our continent. And this is really important because, like I said, so many of the people.

3:30 Who need to be reported are not being reported just this week alone. It wasn't until Jelani day at his mom spoke on TV about the fact that she had been trying to get coverage of him missing put on mainstream news since he went missing on August 24th. This week he was he was found technically September 4th or September 9th. Yes, and a river in Illinois. But they didn't like. I guess there was no fire behind the Emmy until everyone publicly was like where is he? You found a body?

4:18 Do the freaking cord or. Like Oh yeah, we found a body, blah blah blah. That's right. And so of course once they do it, like days after this is everywhere on Facebook, TikTok, Twitter, all of a sudden we have a positive ID and it's been 3 almost three weeks since they found the body. I mean their situations. Like Lakia Edelston, Eggleston. She was 8 months pregnant when she disappeared four years ago in Baltimore. There's a young girl named Keisha Unique Jacobs. She's been missing since 2016. She'd be 26 years old.

5:02 Now. There are a host of families who are asking just for similar coverage of the people who they love. And I have been getting messages in my inbox on TikTok for an A very long time with people asking me to cover missing cases. And so I asked on Facebook, I asked on YouTube, and I asked on TikTok do you want me to cover these cases? And I got to be really honest with you. I don't know if people are prepared for this, but I have absolutely no intention right now of covering whatever the new hot story about the missing white women is, because I feel like there's already enough attention. You got your CNN and every other major news source doing this, so I am going to start covering missing people every Monday.

5:49 I'm going to try and do more than my normal videos so that I can get a bunch of them up because literally there are at least 50 different people in my inbox at any given time requesting can you talk about my friend, Can you talk about my cousin? Can you talk about my sister like there's so many? And I I got to tell you, I'm going to say that I'm going to start specifically discussing women of color and indigenous women first, because I feel like there is a gap in the reporting. Absolutely. And this is not to say that anybody's missing relative is less important. But until there is fair coverage, those of us who are are talking about things in the media on alternate forms of media have to cover that gap.

6:39 So I hope I didn't make anybody too mad. People get real angry when you start saying the words white. And women on the Internet. But you know, that's. What we're here for anyway, like you, you and me, that's what we do this podcast for. We we cover that gap of people. It really is true. I have been doing a seminar this past week on marketing and one of the people in my seminar hit me up. He's from the 30 Minute podcast. He actually wanted to know if we wanted to be on his podcast and talk to him. So maybe we might be on another person's podcast. But he specifically said that he was watching a master class and they were discussing the lack of people of color who specifically discussed true crime.

7:21 And I wasn't aware when we made this podcast that there was a deficit in this. We've gotten a couple emails that were like, yay, you guys are woke. We really appreciate it. But like I said to you the other night when we I called you to tell you about that, I was like, I don't know how to be any other way like. We're black people. We're going to talk about black people stuff. That's what happens. Get 2 black people in the room over the microphones. Come on now, is what? Happens is what we're going to do. So I just, I feel like it's some of that people need to be aware of and think about that the media that we are consuming is being curated by certain people and those certain people care the most apparently about young white women between like the age of like 16 and like 25.

8:08 They seem to be the ones that get the most attention. And that's unfortunate because I'm sure there's an elderly white woman who's gone missing who could probably use the the media attention, you know, but we don't, we don't care about elderly people in this country. But that's a whole nother conversation. Not going there today, but I'm going to turn it over to you, Brian. What is your story this week? My God, well, thank you for all the information. So Speaking of white people, is this another white? Is this a missing white person? No, no, no, no, no Okay. So this is headlined as teenagers are charged with planning to attack a PA school. Was this the two boys who look like they're about 10 years old?

8:50 No, no, OK cuz they were that was were mess. So this is a four teenagers. They're trying, they they want to, I guess attack a school, their high school. OK And remembrance of the Columbine, oh Jesus. Which will be turning 25 years old when they were playing the attack. That's ridiculous. Oh my God. So they planned this attack for 2024. Was this happening in Pennsylvania? Scranton, PA Oh Gee, why is it always Scran? What is going on in? No fucking idea. Scraton's boring sometimes. Maybe that's it. The only thing they got there is the office. And you know, it's just. And it wasn't even filmed there, though I know they literally filmed one like. We have the Electric City, OK?

9:33 They have the Electric City sign and everything, cuz when I did a story, I did a story about this woman who was taking pictures with dead bodies. She was like a mortician and it was from that region and people were upset. She just thought it was cool. So she was taking pictures of families without their permission. But so these kids. So it was it's four kids. Two of them were 15 year old. They're being charged as adults. The other two were being charged with just juvenile charges. But yeah, it's they were trying to attack Dunmar, Dunmore High School and Scran. I'm guessing that must be their school. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

10:16 This is. And it says that one of the girl's mothers said that the total police that her daughter was obsessed with Columbine and like as a parent, see, I can't say anything about that because I was like 12 years old reading about serial killers. Okay. Yeah, but what kind of obsession are we talking about? Like are you, are you trying to like, I just want to know everything about them. Yeah, that's the that's when this started this that is now what we have started when I was like 1213 years. Yeah, no, I mean same thing with me and paranormal. But like I also was into the paranormal too. I started reading ghost stuff.

10:58 But like, come on, like if that's the only thing you're obsessed with Columbine and or shooting and stuff like that. I guess the question is like how do you know that your kid is just like casually interested in something cuz you know, like little kids get into like dinosaurs, they know everything about every dinosaur, right? How do you know that your kids like into murder like that? Or your kid is thinking about doing a murder like I don't know what the. They start mentioning, they start mentioning it a lot. I mean like, OK, for example, how did they know that this was happening? What did they find? So what they found was, hold on, I don't know how they found.

11:40 I think they found things they were making so they could do this. Oh no. So I I read they found a Molotov cocktail. They they found a bonus for a bomb. Oh, they were trying to do it bigger than Columbine because Columbine did not have explosives. Yeah, they they had plans written down for making bombs and stuff like that. See. And then I'm gonna also tell you that when I was 14, I read the Anarchist Cookbook. Yeah, because I was like, why not? And it was in my high school, my my librarian didn't believe in banning books. She didn't believe that anything was bad to know. But, like, now I feel like I don't know how I feel about that. Yes, I'm.

12:21 Guessing they they found this stuff in this one in one of the girls rooms, or in in our home or whatever. Thank goodness for a snooping Mama. I know, right? Hey. But goodness gracious, they said. They didn't believe there's like an immediate threat right now. Since when's the anniversary this? Is in 2024, but Jesus, they were planning. Yeah, 2024, That's when they planned the attack. So Lord, yeah, okay, I can understand why the cops were like, well, they're just really stockpiling stuff for three years from now. Wait a second. Two of them wouldn't have even been in high school anymore. They still don't. They still teach this kind of stuff in school, or they learn about this kind of stuff in?

13:03 No, I just mean that if two of them were sophomores 3 years from now, they would be out of high school, still about to do this attack, and the other two would have been seniors. Or maybe they had planned to. Get held back a year seems like a weird plan. I know, I know. Because everybody. I don't know why. Why would you? This is weird. This is weird and stupid. I guess they had kind of mad about. It Yeah, I guess they had a list of targets that they they wanted people that they wanted to target. People aren't even there anymore. What if the teacher you hate gets transferred? One of them was the principal. Yeah, what if the principal decides to move to Wisconsin Now you can't kill him, your revenge plot foiled.

13:49 I just. Like. Like, I read it in a like I read the headline. I was like, oh, no, it's really impulsive. So this is very intriguing. Yeah, Because I would understand if they were like, we're going to kill Principal Skinner next week. It's the only one I can think of off the top of my head. Building. But to say we're going to kill Principal Skinner 4 years from now. All right, get ready. Yeah, get ready. You don't even to go see him in the hall. You don't even know, son. My God, you don't know. We got prepared for you. Just wait. Jesus, you better hope it's not a leap year. I'm done, Okay.

14:31 That's what I got. Kids being kids. And sometimes kids are scary and think of scary things. Kids are absolutely scary. But. Goodness gracious. This week I'm bringing it back to Australia. We are discussing the first woman to get a life sentence without parole. She only killed one person, her partner John Charles Thomas Price. But what she did was so barbaric and disgusting that the government felt compelled to put her in prison for life when the average time a murderer spends is about 25 years in Australia. You and I were both alive when this happened. We were in middle school, and you may recall that it was global news that Catherine Knight scanned her boyfriend and tried to serve him as a dish to his children. Today will probably frustrate you, but not for the normal reasons.

15:39 Because by the end of this, what I think I'm going to tell you is that misogyny and the confining nature of masculinity are why she was able to get away with abusing every man she ever dated. And had these men had felt the ability to report her, perhaps somebody's life could have been saved. Okay, I feel frustrated already. Let's go. And so let's talk about who she was before she became the cannibal killer of Aberdeen.

16:21 So Catherine Mary Knight was born October 24th, 1955, to parents who'd gotten themselves into a pretty big scandal. Her mother, Barbara, was married to a man named Jack Ruffin in Hunters Valley in Aberdeen. It's spelled ROUGAN, and I want to say Rogan so bad, but it's wrong. It was in Hunters Valley in Aberdeen, Australia. She was having an affair with a man named Ken Knight, and both Ken and Jack worked for the same slaughterhouse. Oh, isn't that lovely? In fact, Ten was a pretty good guy, except for the whole stealing your girl situation that went down. Boyfriend #2.

17:05 They all hung out together. Jack and Barbara, along with all the other people. Slaughterhouses in the 1950s in this area were pretty common. It was major unskilled. Well I would say unskilled labor jobs, but non education based jobs. What do you call those? I don't know. When people aren't trade, there you go trade. So what do you mean not education based? So you don't go to college to get this job? Yeah, but you do still need to learn like how to do. Okay, you go to trade school, right? So right. So these are trade based jobs for mining and pretty much manufacturing and working in slaughterhouses. Pretty common back then, but they met in the bar and Ken flirted with her in front of her very drunk husband, but he was too drunk to realize now. Barbara and Jack were high school sweethearts and they had four kids, two teenage boys and two younger children, and she felt trapped in marriage that she entered way too early. She never even considered divorce because it was unheard of back then.

18:05 But an affair? No problem. People were always having affairs in Aberdeen and Ken was there and he liked her. So one night when they were all drinking, Jack got taken back home because he was wasted. So Barbara went home with Ken instead, and then they ignored each other in public. Just playing it off. Yep. Made sure that they never interacted again in public. But one day she was home and Jack saw a bruise on her thigh that he thought look like a handprint. And he beat the ever loving crap out of Barbara and threw her out of the house and all of her stuff with her. You didn't ask her where it came from. You just assumed within the within a day, the entire town knew. Now, mind you, the town had about 1500 citizens.

