Episode 29: Gertrude Baniszewski; the Monster Mom of Indianapolis

0:20 Everybody in serial killer country. My name is Brittany. Ransom, and my name is Brian Joiner. And this is when Killers got caught, a podcast devoted to deep dives into the lives and psyche to the Jurors. We love to learn about each week, Brian, and I will find a True Crime Story that resonated with us and then I'll discuss one, well-known or lesser known killer, and go deep into their childhood lives methodology. And most importantly, how they got caught and then we'll get a little spooky and learn something about the Cryptids or the supernatural. But to start us today, Brian has an update on one of his earlier story. This is yes! Oh my God! From episode to episode 2, episode 2, that was the hands that resistant. Hands that resist them.

1:01 Yes. So I think this past week we got an email from a viewer. We want to say their name or I don't know if I'm I don't know if the first name. Yeah. That's Michaela. All right Kayla. Hi. So they emailed us and told us that there is a new painting out by William Stone him right now they came out 2021 and it's cold, what remains a Google this. Now here I got re-welded pulled up. Up for you and everything. So you look at it right? I remember a Michaela's email, she said something about the doorway just looking ancient now. Just looks like there's the doll legs at the top. This just looks like a demon stare when you write it looks so freaky. This doesn't look like anything related to like the boys gone. All that's left are his shoes that might be his head on the ground.

1:50 Those legs are dying, legs are dangling. There's a battery on the ground. This is brutal fan. It's a cool picture. I mean Stoneham. Is a very good painter in general. Yes, definitely. But I just like, I saw the, the picture I'm going to painting and I was like, oh, I got to talk about this. That's amazing. That like we talked about that. What? Like January 14, I believe so yeah. No, like 87 is Shailesh month later. Look, people, when they start listening to us. They listened from the first. No ice. But here's the thing. Okay, so anyone listening now, I'm kind of embarrassed about the first just a little bit. Yeah, I remember the first time we finished. Was just like, we're done so scared.

2:35 I think I was just speaking of mile-a-minute. That's why I like Yeah, once you get into like are what our teens or stuff like that and I feel like by March we had a good Groove. Yeah, whenever we got this new setup and then we got hurt. Yeah. When once we got our groove going and we got one of our reviews says that by like three or four, we're doing a considerable battle job. The problem was there were a couple of technical snafus yes, in the early, like the ayats and people complained about like the volumes not being right? And I was too loud. I was too quiet, sometimes I was true. I'm always quite so. But yeah, so that's pretty cool. That's not even our true crime news for the week. We got loads of other stories, but before we go, there, just covering a little bit of our business basis. Our patreon is live and thank you so much to our three patrons now.

3:27 Yes, we have four tiers that range from $5 a month up to $50, and you can get everything from the wonderful conspiracy Crypt episode, which is a 30-minute episode of us discussing. In random conspiracy theories that we like, we don't like, who knows and that goes all the way up to getting to have a conversation with Brian. And I, at the end of the month, yes, you can sign up for that at patreon.com slash when Keller's got caught. And you may also check out our merch on when Killers. Get caught.com click on the store. There are stickers, hats, crop tops. Regular t-shirts. We carry things up to a 5 x because I love inclusivity.

4:07 So if you want to support us, that is the easiest way. Oh and we do have a patron goal which is that if we get 500 patrons, I'm going to say before the end of the year, I will allow Brian to take me to the Lizzie Borden house and sleep in the most haunted room and participate in a ghost story. Will even live srimant for you on Tick Tock. It'll be I swear we great. You guys check it out just by 100. I'm so not looking forward to that. I know it's gonna happen but you know. Hey, We'll see, we'll see. But this week in True Crime, I want to let you all know about a story that has been unfolding over the last few.

4:51 Well, okay, so the post poped up on Facebook August 12th and at 8:30 p.m. and it says archived content. It was incredible Crime Story unfolding now, in South City eight days ago, a woman named Elizabeth Elizabeth Cook attempted to steal a man's car and Marine. Villa, he caught her in the ACT, she ran away and she dropped her cell phone. So when the police were called, he tried to give her phone to the cops to, like help find her, right? But the cops were like, no, no, no, we don't need it. Well, I don't want it, it's her phone, right? Well, the man goes in and takes over her Facebook account begins, posting hundreds of her text messages emails photos, and they all have detailed.

5:37 Criminais Ting, criminal evident that the cops and one, yes planning and executing dozens of thefts around South City and st. Louis, we wait. So you don't even lock your phone. Apparently she didn't some of the property has been recovered. Thanks to these posts, not to mention. They contact you like he used the phone numbers to contact some of her accomplices who are like, what are we talking about? We don't know who this is. He looked up. He looked up her Google history and it had things like how to hotwire this brand name. Car. My God, what is the easiest car to steal? Wow, find something worse.

6:22 She made friends with a 62 year old ex-con last December