18:48 And so she moved into Jack's very tiny apartment that he got from the job. It was it was bad. Bad enough that like her teen boys would spit at her in the street if they saw her. They sided with their dad wholeheartedly. The two youngest kids were sent to go live with an aunt in Sydney, roughly 200 miles away. And so Ken and Barbara left, and they went to a city called Marine. He got a job at a slaughterhouse there. Barbara got her divorce, and she also lost her friends and her family. And her kids, I mean. That's what happens when you cheat. One week after the divorce was approved, she got married to Ken.

19:29 She had two boys within the same year, which means those back-to-back pregnancy. Those back-to-back. Oh goodness. And she pretty much walked from a man who didn't really love her into the arms of a man who didn't really love her, but was also a hardcore alcoholic. So you downgraded. She downgraded. Barbara was aware that cheating again meant that she'd lose her children, so she was just gonna try and stick it out for Ken. But Ken was kind of awful to her. Specifically, he was very demanding sexually. And if she would deny him, he'd attempt to beat her into submission. And when that stopped working, he would pretty much chase her around the house and rape her, sometimes 10 times a day. Oh.

20:12 My God, so when Barbara found out that she was pregnant and it was twin girls, she was so happy. Now she had like some allies in the house. So Catherine and her sister Joy were born in Tannerfield, NSW. Joy was a tomboy who very quickly hung out with the boys in the family. So Catherine ended up being her mother's only friend. She was a pretty normal kid in the midst of a toxic family. Cam was very strict, hyper conservative. The kids were frequently whipped for any bad behavior. But Catherine learned very quickly, and she was never whooped for the same thing twice. She actually learned very early how to deal with her dad's intensity, and she began to idolize him almost. She treated him like a God, which hurt Barbara's feelings because she was like, Dang it, we were supposed to be besties and now you're on his side.

21:12 Kids always flock to the dead for some reason. I don't know why. Well then Jack died in 1959. Catherine was four years old, so ex-husband dies and the two older boys move in with Barbara and Ken. They very quickly adapt to Ken's intensity and the loathing of their mother. They already viewed her as a whore, and they also viewed all women in this way. They pushed their luck a little bit too many times in town though, and they got blacklisted from pretty much every town event for being creeps. They saw Joy as one of the boys which left Catherine to be sexually groomed by her brothers from roughly the age of 4 to 14. Catherine thought that this was just the way men are because her mother had been telling her stories about being raped by her father since she could remember.

22:08 Like at one point, Catherine asked her mother. What do you say if you don't want to do those things? Say fucking no, well, her mom responded. Just let them do what they want with you. It's easier that way. You say no. Do you kick them in the balls? Did they try to do anything else? There you go. Listen to Brian. Yes, before Catherine was even a teenager herself. All four of her brothers were molesting her. She started trying to find ways to not be in the house, and she had an uncle named OO was a famous horseman who had a farm where he took care of his rescues and champion horses. Catherine loved it there. She loved learning from him. She would rescue any injured animal she could find and bring it home. This was the one thing that she was willing to fight her father on. She didn't care that she made him mad. She was going to save this bird she found on the side of the road.

22:56 If she found a bigger injured animal, she took it to Oscar and he would take it to a vet or she would bring him to where it was. Unfortunately, Oscar had his own demons and he took his life when Catherine was 14 years. Old It was just a bit too much for Catherine to take and she was grieving really hard. It just sounds like like the only guy that was yeah, so far the only one who was nice to her is Uncle Oscar. Yeah. Decent guy in her life. Great. OK, well right after he dies, one of her brothers comes into the room to, you know, like, oh, let's hang out so he can like touch her, you know, in that subtle way. And she punched him so hard that she nearly broke his jaw and said if you ever touch me again, I will castrate. Yes.

23:40 Now the older boys heard about this and they were like, let's go see what Catherine's doing. And the bathroom was pretty sad, but she seemed pretty normal. So they just assumed that like, OK, maybe our younger brother like pushed things too far and that's why she hit him. They all learned their lesson too. One had a black eye for a month, the other got stabbed. The boys told their parents it was just from fighting at school. It's not because we were trying to touch her sister and she fucked us up. No, I love it. Thank you. I're told because that mean they would have to tell on themselves, and they didn't doubt Catherine when she said she'd castrate them because she'd learned how to do it on Uncle Oscar's farm.

24:20 I love. It so much so. On one hand, things are going pretty good for Catherine. She just learned that if you beat the show of a man, he won't put his hands on you anymore. Yeah, basically. However, after Uncle Oscar died, the family realized that the town of Maury was only putting up with them because Oscar was a celebrity and they didn't really like the very sinful Barbara, and they definitely didn't like her sinful teenage boys who kept touching girls in town. So when Catherine was 15, they moved back to Aberdeen. She entered Muscle Brook High School in 1969. She was the New Girl, and within weeks, within the first week, kids knew that they shouldn't bother her. She was this like sweet, cute redhead, pretty tall. She'd smile and laugh with you until you made her mad, and then she'd just rip into somebody.

25:09 Just verbally disrespectful. And by chance, if you put your hands on her at all, she would get you back. Like one day on the school bus a girl tripped her, and the next day Catherine cut off her entire ponytail. A boy on the bus talked about her breasts, or lack of thereof, and when she walked by him, she smashed his face into the bus seat in front of him. She was waging war on these bus rides. And then at school, the the kids would report her and the teachers were like, this doesn't make sense, like she's they're saying that they like she beat them up, but she's sitting here just looking chill. And then essentially in these little meetings, the bullies would admit that they had provoked her.

25:53 And even though her retaliations went from zero to 100, the staff pretty much was like, well, you don't want your teeth knocked out. Leave her alone, I mean. Yeah, pretty much everybody in the school took that position. Her peers respected her. The younger kids feared her. Is a good. Catherine kept a knife in the fold of her skirt at her waist. It was so she could grab it if she needed it. But it was close enough to her body that no male teacher, who were the predominant gender of the teachers at the school, would ever touch her to look for it. And she stabbed a boy at school one day. They couldn't find the knife, so they couldn't prove that it had been done.

26:34 So they sent home a little behavior letter. This happened a lot. Now Ken would get those letters and he would say, did the boy deserve it? And Catherine would say, yes. As far as Ken was concerned, his daughter was defending her honor from these fresh boys in town, which is kind of funny because he never made the connection that his own sons got rocked by Catherine as well. Just kind of left Catherine and just, you know, get her education and not be bothered. Since she was a farm kid, nobody really expected her to do well in school, but she did all right. She was on the path to having a pretty good life. And then her favorite teacher gave her a failing grade. She sat through his whole class, just Stony silent. And then after the bell rang and the other kids left, he walked over to her and he was just like, what's wrong? And she threw the paper at him and began screaming him. And then she grabbed the knife out of her waistband and stabbed her teacher.

27:37 She probably would have killed him if he hadn't punched her. And it was the kind of punch that knocks you on your ass. And first there was a moment of silence. And then Catherine just began wailing. Just screaming, sobbing. Now he was a good teacher. And he he didn't mean to punch her like a grown man, but he was in fight or flight mode. So he goes over to her and he leans over her and he's like, Catherine, are you OK? And at that moment, other students arrive. To a crying girl and there's blood everywhere. It's not hers. This is why, well, her teacher was suspended. Catherine played the victim.

28:21 The school ended up deciding to do an investigation and it was all people who had never met Catherine before. And at the end of the investigation they were just like you've been letting this kid just run around and rule your school. She is the problem here. They reinstated her teacher with all his back pay. They allowed her to school to go back to school if she agreed. No more fighting. Apologize to your teacher and you're on probation. If you get into another like fight or stab somebody else, you're out. She finished the school year avoiding that teacher, and then she never went to school after that ever again. What the hell was the point then? So what she did the next next work day, she decides she wants to go to the Aberdeen slaughterhouse with her dad.

29:07 She wanted to be like her dad anyway, so she's just like why not do it a couple years sooner? The shift manager saw this skinny little 15 year old and immediately went no, this is not work for you. She kept her cool knowing that her dad was at work and she ended up leaving and going to a fabric factory in town and getting a job there. She was already really good at making her own clothing and so when the job was to cut cloth to size, which you really don't want to mess up on because nobody wants 1 pant leg longer than the other, her employers are pretty happy with her work. She's making enough money. She started, she moved out of her parents house. Now she found the women at the factory boring, so she would go hang out at the bar with the slaughterhouse employees after work.

29:56 And that shift manager who told her no was completely taken aback to see Catherine in the bar making jokes and threatening to fight grown men in the bar. Now she didn't drink because I think she grew up watching her father be very drunk. They were also all of the men very kind of freaked out by how sexually forward she was. And she kind of made her way through the single men at the slaughterhouse like she was so sexually forward that in some ways it was off putting from the men she was trying to date. Then in 1971 when she was 16, she applies for her dream job again and they accept her giving her pretty much the crappiest job in the place, cutting up meat for dog food. It's generally the scraps from all the other major cuts which she was too good for dog food.

30:55 The she was too skilled for it. She had watched her dad and her dad is one of the pretty much best people at this place. So within weeks her bosses started testing her and giving her more complex jobs. Once she like proved that she mastered that, they moved her to another station. Over only a few months, she met almost everybody in the factory and they were all in a rude awakening. If you thought you could treat Catherine Knight like she was a stupid. Little girl. If a man in the line raised his voice at her, she would look at him and say, we can always go settle this with our fucking knives. She was ready to. Hurt that nobody ever took her up on her offer, though she eventually did relax enough to stop threatening her coworkers and she would have fun with them cutting meat up, making jokes.

31:43 She was moved to deboning in 1972, which is one of the most complex jobs in the slaughterhouse, and I had to Google why. The boning is the process where you skin, remove the excess fat, remove the bone and any blemishes to the meat. Your job is to do all of that while trying to preserve as much meat as possible. This was where her father worked and he had earned A reputation of being one of the best people there. She was pretty hype. She was like nice. I get to work with my dad. Ken was a little salty. He had been the top for like decades because he did the job before they'd moved to Maury, and now his own kid was kind of vying for his spot. He they never spoke about it though. It was just it was a silent like. His silent rivalry, but Catherine kind of brought that out of every guy when she worked next to them. They the men couldn't take the hit to their ego that a 16 year old was better at them.

32:39 So everyone was working their hardest to try and beat her and if she was better than them then they were just trying to like not be ashamed and reach her level. So at least they were on the same level. Because of all this competition. Now in the slaughterhouse, the owners are hype. So much more meats getting cut and it's also much better. So they decided they wanted to show Catherine appreciation but they did not want to give her a raise. So exactly one year from her start date, she was gifted a set of personalized knives and a custom leather bag to carry them in. She took them to work every day at home, she sharpened and displayed them around the house. They were her most prized possession. I think that's even better than a raise. Actually, I I just want to write a little bag that says Catherine.

33:27 Look, I want one personal set of life that are nice and sharpened. Oh yes. Anyway, the owners didn't actually even need to ask Catherine to show it off. She did it on her own. And on her days off and lunch breaks, she come and hang out with her friends from different departments. Her favorite place to hang out was the pig slaughtering department. Now, unlike the cows who were killed with one blow because they're so slow, you just hit them. It's done. It's over with. Pigs were smaller and kind of wily, and it took more to kill them. Apparently, when you worked at the slaughterhouse, the sound of dying hogs was heard all over the building when the slaughtering moment happened. Lovely, Catherine thought.

34:09 The job was fascinating. There was an old man who worked there who was kind of a grump, and the only person he liked was Catherine. Some people kind of made jokes that it was like a lecherous relationship, but it seemed to just be a genuine friendship between like, a grandpa and a teen girl. She just wanted to know more about killing pigs, and so he was so happy to have the company on her lunch breaks that he would do stuff he wasn't supposed to, like killing the pigs in front of her. Or he would start killing them in worse ways because it made her happy. Or one time he skinned a pig while it was alive. No.

34:52 Yep, and that only made Catherine really interested in doing it herself. So he let her slaughter the pigs and sometimes she chased them around and like stabbed at them just to mess with them. Oh my God, we're pigs. So Catherine had gone in just like 3 years from a little girl who couldn't let a squirrel die on the side of the road to a full blown animal torturer, which as we know is one of the signs. Yes, just had to be pigs. Now this was it wasn't like this wasn't known around the facility, and you'd think that men knowing she was into that sort of thing would turn them off. But Nope, she was very consistently asked out.

35:36 She go from work to the bar and then she fought the night away. By 1972 she was stocky, about 6 feet tall, 17 and she ended up making friends with a man named David Kellet. He was 22. One night out while they were drinking, another man insulted David and David kind of stepped down. He was like, I don't want to fight. Catherine was like I do, and she knocked the guy out and she swung on him until her hands were bloody and his teeth were all over the floor. David and other coworkers had to pull him off of the man. Now everybody else in the bar was like, typical bar fight, but the bartender was like, she's not drunk.

36:20 And I know she's not drunk because I've been sending her lemonades masqueraded as another drink the whole night. So the bartender was like, this is just Catherine being Catherine, and you need to leave. The only other place that you could go drink in the entire city was a hotel that was literally across the street. So they went there. David was in awe of her. He was just like, I've never had anybody protect me. And the two began dating and David got to see what it was like to date someone like Catherine. She made wonderful home cooked meals. She fixed and improved his clothes. They had a stellar sex life that people at the slaughterhouse when the guys talked could not believe.

37:06 Apparently she had the similar sexual appetite as her father and David was happy about that, so inevitably she takes him to meet her parents. Now, at this point in time, Ken is heading towards retirement. The family had moved outside of Aberdeen to a small farmhouse. It wasn't to make money though. Most of the property had been parceled out by the bank to pay for a previous owner that had gone bankrupt. So it was just like this old ramshackle farmhouse, but Ken was just like, listen, I'm just trying to rest and chill for the rest of my life. Ken was finally not being terrible to Barbara, not because he wasn't a horrible person, but because he was too old to chase her around the house anymore.

37:49 Barbara, however, was a mess. She had spent the last decade isolated from nearly everyone, and it was definitely apparent in her behavior. In fact, at one point David went to the kitchen to grab a beer and Barbara corners him and just goes, You don't know this, but Catherine's got to screw loose and he's just like, sure, whatever. And she's like, no, I'm serious, if you if you fuck up, she's going to kill you. And David didn't believe it, though, because he'd only ever seen her beat that one guy, and she'd never been anything but nice to David, yeah.

38:31 Because you were nice to her, so you didn't fuck up. Won't wait till you fuck up. Well, they got married a couple days after her 18th birthday. It was super cheap ceremony. David was drunk because he was so nervous, but he didn't blow it. They had a party afterward. The folks from the slaughterhouse were there. The Knight family, the Kellet family. They went back to David's company issued apartment to consummate their marriage. They had sex three times and David fell asleep. Catherine was not asleep. She was sitting there thinking about all of this night comments that David's family had made that they thought that she didn't get. But she did get him. She just decided she wasn't gonna beat anybody's ass on her wedding day. Goodness gracious.

39:12 So she wanted to talk about it with David. So she tried to smack him awake, and when that didn't work, she climbed on top of him and began choking him, which woke him up. And he was very confused. He was just like, why? Why did you choke me? And she's just like, I want to talk to you. He's like, I have scratches. I am now bruised. I don't understand what's going on. And Catherine was showing him who she really was. On the wedding night. Well, So what happens next is that she demands to have sex three more times because her mom had told her that on their wedding night they had had sex five times.

39:53 And she went to beat her dad's record, which totally turned David off. And he told her he's like, listen, I'm going to go to the bathroom, freshen up, I'll meet you in the bedroom, and she's like, you better be here. He goes in the bathroom, the only door in the entire apartment that locks locks the door, climbs into the tub and goes back to sleep. Passes out while Catherine is banging on the bathroom door. Oh no. After that though, she cooled it. She turned off her crazy, as men are want to say. They went back to work where David would show up, exhausted from Catherine wanting to have sex all night long, and she would show up full of energy, ready to cut.

40:42 Animals up. She did all of her wifely duties expertly because Barbara was so depressed that she had stopped doing things. So Catherine sort of became very domestic when she was a child. So now that she is an adult, she's cleaning everything, She's fixing all the clothes, she's making him new clothes. She was trying so hard to be perfect and David couldn't really figure out what had happened with the whole choking situation. But since things seemed normal, he was just going to push that to the back and not bring it up anymore. The problem with all this is that Catherine was faking being the perfect wife, and months of doing all this stuff and not really entirely being true to herself was taking a toll.

41:34 And she started resenting him a little bit and she started like picking at him like if he was late, her big thing. And this is going to be repeated throughout this entire situation. Her big thing is she always says that someone she's dating is cheating on her. Everyone. This went on until 1975, and David got kind of sick of it. He was living in a home where his wife went from enraged to not and then back. It was super stressful. And then Catherine, for a little bit, just stopped bothering him. They gone to visit her parents.

42:17 And she kind of, I guess, thought about maybe she watched them and she wondered, like, I wonder why they've been married for so long and Dad never stepped out on Mom. And she's like, maybe that's because Barbara didn't bother Ken about all the stuff that he did. So they had a couple of months in 75 of calm until August when she found out she was pregnant and every bit of progress they were making towards this being a normal relationship was over. One night he came home to change his clothes before going to the bar and she was she insisted that he was changing so he could go me another woman. She took all of his clothes, threw them in the tub, covered them in lighter fluid and set them on fire. The Aberdeen Fire Department shows up with her husband in tow, the tub's melted, the house is full of soot, the neighbors are all outside watching.

43:15 David is mortified and Catherine is just staring them all, just staring at them like I dare you to see what's going on right now. The. Fuck you're looking at. David didn't go to the bar for weeks, mind you. He's not at the bar. He's going home and come. He's going to work and come back home. She's still accusing him of cheating all day, Every day he went back to drinking so he could just get away from her. One night he came home from the bar and she was in one of her rages while ironing his clothes and she hit him in the face with the iron. He ran to the bathroom to get away from her and she screamed and hit the door with the iron until finally she quieted down and begged for forgiveness. David forgave her.

44:08 The next day he walked into I See Your Face. Brian is shaking his head. No, I would not like. That's OK. Well, I forgive you, but guess what? Leaving the next day, his boss took him to the hospital. No one asked any questions, which is exactly what he wanted. He actually started doing what you do when you're in an abusive relationship. He started bending backward to make Catherine less upset, telling her where he was at every moment of the day, coming home early or exactly on the dot so she wouldn't freak out. One night he was 4 minutes late, and as soon as he walked into the kitchen, she hit him with a cast iron skillet, cracking his.

44:52 Oh my God. He dragged himself to a neighbor's house to get help. He woke up the next morning at the hospital with Catherine crying next to him. David told the police that his wife was alone and she was pregnant and she said she'd hurt somebody outside and she was so scared and he came home later than usual from drinking and she must have thought that I was an intruder. So you're making excuses now? Yep, great. And the NSW Police Department? We're happy to accept the story because domestic violence is sticky and they didn't want to get involved and David didn't make a formal complaint. Eventually he went home. Catherine showered him with affection. Also very common with abusive relationships. He went back to work and she was actually forced to stay home because she was getting close to her due date. But at home, Catherine obsessed over the fact that David was going to leave her with the baby. A month later, David went to the bar for a tournament and told Catherine he'd be home at 11:00 PM. When he didn't come home, she called the bar and she told and he told her he'd be home in an hour. She's like, but you said you'd be home now. And in front of his friends and her friends, he very drunkenly told Catherine, Well, maybe I won't come home at all since you're being annoying.

46:21 When he got home later, she was ready with the frying pan, but he ducked. Yeah. She swung again and missed and broke a light switch. In the darkness he was able to escape and get back in his car and drive away. God, now. David felt bad because everything Catherine was accusing him of, he was absolutely doing. Ohh what the hell? What? No, no. No, no, no, you can't do that. How dare you? He had been seeing another woman for months. It actually it started after she began accusing him. So it was.

47:05 It did not start before, but that doesn't matter because he still did it. And right after the frying pan attack he decides he's going to make a plan to be with this New Girl in Queensland. And that New Girl told him that she was pregnant too. David's at this point like I need to get out of town before Catherine kills me. Catherine goes into labor May of 1976, and David is supposed to pack a bag and meet her at the hospital while she goes there with her mom. Instead he got in his car and drove out of Aberdeen. Catherine gave birth to her first child, Melissa Ann, with her only her mother and father and sister by her side. In fact, her sister Joy just went out searching for David and she went back to the house.

47:58 Everything in his at the house was there that belonged to him, but his car was gone. His friends were like, oh, maybe he had an accident. We should check in the road. Joy's like, I don't think so. And Catherine's like, I definitely don't think so. So this moment that she's supposed to be bonding with her baby, she is just loathing the existence of David. No one really understands this very dark place where Catherine is right now. She goes home with the baby and after several weeks of being alone with Melissa, she starts just walking the streets in a blind rage with a baby and like a stroller.

48:38 And her neighbors call the police because she is like walking with the stroller, just banging it around, like completely gone. So the police pick her up, they dropped the baby at her parents house, and they take Catherine to Saint Elmo's Hospital in Tamworth. Now, there were some whispers that she might have borderline personality disorder, but ultimately the hospital diagnoses her with postpartum depression. They tried to give her an IQ test, but since she hadn't read any books or had to write anything in the last five years, she was almost illiterate. The test gave an IQ in the 80s, but that didn't line up with the person they were talking to.

49:19 She was very cognizant of things. In fact, one of her doctors said Catherine Knight is a psychopath and a narcissist and you are being manipulated into getting into releasing her early. She's released seven days later. I'm gonna say that Doctor was absolutely right. He was right. Oh God. So she collects the baby from her parents and it's all calm for a few days. And one day, a man, he's a drifter in town. He just kind of wanders around transient. He's walking train tracks and he hears a baby crying and he's like, oh, well, maybe somebody's out here with their kid. And as he nears the tracks, he sees the baby on the train tracks.

50:04 This, like the train, is close enough that the everything is vibrating and he runs and scoops Melissa up to take her to town. In town, Catherine is in full blown rage mode, face red. She's so angry that she can barely speak and she's just like growling and grunting. She walks into the town general store. She grabs an axe and just roars and walks back into the street. The police were called at this point and they're just kind of watching her. She's pacing up and down the street, swinging the axe in the air. The other people are coming out of their houses watching her, which is only making her more angry, and she goes to swing the axe at somebody who's watching, and she hears Melissa crying, and it startles her enough because she thought she was sure she killed this baby.

50:58 They were able to subdue her and they take her back to Saint Elmo's, where she is forcefully medicated, and then it's almost like that crazy beast on the street is gone. They released her again, but this time Ken takes her home and he goes, we're keeping the baby, we'll take care of her until you get better, which is pretty good because Catherine was filled with revenge. And mind you, these situations I'm explaining, are happening weeks apart. So this baby is maybe like two months old at this point. So another night she goes next door and she bangs on her naval's door. These are actually the same neighbors who helped David the Macbeths.

51:42 And she's like, my baby's sick, I need help. And 16 year old Maggie Mythbeth opens the door and agrees to help her. She's like, I'll drive you to your baby, but I gotta bring my little brother. As soon as they get in the car, Catherine drops the sweet act and she's just like, we have to drive to Queensland. I have to kill David and his whore. Now for the listeners not up on Australian geography. Aberdeen is in the southeastern part of the country. I guess it's about 200 miles away from Sydney, Australia, which is what most of us around the world know. Queensland is located a nice 17 hour drive north northwest about 1500 kilometers away, which is over 1000 miles for those of us in the godless US who keep using the horrible system of.

52:28 I'd be like, hey, you got gas money then Sure, 17 hour drive. Wait, is that? Two and from or is it that's two? Oh, hell no. OK, never mind. Well, so Maggie's like I can't drive to Queensland like my my parents, and Catherine actually stabs her. It's a very shallow stab, but it's enough to scare the girl. They end up stopping at a gas station to fill up, and as soon as Maggie gets out of the car, she runs into the gas station. She tells the store clerk. Catherine Knight is going to kill me and my brother. He calls the police and then he's like, you can't go back out there, she's going to hurt you. But Catherine is threatening to kill the little boy. He had tried to run too, and he got. Scooped.

53:20 So the police arrived and they try and talk her down and that ended with the kids and other civilians safe. But one of the cops arms was slashed from wrist to elbow and he also got stabbed in the ribs while they were forcing her into the back of the cop car and she was just cackling. This time the staff at the hospital realized that David Kellett is in danger. He is the main discussion of every therapy appointment she has. She doesn't care that she permanently traumatized a 16 year old girl. It was. I'm going to go to Queensland and torture David's mother until he tells, until she tells me where he is.

54:01 Then I'm going to go kill David and his girlfriend and anyone who sees me do it. Then I'm going to come back to Aberdeen and kill anyone who helped David leave me, starting with the mechanic who fixed his car. Oh my God. So the police decide to go to Queensland and tell David. Just want to let you know your wife is committed to a hospital and she wants to kill you. I'd say leave the country. I think they thought that like, this would just prep David, but in fact it made him feel guilty. He was like, look at what I did to her. This is all my fault. So he leaves his girlfriend, who's about to have a baby in Queensland, to go back to his wife I. Don't like David?

54:44 He goes to the hospital, request that she's returned to his care. He'll make sure she takes her meds. He goes, they pick up Melissa. In fact, when they opened the door, he was worried that Ken was gonna be mad at him, but it was actually Barbara who opened the door and immediately attacks him. Like this is your fault. Screaming at him, hitting him and Catherine steps in and like knocks her mom down, protecting her husband. Yeah, I got this, Mom. I'll take care of him later. Don't worry about that. Well, they take their daughter home, but after a couple days it's almost unbearable for both of them, the amount of gossip and people watching them in town. So they moved to Woodbridge, which is a suburb of Brisbane. It was a fresh start.

55:26 Neither of them had any family there, no one whispered. David's mom comes from Queensland to live with them, to take care of Melissa during the day while both Catherine and David go to work. Catherine takes her medication, which does help. She's a stellar employee gifted with a knife. She would still get people back, like in high school, but it wasn't like before. She was free to be not perfect this time, and they had all this excess money because both of them were working. But the only time that Catherine was really happy was at the meat processing plant and on the very quiet drive back home. This went on for years, Catherine going through the motions, her medication, kind of cutting off that passion that David. She and David had at the beginning. They had a second child, Natasha Marie, on March 6th, 1980. David was there.

56:15 He held her hand through labor. She did not have the same response. In fact, what happened was that she was bored and she resented David and it started to show. Everything sort of ended the day after Natasha's 4th birthday, March 7th, 1984. She packs up everything. No words, takes the kids, moves back to Aberdeen. It was it was like it was almost like she didn't care. David still loved her, but he was kind of relieved. She filed for divorce and she took the kids to her parents house. Catherine got a small house and Muswellbrook and went back to work at the slaughterhouse.

57:01 It had been eight years and she acted like absolutely nothing had happened. In 1986, though, she was lifting a hog and she hurt her back. They rushed her to the hospital but this was a career ending injury. She ended up having to file for disability workplace compensation. She gets an apartment from the government through the housing Commission just outside of Aberdeen. She's 31 years old and has no idea what to do with her life. Melissa is 10, and while Catherine did warn Melissa about boys, she did not make the same mistake that Barbara did. But Catherine was lonely, so she started leaving the children at home at night and going to hang out with men where she meets a local minor named David Saunders. He wasn't from Aberdeen, so he gave her a chance. Because what was happening was even if she met a new guy in Aberdeen who worked at the slaughterhouse within a day, other people would be like She's crazy. You should leave her alone so David didn't wasn't in the same circle they moved in.

58:01 After a couple months, the moods were up and down. She got into little fights with him and he'd go back to his apartment and sconce and sleep there. On their anniversary. He showed up with flowers expecting a nice night. Catherine was in a mood, pacing the kitchen. She walked outside, picked up the family dog that David had bought for the children and slit the dog's throat and said if I ever catch you running around on me, this is what I'm going to do to you. David's like I'm, I'm happy. I would never. But she picks up a pan and she swings it at him and he put his arm up and she broke his arm, hitting him. With a pan, yes. And then as he's like on the ground, she proceeds to beat him with the pan until he is unconscious. For a week he didn't respond to her at all. He stayed at home when the bruises went away. He started doing some works, some shifts at work. His coworkers actually mocked him for being jumpy, and the old men who worked there were like, Nah, Nah, he's dating Catherine Night.

59:04 He has a reason to be jumpy. Yup, They they exactly. The older men knew. So what happened is that Catherine camped out of his apartment one day and as he's walking home, he expects violence when he sees her. But instead what he gets is Catherine crying and begging for forgiveness. He takes her back. Things are calm for a couple months, and then it goes dark again when David asks her why she's so upset. She's pregnant and she begins obsessing over David leaving her. So David tries to show her that he's serious about her by putting a down payment on the House. June 1988. She has her third daughter, Sarah Saunders now.

59:48 David was like, after she gives birth, it's going to be great. Nope. Catherine was back in the postpartum state and at the beginning of 1989 they are barely speaking. Catherine got her workers compensation. She paid off the rest of the house. They started fighting. The first big fight was because he came home and the baby was still in a dirty diaper. Another time he came home and all his work clothes were dirty and he was like, what have you been doing all day? She responded by going and get a knife. A pair of scissors and cutting his shirts in front of him. That's not an answer. Then she went to cut his work pants and he was like no, no, no, those are my only other pants And he goes to grab them and she stabs him in the stomach with the scissors and twists them as she pulls. Them.

1:00:40 Then she went to go get the iron and David hopped it in his car and drove away. He didn't speak to her for several days. He was like, this is the second time this woman's tried to kill me. I'm not going to give her a third chance. He only went back to Aberdeen to try and see his daughter and that's when he learned that Catherine had gone to the police and lied to them and got an apprehended violence order, which is specifically to keep someone violent away from you. What? Excuse me, this order said that he could not contact or see Catherine or the kids. What does she say that he did to her? I don't know fam. Because. Oh my God. Like I I would have just went to the police station. You see this stab wound in my stomach? She stabbed me.

1:01:27 I didn't do shit for her. Well next guy she dated is his name was John Chillingworth and she actually met him the day that they came. He came back to Aberdeen. They had worked together when she was younger, but he he was 10 years older than her and he was honestly kind of creeped out when she was coming onto him as a 17 year old. Now they were roughly 44 and 34 and he was like, yeah, don't mind now. John was not like the Davids. The first time Catherine swung on him, he ducked and he smacked the hell out of her. In fact, she threw him out of her house, mainly because she was kind of startled that he just hadn't taken the abuse. She begged him to come home the next. Day.

1:02:15 And bless her heart, Melissa. Like, what a lovely child. All she heard from her mom was that John hit her. So when John comes back, Melissa's like, you hit my mom and like gets mad at him and he smacks her too. And he's like, sit down little girl. Oh my God. Catherine gets pregnant. And John was like, maybe we should get married. But he realizes that Catherine doesn't care about being married, so he's like, bet this is awesome. Throughout this pregnancy, all the same accusations, just like the first David's. And just like the first David, John started sleeping with somebody else. You. Dumb ass. Her only son, Eric, was born in 1990.

1:02:58 His father was present and right after he was born, Catherine was a domestic queen again. John felt bad about cheating because she was just being so awesome. So he tells her the truth. She walks into the bathroom, punches the glass container holding his like bridge, breaking it. Then she walks out and punches him square in the jaw, breaking some of his real teeth too. That night he went to his company sponsored apartment and then came back to the house and picked up his stuff. He found Catherine in their bedroom. She was overducing on all of the sleeping pills in the house.

1:03:39 He drove her to the hospital, of course. Guilty for driving her to suicide, the captor for observation. For a week, things went back to normal. But this time Catherine began cheating and she planned it. So one night when when Jack came home from work, Sean came home from work, he would see it. He walked into the house, found her having sex with another man in their bed. He's just like, you know what? I'm done with this. He leaves the house, never comes back. He actually moved away from Aberdeen. Quit drinking, ended up becoming a drug and alcohol counselor and spent the rest of his life helping other addicts. John Chillingham is the only man to escape Catherine Knight with no permanent injuries and he's the last one to escape alive. The man Catherine was cheating with was John Price and the affair had been going on for a year before Catherine decided to use him to hurt her ex as their affair turn into a real relationship.

1:04:36 It was pretty good in the beginning. Pricey, as he was called in town, brought out a certain gentleness in Catherine. He knew about her past. He didn't really care. She met his two kids. They liked her. Her own children really liked him. They were like, this is probably the nicest, gentlest person you've ever dated, just like normal. After a little bit, she starts accusing him of cheating. She yells, She hits him, but he is completely smitten with her and anybody who sees can tell people in town actually try and warn him, but he decides to take Catherine in her word and he's just like, listen, you were just protecting yourself from evil man, and those men before you were weak before me were weak. They couldn't handle a strong woman. In 1993, the infidelity argument stops, and now she's mad because Price is not marrying her.

1:05:29 Now John Price had been married before and he felt like his relationship went sour after they got married. And he'd asked Catherine about her first marriage and it seemed like it was the same thing. They've been happy and then they got married and it went to hell. So he's like, why ruin a good thing with a wedding in 1995? He tries to make her happy and he says move in with me. He's a supervisor at the mine. The company gave him a really nice 3 bedroom house. She decides to keep her house and move in with him, which was great because he didn't exactly like the fact that she had animal skins and bones all over her house.

1:06:10 Anyway, things are great for a year. They live like a married couple. She starts asking about getting married again. These fights happen daily until about 1998, and then as a retaliation for fighting with him, one night she takes a video camera that he bought for her for Christmas and she videotapes things that John had taken from the trash at the mine, mainly old expired Med kits. And she mails that tape to his boss and he gets fired after 17 years. Even after he explained that all of those supplies were expired, they wanted nothing to do with him or Catherine. He drove home, gathered all of Catherine's stuff, and chucked it out the front door.

1:07:01 When she got home, she discovered all of the locks of the house were changed. They stood on the porch screaming at each other for about two hours until the neighbors threatened to call the police. She picked up her stuff, and she went back to McQueen St. John was free from Catherine, but he came up against some pushback. While he wasn't, like, officially blacklisted from the mining companies, other men knew about Catherine and they were kind of wary of dealing with any man who was dealing with her. She started hanging out with the bars again looking for him, and their paths crossed. He tried to avoid her, but eventually one night he decides to just say hi. They go back to sleeping together. The news of the two of them back together goes through town in a second, and the next day his friends show up at his new job to have an intervention.

1:07:56 They're just like, listen, we don't want to watch you hurt yourself with this woman. Either she goes or we go. John's like, listen, it's just sex. I'm not going to move back in with her or anything. People in Aberdeen actually contacted David Kellett and we're like, you need to come talk to this guy. So David Kellett meets him at a bar and shows John all of the scars that he got from the years he lived with Catherine. He even shares the warning that Barbara gave to him before their wedding. If you cross her, she'll kill you, he says. Do you understand? This isn't a joke? She will kill you. John sat there, kind of not taking it seriously.

1:08:39 Dude, you got all these people coming to you saying stay away, stay away, you're gonna die. Before John even returned home that night, David had already left Aberdeen. Just being there was triggering for him, but he had done everything he could to save John Price. John started allowing Catherine to come by his house for date nights. She would cook for him, they'd eat, have sex. She'd go home. She started pushing for more in the relationship. It would escalate to Catherine screaming at him. He'd shove her out the front door of the house, lock the door. By 2000, the harassment is just incessant. They get in a fight and he remind her why they're not together.

1:09:26 And she, of course, is like, well, listen, that's not who I'm not that person anymore. I won't do that again. And he's like, of course you won't do it again because you can't ruin my 17 year career again because I don't have it anymore. I'm never letting you live here again. This fight happened weekly. She'd scream, calm down. They'd make up. One night they were together and he told her he would never let her hold any power over his life ever again because her temper caused her to wreck things and Catherine was offended. In fact, she told him, You've never really seen me angry. She got up and started hitting him, stabbed him in the chest with a knife. He grabbed her, threw her out of the house onto the street. The blade was in one of his ribs, and it was in such a location that if it'd been about 1/2 an inch, if she'd been 1/2 inch off of her mark, she would have stabbed him in the heart in fact.

1:10:26 And then as he was standing there, he was like, oh crap, the back door is open. He rushes to lock the back door. She's there banging on the on all of the doors. He locks all the first floor windows and eventually she leaves. That is February 28th, 2000. I can't. I just can't. February 29th, he stops at the Scone Magistrate Court on his way to work and gets a restraining order against Catherine. He tells his coworkers that day at work, if I don't come to work, you need to come look for me because I think that means that Catherine will have killed me. His coworkers beg him not to go home. They're like they they at first they think that he's just like being a tough guy.

1:11:11 But in fact, he says, I'm worried that if I show, if I'm not there and the children are there, she's going to kill the kids. So I have to go back just to make sure they're OK. He goes to the house after the kids get home from school, he has them pack up, go stay the night with their friends and have a sleepover. He actually doesn't even. He spends most of the night, February 29th, at his friend's house, like across the street, just kind of watching, making sure she wasn't there. At 11:00 PM. He's confident she's not going to come. He goes back to his house. Catherine, on the other hand, spent her day differently.

1:11:52 First thing she does is she goes to his house. While he's not there, she films the kids almost as if she's making like a will, and she's talking on the camera about, like things she's going to give to the children once she's gone. Then she went to town, brought new lingerie and waited. And after she saw him go into his house, she broke in, watched a little TV, took a shower, and then sexually assaulted him. She pretty much, like, mounted him while he was sleeping.

1:12:34 He didn't even realize what was going on, like he was asleep and she'd actually hung her bag of knives above his bed. When they finished, he was loud, he was awake, and he was like, Oh no. And he actually, like, pushes her off of him, which makes her angry. Yeah. She grabbed one of the knives and stabs him between the ribs, collapsing one of his lungs. He gets up and tries to run away, but his back is an even easier target and she stabs him two more times from behind. He fell down and she sits on his chest stabbing him over and over again. Somehow I don't know if it was a rush of adrenaline. He throws her off of him and manages to get outside onto the porch before just the adrenaline wears off and he kind of succumbs to his injuries.

1:13:26 She drags him back inside and stabs him to death. Then she cleans herself off, drives into town with his car, goes to the ATM and empties his bank account. Comes home, skins him, hangs the skin from a meat hook from the top of the door in the lounge, decapitates him, cooks part of his body with baked potatoes, pumpkin beetroot, zucchini, cabbage, yellow squash and gravy. Puts 2 servings on the table and then puts those and puts the names of his children, Rebecca and John, in like little place cards on the table. A third meal is tossed in the backyard. She put his hot his head in a pot with vegetables and then she took the rest of his skinned body and arranged it in his favorite chair with his arms slung over an empty soda bottle and his legs crossed.

1:14:22 She leaves a handwritten note with a piece of his skin on it, accusing him of raping one of her daughters and his own children. Then she takes all of her psych meds that were in the Cabot, climbs into the blood soaked bed and just waits to die. Wow. So I gotta say one thing. While you were mentioning all that, the preparation for the food and stuff, my stomach did start growling. Oh no. Not because it was advertising to me. Just because I'm hungry, OK, some Chinese food. I just. It's just it was just a funny moment. It happened, well, true to their word, when he didn't show up for work, his coworkers were like, we need to go check on him. In fact, they showed up at 6:00 AM. Oh oh, they were ready, the coworker was greeted with a bloody hamper on the front door and a blood smear on the porch leading back inside the house.

1:15:24 They called the police. Police break in to find a comatose Catherine. The first responders are horrified. They didn't even understand what they were looking at the entire downstairs. The stairwell leading down there is just covered in blood. And finally, one of the other police officers goes, that's a nose, that's pubic hair, and they realize that they are looking at John Price's flesh. Later on, they'll discover that she actually stabbed him 37 times in many vital organs. Most of the men present that day quit working as cops after viewing the scene. There were more than one report of suicide, and the few who didn't quit stayed away from meat for a little bit. In fact, the police arrived quick enough to discover that the pot with his head in it was still warm, which means that they got there shortly after she finished, which also means she didn't have time to die.

1:16:28 Oh no. They also deduced that the meal in the backyard was from her trying the food and being disgusted by it. And the interesting thing was that the skinning had been done so expertly that after the autopsy, the coroner was able to kind of put him back together. Oh no, I don't. Know how I don't like that it's an awful image, but like, at least he could sort of have an open casket. Yeah, sort of, but not anyway. Go ahead, listen, skilled mortician could probably make it work. Got to cover that neck wound, though. Two days later, Catherine wakes up from her coma and the police are like, we're ready to interview you. But they kind of forgot about her mental health issues. Catherine's like, I don't remember anything from the past couple days, and if this was the first time that Catherine had hurt a man, they might have been willing to accept that. But while the police are kind of like, well, we got to wait for her to be in a better headspace, hundreds of people show up at the police station and they're just like, we want to give a statement about Catherine Knight. Everyone in in Aberdeen is terrified of what will happen if she is ever like let out.

1:17:46 So the first time she shows up to court, she tries to plead guilty for manslaughter, saying that she remembers nothing, but obviously she did it because there's evidence. The judge is like, this is the worst crime I've ever seen in my entire life. Absolutely. There is no such thing. You're not even allowed to bleed anything right now. Honestly, unless you are pleading to 1st degree murder, I don't want to hear you. I plead guilty to everything. She was arraigned on March 2nd, 2001, where she entered A plea of not guilty. Her child was originally planned for July 23rd, but it got pushed back to October 15th, 2001 because her lawyer actually got sick during that time, they decided to have her psychologically evaluated. Not to prove that she was insane or anything, but I just wanted to prove that she was competent enough to enter a plea. And that was when she was formally given a borderline personality diagnosis.

1:18:41 But in fact, some of her old psychiatrists came forward and were like no, no, no, no, We disagree. Don't do this. I'll explain why they said that in a little bit. Trying to find a jury for this trial was pretty rough. Almost all of Aberdeen knew about the legend of Katherine Knight and Justice Barry O'Keefe gave the jurors the the opportunity to back out because the the pictures of the crime scene were particularly gruesome and about 5 people did remove themselves. But of the pool about 60 potential jurors, they did find enough people for the trial. So the borderline personality situation here is that Catherine pretty much said she frequently dissociated and had been this is what she did on the night the crime happened. Her lawyer used this diagnosis to say that she was not culpable for her actions.

1:19:33 You know, I have to say this because a lot of people don't. This is a I wouldn't say it's a rare diagnosis, but it's not as common as some of the other ones we've heard. Usually when we talk about killers, we hear schizophrenic. It's a very hard mental illness to have. It's hard to diagnose. But I feel like I should just explain it because a lot of people who have mental illnesses really find the way that it is portrayed in court to be very disrespectful. Yes, Catherine did have some of the symptoms, but dissociation is not. You forgetting who and where you are and you just black out for a month. Dissociation is your mind separating itself from the information and stimulus coming in. It can affect your sense of identity, your sense of self. It affects your sense of time.

1:20:22 People dissociating report feeling like they are almost outside of themselves, watching them experience the world, They don't forget what's happening to them. It's not a blackout. You're just kind of watching and not feeling what's happening. For you, my friends who have had this, have told, who have, who have experienced it, have told me that they feel just numb and like they're watching themselves in a film, it's really hard to explain. It's like you're a third person. You're not the first person, right? But because this is such a hard thing to explain to people who don't understand, it has this aspect of her supposed mental illness, and it was definitely on purpose. In fact, one of my best friends for the last decade has BPD. And you know who this person is, Brian. But I won't say their name on air because this diagnosis gets a really bad rap.

1:21:16 People treat you poorly for having it. I have come across dozens upon dozens of articles that just are like, This is why you shouldn't date someone with BPD. It's a very difficult illness to manage and I've known three different people in my life who are managing it and are nothing like this. Yeah, I know a few as well, Catherine and. Her lawyer put on a. Whole show. So at the beginning of the trial they. You know, read off all of your crimes, Catherine begins begging to. Leave the courtroom, she cries, and she begins wailing. She has an entire fit when they bring out the photos of the crime scene and they. Actually have to sedate her.

1:21:58 Thankfully, the jury didn't care at all. If she remembered committing the crime because her bloody fingerprints were all over John's house. And she was the only person in town, one of the few people in town who could fillet a man with that much skill, and the only one with the motive to do it. The judge sentenced her to life in prison. And then? Added to her file never to be released, she was the first woman in Australia to receive. This punishment and I remember thinking at the time, all because she killed one man. Sure it was gruesome, but I read worse. But now, after researching this, Catherine Knight was a menace to everyone. In Aberdeen, from 15 years old to 46, like I get why nobody in this area wanted her there at all. So Catherine has been in the.

1:22:49 Mulloa. High security prison. Ever since, she is escorted by 4 armed guards because even medicated, they see her as still dangerous. She wakes up at 7:00 AM. She eats breakfast in the same room as the other prisoners, but nowhere near them. They walk her to her job in the prison. They handcuff her to her station, which is out of reach of all the other inmates where she assembles small intricate earpieces. She is very good at her job, actually, so good that it's the the job that pays the most in the prison and she got it because she's the best doing it and interestingly. Enough the. Prisoners call her Nana, and she often handles disputes between.

1:23:32 The women in prison before guards are called. Sometimes when they prisoners get upset with the guards, she tells them to knock it off and they do. Her word is pretty much the law under the law because people are still scared of her even now like 20/21. She is a 65 year old woman. When she is at cell times, she. She's turned her love of meticulous knife work into drawings, paintings, pottery, knitting, intricate pieces. Her artwork is so good that the prison put it up in the visitor and guard section. Some pieces have been sold to help fund programs in the prison, but she doesn't find them. She doesn't actually like the idea of people buying it because she's the killer.

1:24:13 There are people who would. Exactly there. I'm like there. Are people in the States who are like, absolutely. I will sign anything you want for some money. In the last 20 years, Catherine has never. Been given a cellmate. The prison thinks that she's still a risk, and so the only way to keep everyone else safe around her is to have these guards on her whenever she's around anyone. She's not allowed to be alone except in herself. Honestly, I agree. Like, this is one of those. Situations where I am pretty solid in what the courts did normally, we're like mad at the justice. But I'm like, no, you guys are good. NSW high five, absolutely on. Yeah, now a lot of people.

1:24:59 Who listen to this podcast often e-mail me asking for more modern stories. The problem with modern stories is that there are people who are still alive like her four children, Melissa and Natasha Kellet, Sarah Saunders and Eric Chillingworth. These are real people with who are in their 30s and 40s and they are just trying to live their lives. And not deal with this None of her kids have anything to do with her. John Price did have three children total, Rebecca, Rosemary and John. Rebecca and John. There's no mention of them in any publications. The one thing I. Did find was that John's daughter Rosemary, who was not there when the crimes happened, is not fond of sensationalism about her father's death.

1:25:47 And I found an article where she spoke about how distasteful it was that someone was trying to make a movie about him. Yeah, I saw that I was. I was looking up and I was. Like, and they were going to name it after his nickname for her. He called her The Speckled Hen. And I'm like, that's it. Term of Endearment. I don't want that movie. Catherine did appeal her. Life sentence in June of 2006. She said that it was too severe to never give her a chance to rehabilitate. Justices Peter McClellan, Michael Adams and Megan Latham discussed the appeal in September of 2006, and they rejected it primarily because. Catherine has never shown any remorse for this murder and Justice McClellan wrote in his formal response. This was an appalling crime, almost beyond contemplation in civilized society.

1:26:42 I would say he's right, and there's really no way we could ever know if Catherine has been rehabilitated. And I wouldn't risk trying. To rehabilitate her and put her around other people? No, because he even has a grandma. She could still slice and dice somebody. My God, hell yeah. One of the things that was struck. By this week's subject is how misogyny protected Catherine Knight. None of the men she ever dated ever filed a police. Report against her. And a lot of that was from the shame of reporting that they were abuse victims. I know some of these relationships. Were from decades ago, but this is still an issue today. Men are being abused by women like Catherine. Knight and we just don't talk about it and they get laughed at when they report it or mocked by both men and women alike. And I I'm just left wondering if, globally, the culture around domestic violence was different and less misogynistic, then maybe she would have been put in prison long before she murdered John Price, right?

1:27:46 Yeah, this is one of those few times. In the podcast. Where I'm not upset with the justice system, I'm more upset with society. It is the thing. I just like this. Just came up like a day or two ago about men and being, you know. In relationships with her being abused, I'm like, look, if you need someone to talk to, I will not judge you at all. Yeah, it's wrong. It's it's it's a thing men do get. And it's, yeah, it's rough, it's terrible. And The thing is, globally around the world, in the 50s, sixties, 70s, it was the same way like.

1:28:26 You didn't want to show that you weren't masculine. And sure, Catherine Knight was 6 feet and she was a very several of the books I read described to her as having a sculpted physique. It's because she was constantly lifting, having things. She was built, but not like bodybuilder built. Yeah, she was just. Like a toned type, right? She was toned, yeah. Yeah, and attractive, but like. Regardless of how tall she was. Me, it's one of those weird things, cuz in the beginning we were like, yay, rah, rah. She's beating up her brothers who are touching her. Yeah. And then I'm like now she's just beating up everybody. Yeah, I I forever. I love how the stories.

1:29:09 Like devolve into this. Like, yay, I'm cheering for this person because they have a like they had a rough time but now they're like overcoming it and then you're then eventually it becomes like them being the assaulter or like the Yeah, it's just. Well, that's the humanity and part of why like doing this podcast, because all of these people. Are human, which means there is. It's multifaceted. There is. Good and bad in everybody. Unfortunately, in this case the bad was. Very bad. It's usually very bad when we talk about these things, but one thing that we we learn is that they come from they experience some of the the very human things that a lot of us have.

1:29:54 Some of these people come from broken homes. That's pops up all the time. And our our stories or. So that's important to me because I I don't know why. This is just one of those things that's really important to me, which is just even the worst of. Us are still people, and somehow me recognizing that allows me to, kind of. Know my place. We all have a capacity. For evil, and the thing that makes us different from everybody else is the fact that we choose not to do it. Exactly. That's how we handle it.

1:30:35 We do it with it. I don't believe in in. Looking at people and treating them like they're boogeyman, this is a monster. I'm like, this is a person who did a monstrous thing. Make no mistakes. I talk about people on the tech talk all the time who kill people out of love. For other people. So never say never, I guess. Yeah, yeah. But what do you have for me today, Brian? That was a great story. I hated it.

1:31:17 Oh dude. Goodness gracious. So. This week. I was let you know that. I I get. Lost easily inside of buildings I'm unfamiliar with. Oh, like so for my job. You know, I go to hospitals and stuff. Like that, right? You have to walk through all the finding hospital hallways. Uh huh. The worst one is Hershey. That's where it is. But like when I first would. Go to a hospital. I'd get lost a couple times. But they have signs in the walls. I'm like OK. Well, at least I don't get that lost. I know which way I should be heading, but can you just? Imagine if someone. Would just would just drop me off inside of like the Winchester Mystery House. I love the Winchester Mystery House and like at night and I have no idea where.

1:32:06 The hell I'm going and all those whining in like trap doors and stuff. Listen, if we can go there, I would absolutely go there with you like. I it would take me like. Forever to find my way out of that damn. But I've been saving this story. It's been in my back pocket for. I don't know since we started the freaking podcast, I think, but this is one of my favorites. I decided to talk about it since it's getting. Closer and. Closer to freaking October. Can you believe that? My God, like I'm planning. It's what's, say, 25th. It's almost October. This. Friday.

1:32:47 Oh my God. I gotta get a damn costume. I know, so I figured. Why not, you know, break it? I'm ready. All right. So now before we get into you. Know the spooky home house? It's it's only right that we delve into the mind of its designer creator. Constructor. Yeah, whatever. She doesn't do anything, not. She just got the plans and she's hired people? Yeah, so we're talking about. I feel bad for her. Yeah. We'll talk a little bit about Sarah Winchester. Herself, she was born Sarah Lockwood Party. The daughter of.

1:33:32 Leonard Party and Sarah Burns. She grew up pretty well off. I mean, she spoke like 4 languages, so she spoke 4 languages. She went to like good schools. She was very beautiful and had a very sparkling personality. So I can't remember a picture of her, so I'm gonna say she pretty. She grew up pretty. By the way, her family is from Connecticut. Yeah, that's basically where this all started. So Connecticut, I know she didn't move West until later. Way later. Yeah. Yeah, it's a pretty. Safe visit in the fall.

1:34:12 You know this time of year if. You wanna go to New England? Yeah. New England is beautiful. Yeah, absolutely. So I couldn't find where they met, but on September 30th, 1862, Sarah married William Wert Winchester. I imagine if she was rich and he was rich. Well, there. Yeah, it was arranged. That was the time, wasn't it? Yeah. I just wrote a note. There's triple. She took no L's. Oh my gosh, he was the son of. Oliver. Winchester, the owner of the Winchester Repeating Arms Company. The creators of the Winchester right the Winchester rifle. It's said to.

1:35:00 Be the gun that won the West. So they. Had one child. Her name was. Annie Pardi. She unfortunately died about a month after she was born. A lot of mysteries have. Tuberculosis in. Yeah. I'm not sure why. It's very common. So tuberculosis was just that, Rona. Yeah, it really was. It was that Rona? Yes. It was. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. That's a poor joke. Oh my God. So of course was the run out of the. Yeah, of course. It was a comedy of these times. So William wasn't spared from the disease and succumbed to it in 1881.

1:35:50 Not a consolation. For having lost her. Husband, but she did inherit 20.5. $1,000,000. That's about 500 thirty $600.3 million in today's cash. It was the entire for chat. Yeah, she got like, no, she got half of. Well, yeah, she got. Half of the fortune. No, no, she got the whatever she's gonna say, Holy Jesus. Also, she did. That's a lot of money. That means that the. No. What? She got half. The family was worth a billion dollars. What she got half of was the ownership of the Winchester. Repeating arms company Okay.

1:36:31 So which came with Excuse me, there it. Goes my voice, which came with a nice income of $1000 a day. That is $26,852. And $0.29 in today's money. I love it. You would have been making more than I make in. A year in a day like I'm fucking sick when I. Read that I was. Like the teacher is a thankless and not paying well job. Y'all my God, they make. Like goodness. Anyway, so this means our and always were a big business.

1:37:11 Yeah, so this made her one of the. Wealthiest women in the world One of the wealthiest women in the world? What year would this have been? 18. I'm missing 18. 8118 That's when he died. So cuz I'm trying to remember when Madam CJ Walker was she was born in. 1867 and died in 1919. She was also one of the most she was like the first black woman millionaire. So and she's considered to be one of the most rich women of the time. And Sarah Winchester is more wealthy than Madam CJ Walker by a lot. Oh my God.

1:37:56 Freaking crazy. So I imagine there weren't too. Many women who had that, yeah. But yeah, not the country she's. Richest in the freaking. Yeah, 500 times more wealthy. It's crazy. And they live around the same time. It is crazy. Oh my God, I I was still sick. About it so I that's just I. Was like the whole. Round. Not flat. That's just doing me in fam, that's. So much money. Oh my God, it's almost unfathomable. It's the way that people talk about Jeff Bezos and like he makes 300. Is it $300,000 a day?

1:38:38 Something crazy? And I'm just like I don't. Know what that means? Like you're talking about a billion. But I really don't understand a billion practically. So for me, a billion and 500 million, same thing. Yeah, basically, I don't understand exactly. Yeah. It might as well. It might as well be. Monopoly money for me, yeah. Cuz I have no idea what's going on. So of course. Deeply saddened by the passing of her child and husband. They did pass 15 years, 15 years apart still. But yeah, still, that's exactly she does. When any grieving? Person of that time would do uhoh, she goes to see a medium. They were all would be so disappointed. They were all the rage back then. Side note.

1:39:33 I'm pretty sure that we had that. We had that fortune. Telling law in PA. Due to freaking Houdini. You remember when I was telling you, Remember when I was telling the story about Houdini and how he got, he kind of got fortune telling outlawed, right? Yeah. I mean, he was pretty aggressive about it. Yeah, pretty much lobbying the government. And I just remember that they were taking advantage of a very. Public. This is true. Very true. And I'm not mad at him. For it, Yeah. I'm not mad. At Houdini, because I know a little bit about the story and I feel like Sarah Winchester was taken advantage of. So this medium.

1:40:15 They tell her that the Winchester family is cursed because the guns that they made took so many lives. So the spirits that were killed by the guns were seeking vented, and in order to kind of save herself from the curse. Sarah had to build a home for not only herself, but for the spirits as well. Yeah, basically you're making money off of our. Desks, like, yeah. So the medium tells her that. The home was to. Be situated in the West where the sunsets so with her belongings and. Inheritance.

1:40:59 That she just, you know. What was that? Money is no gotten games. She didn't want it, though, to be honest, she would have. Rather had her. Husband, Yeah, absolutely. She moves from New Haven. Connecticut to San Jose, CA where she purchased an unfurnished 8 room farmhouse, the house used to. Be yeah, the house. Used to only have 8:00 rooms, only 8 rooms. I'll tell you later how many rooms it has, I was thinking. So that that that would be enough for anybody. Right, just 8 rooms. Maybe in their spirits, the spirits can have a room by themselves. And you know, yeah, there you go. It's only me.

1:41:41 Yeah, but I guess if your housing goes, they, you know, you gotta. Gotta have some. Make some renovations. So she hired carpenters, builders and laborers, and they worked basically day and night on this house. Now I like I said, I remember that I've. I've seen multiple things about this. How do you sleep? And how's your? Your That's constantly under construction. Pretty easily. My uncle, my grand uncle, he actually. Does like house flipping and stuff like that? Well, just cuz like, you know, when there's been construction or them working on something out in front of my building, I find it very bothersome. I don't know.

1:42:24 I can sleep like the dead so. I definitely noticed that. They are making sounds at like 6:00 AM. So they worked and worked on it until it was a. Seven Story Mansion. Cool, right? I didn't know it was seven stories it. Was seven stories. Oh geez. Wait, was it was 7? When was it 7 stories? Back when they first built it. Interesting, cuz it's not that big now, no? There's there's a reason why. Well, since Sarah didn't use any type of architect, the house no, the house was built pretty haphazardly.

1:43:07 Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait, wait, wait. I've seen pictures of this place and it looks. Very beautifully done. She just picked some random folks from the 1900s Home Depot. Yeah, basically. And wait, here you go. Well. Actually, she'd have. She had a plan. For like the house in. As that plan came from her spirit friends. Oh, yes. Yes. OK. Because the ghost is a good Arctic attack. Yes, yes, yes, yes. But based on how the rooms. Were built. I'm Pretty Little if you on how or on I'm a little if you on if She got all of it from the ghost. Right So we're getting that way too.

1:43:48 It looks beautiful. It is. It's a. Wonderful looking house, like I love a good Victorian. So that's. On top of the whole ghost thing, I would want to look at it just because it's pretty. Yeah, I know, right? I'll go into the specs of the house a little later. Or is it a Victorian? Am I right? I think it was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So when it was all. Said and done the. Had 161 rooms in it. Sarah was. So determined to finish the mansion. That she lived almost solitude so. No, no one lived with her. She only people that were around her were the construction workers or the workers that she hired. Well, now one thing that I did hear about her is that she stayed in mourning her whole life, didn't she? Yeah, yeah.

1:44:33 Cuz she always wore black. The black veil, she always wore black. Yep. So you know. That was, I guess, in. What honor of her husband, Yeah. Terrible. Maybe it was for her. Or maybe for the spirits that you know that's true. Out of respect for them, Yeah. I mean, I wear black all the time anyway. So I'm always in mourning as well, across from you also wearing. Mostly black. We're both in mourning for what? Who? We're mourning. Something, My goodness, okay. So that was such a dark thought. Okay, Gen. Z, Brian. My God.

1:45:14 Not. Cracking jokes on y'all I find Gen. Z humor to be it's pretty wonderful. It's pretty nice whenever one. Of my coworkers is just like talking about like I hope I can get by a bus. I don't have to come. Into work tomorrow. I love it. I think it's hilarious. I mean, we're millennials, so we kind of we get that. We get that shit. It's just super funny. It's just it's just bad that y'all a younger generation. Like, it's feeling like that. Yeah. Like, why are y'all so depressed? I'm sorry, it was like we kind of did this to you, but hope for the future. No. Fuck that shit. Oh my God. Oh goodness. September 5th, 1922. Sarah passes away in her sleep due to a heart failure. Exactly.

1:46:01 Yep. She was 83. Okay, not that young. No, no So. And when she died, all construction on the House. Pretty much stopped, right? So now let's get into the. House cuz there are some. Things I skipped over. So we're going backwards and going into the house and all the construction. The only things I know for sure is that there's a seance room and it's still there, and that it's not as many rooms there now as you said, because they recently found like the 101st room like 2 summers ago and they didn't know where, like they legitimately were, like, look, a new room. And I think that's so weird, cuz it's been like a monument for decades.

1:46:41 Yeah, yeah. Historical site, that's what I mean. Not. A monument. So it did have 161 rooms. And it was seven stories, yeah. And. There are pictures from this time I don't. Not sure. I think there are. I'm pretty sure you have. To you have to dig for them. But I know you're wondering just what's all behind those doors and those 161 rooms. Well, this 24,000 square foot mansion includes 40 bathrooms, 2 ballrooms and 9 kitchens and a St. Hunt's room. Saint Hunt's room was called the Witch's Cap. Which is where you know she would Sarah would go to get her plans. It's it's from scrolling.

1:47:28 It looks like a fancy mansion that a rich person like in today's time would own. Yeah, if this is. So how many square feet? Again 24,000. Again, as we sit in my 400 square foot apt. I don't understand what that means in real words. In real terms. I don't think I've ever been in a house that bad. Wait, I think I've. Been something close to that. But that's about it. That sounds like the equivalent of like a stadium. I maybe have to see how. Fucking Big A. Stadium is but like on. Her property?

1:48:10 She has like, orchards too, yeah. So a lot of people go there. They get. Married too, I. Went on the website. They have wedding stuff there too, and it's like, what? There's also a plantation. This is true. So true. Oh my God, so. There are also 47 fireplaces, over 10,000 panes of glass, 2000 doors, 52 skylights, 2 basements and three elevators in this house. Yeah, yeah, that's there it goes. Coal tower. There it goes. That's the only one. I just wanted to see a picture of. What? It looked like in the past and as you can. Tell she spared no.

1:48:51 Calls. No calls to spared. Some of the same glass windows were made by Tiffany. The Tiffany's are expensive. Yes, yes. Talking about $1,000,000 window panes, yes, she was not kidding when. They. She listen. They spent the money, those told me. Build a house. But they didn't say it had to be a a crappy house, right? I can still be booed. Like I got a living here too. Might as well look. Just so sad to think of her living in that big place. All along, I know. Really terrible. I'm pretty sure she had like, you know. Servants, probably servants. But still, she didn't have, like, any boyfriend. No family, nothing. Yeah, family. She. Just lived in a big old Victorian dress, but it spray with a black thing over her eyes all the time. It's terrible.

1:49:39 It's so sad. It's terrible. So inside this beast. Of a mansion there are. Also, stairways that lead to nowhere. Yep, right into the roof rooms. You can open the doors too. But it just leads you to a brick wall. I like the one that's just a straight up drop. Yeah, yeah, they're trap doors in. Spy holes, of course. Secret passageways in big rooms with small rooms inside of them. Okay. So what if what if? Oh my gosh, you could have a slumber party there. Yes.

1:50:22 I don't think they let people sleep there because when Shama Day and Ryan Bergueira went, they only got to be there at night. They didn't sleep there. I would. So I don't know if they let you sleep there, but I just. Think that would be super fun? That would be awesome. I think because of how expensive all the chandeliers and stuff are, they wouldn't trust people to stay there. I mean, it makes sense normally. Like when they let you stay at a place, it's garbage. It's very true. Like all the old, you know? Yes, sanitariums or trashed. Sure, you can stay here. They're overcoming with freaking wilderness. Why not? You can stay here all night if you want. To fancy houses with Tiffany chandeliers and windows. You may not stay here. You can do your ghost hunt and get the hell out.

1:51:06 I'm sorry that. Characterization is me, not the Westchester Mystery House. I'm sure they're very nice people, so. Like I said this. The spirits would. They, you know, they gave Sarah. Her plans, Right. And that's she got those from her little seances. Yeah, yeah. But she would also add in. These little additions like the so that. She could. You know confuse the spirits that were that was talking her and you know they were out for vengeance so you know they and that's why it moved around like she would build A room and then destroy it. There's just a lot of construction going on, Ghost. You thought this was a bathroom psych brick wall on your face. Even though ghosts can go through. But whatever.

1:51:55 Yeah, who cares? She. Really loved the number 13. Right. A lot of the things you see in her in the house. There there's a lot of 13 things, right? I've heard that during the tour they, like, encourage you to count the stuff. Yeah, like the stairs, there are a lot of stair of stairways. Or staircases. They have 13 stairs. The ones that I've I've seen pictures of are like the long stairs, which I find to be annoying. Like instead of it being a normal step distance, yeah, it's like a foot across or like 2 feet long. And what is the point So you can have more beats, more people walking the stairs? What's? The point of a stairwell.

1:52:36 That's that. Long it just has to be like horizontal stairway goodness. Art is also. Like, really tight corridors too. Yeah, if you're counting. There are also 13 bathrooms. See. Yeah, now why is she like was her her liking of 13? Cuz she liked it. I think it's the same way. Why I like 13 cuz it's just a the creepy number. That and it's just a nice. It's a lucky number. Too, sometimes it's already, Look, it's hard to be lucky. Well, yeah, depending on what culture you're in. Absolutely isn't like for an unlucky number in like China. Somewhere I actually meant to make a tick. Talk about that.

1:53:16 I forgot all about that. God. Damn it. Anyway, so in either 19 oh. 6 or 1904. I got different sources. So there's an earthquake in California. Yeah, the big earthquake, yeah, which damaged. The house causing the top three floors. To collapse. And at the end of it, they weren't built, They weren't rebuilt. So that left the mansion with only four stories. That's the seven stories. That's the big. That's the San Francisco one that like set San Francisco on fire. Yeah, that's that. That's that big. I guess it wait, I must add up some pretty. Serious reverberations of it. Was that that one? Well, that's the one that happened in 19. Okay then yes, that's just so I was like there. Was a big one in the early 1900s that like, racked San Francisco. Like everything fell down.

1:54:07 That's that one then. OK, wow. And. What city is this one in? I'm gonna say San Jose. California. OK, so San Francisco to San Jose, How far away is that? Come on. Google tell me the mile would that's 50 miles away. Oh yeah, so. Yeah, it definitely that's, yeah. I mean, it was like I said it's. One of the worst California earthquakes. But to be able to knock down buildings 55 miles away, that's intense. I mean, remember that we had an earthquake, like, years. And years ago, that was in California. But we fell all the way in fucking Philadelphia.

1:54:48 Wait, was that really that? No, it wasn't that one. But when was it I was in? School, right? I was in school then. Like Colonary Art School and 2010, 2011, I think it was there was an earthquake in California. You felt it all wait in Philadelphia and because everything was like shaking and we were like, what the hell was? That and. Then they ended class early. It was like it was an earthquake. Apparently it was on one of those fault lines that, you know, you could fill it, but I was just really, I googled California earthquake felt on East Coast. Yeah, and it. Hmm.

1:55:31 Maybe I got the wrong information. Well, no, there was there. Was an earthquake that happened on the East Coast. Yeah, because it broke the, the giant obelisk in Washington, It's, I think it's called the Washington Monument. It's, I know it's an obelisk. It's an obelisk. I listen. I know certain words. Here I am using 15th grade words, but I can't remember the name of the monument. Yes. Or is I think my 25? Dollar words, but I'm forgetting basic stuff. But yeah, it's the Washington Monument. It cracked. It's it's been cracked. It was like the made. Oh, that's like the. 2012. 2013, around the time I remember, because I was on the phone with somebody and I was sitting in my bed and the TV started shaking and I I literally said to him on the phone, is this an earthquake? And then, apparently, everyone started. Calling each other and the cell phone towers got overloaded and I couldn't talk to anybody for like 15 minutes. Yeah, and that was when I lived in Philadelphia. So that.

1:56:34 Sounds like I remember that one. Is that the same one? I know this happened in like 2010, 2011 so. That's because that's when I was in a Colony art school. That's the only reason why. I know we were there two, but we in Philadelphia at the same time? Probably fun. We didn't know each other. Oh my goodness. Anyway. Back to the story. I'm so. Sorry yo, we are off of rails tonight. Goodness, the man is when we start the podcast late. This is. True, late in the day, we're all wound up. So the mansion was showed. Shortly after Sarah's death. Like a couple months after she died, the mansion was sold to John and Main Brown.

1:57:17 Like in five months after her death, John opened the house to the public for tours. I thought you were gonna tell me that something bad happened to him. No, I was ready for it even. Our boy Harry Houdini was there. To take it, check it out because he was on his spiritualism tour. He was there to prove that there were no ghosts, basically, that the mediums were bullshit. Basically, he was, you know, he was there to expose. Spiritualism for the fraud it was, anyway. He didn't know what to make of the house, and like he walked away with like more. Questions than answer. Because it was just like a weird ass house to him. And he gave it the name.

1:58:01 The Winchester Mystery House. Really. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. What did he He gave it that moniker. Wow. I never knew sorry. And then went with that Harry. Houdini. That's for boy, that is. My boy. God damn it. That was just a personal joke between us and Hams. That's pretty much it so. Over the years since. Since the. Mansion became an attraction. Visitors and staff have reported. Encounters. Yes, like footsteps when no one's in there in the room.

1:58:42 Strange voices, doors banging, strange lights, doorknobs turning by themselves just playing creepy stuff. The worst part about like a door banging, like here, small apartment, The door closes and I'm like, Yup, there you go, that's the ghost. You're in that place. What door is banging? What direction do I even go towards? You just let it go. You gotta just let it go. Yeah, imagine it, Echo. You just gotta. Let it go. I imagine being the. Security guard there would be rough, yeah. But you have to have one, yeah. True, this is also a great. Place for mediums or psychics to come. Goodness gracious, gotcha.

1:59:24 Yeah, psychics to come and put their two cents in. Test it out. Yeah, I'm sure they all experience. Sarah Winchester. Ohh, I'm sure they do. Everyone talks to Sarah. They you know what my hope is. I hope she. Passed like I hope she passed on to whatever ohh I got you afterlife that there is and she. Really isn't there at her house? Just walking around sad. Yeah, 100 years later. Goodness. But they have said. That there are. Spirits there at the house, and one in particular is Sarah Winchester. I hope not. The Hall of Fires.

2:00:06 Is a good spot. To visit if you want to experience something paranormal named for all the fireplaces in it, right? Okay. I have heard of that before, so a man was in the room helping with. The renovations or to restore it when he feels a tap on his shoulder turns around? No one's there. He's like, huh, weird. Turns back around to go back to work and he feels this like hand on on his back was pushing him like very hard into his back and then he's just like, you know what? I think they need help in. That other room, so. I'm just gonna go down. The hall or. I mean, he did exactly what the ghost wanted.

2:00:48 The ghost was like, get out. There's an old worker there. His name is Clyde and he's a ghost. And he hangs out in the basement, right? That is where Ryan and Shane both did their little solo ghost thing. Ooh. In the basement, so. This mansion is. Open for tours this year. I'm saying yeah, like I could go to San. Jose, they have it. Deviates a lot. From when it was like just giving tours about it, it like nowadays they have axe throwing at the at the table. Oh no, listen, axe throwing was awesome. There's a freaking Harry Houdini escape room theme. Thing going on there.

2:01:42 So I mean, they gotta make their money. Yeah, like it's been like it's become a lot more. Than a spooky. Insanely built house. It's just like it's actually like an attraction now for people to go to and if they wanna do, I just wanna see the architecture. Yeah, I just wanna. Also, she had a thing for Spider. Webs and a lot of if you go there and look, a lot of the windows, there's a lot of spider web designs. Cool as well. But you have a kindred spirit. I know, right? Spiders. #13 Harry Houdini came to my house. Not really. I wish. But you can.

2:02:25 Go there and pretend to be Sarah Winchester. There you go, Harry. What are you? Talking about Ghost, no. Ghost anyway. That's what I got today. I like that one. Goodness, I love the I I would. Love to visit? It's still on my list of places to go. Yeah, yeah, absolutely that and even even going to. California to visit Mr. Or is it California? Is it in Las Vegas? Which? What? The mansion? Not to Mansion Museum by. Oh, you mean Zach Bagan's museum? Yeah, that museum. It's in Vegas. OK. I go to Vegas one day. You go and visit, I guess. Just to see. I don't want to see the dolls there and then look at his stupid.

2:03:09 Stuff and not has like the mirrors and. Stuff he has the. Dibic box there too, I thought. He only got to wait. I think it's there. I'm pretty sure it's there. I know that he got to open the dibic box, which you're not supposed to do. Why would you do? But I thought the man who owned. It keeps it secure like he buries. It like he has not taken it out. I'm not sure. I think I did hear that. It was either that or something that he had there. It might have been like an exhibit for a short amount of time, yeah. But. I had to look into that. Anyway, thank you guys. For listening this week, if you wanted to follow this on Socials, you got Britney Podcast. I'm on TikTok and I am Creeps for Brian. I've been trying to post more stuff on there. So yeah, check it out.

2:03:59 I got more shit, I got what is it? What am I doing? Scripted or urban legends in your state. So yeah, that's cool. And most of our socials you can. Find the links to. On our website wentkillersgotcaught.com Yes, yes and if you listened this. Whole 2 hours. Thank you so much. We do appreciate it.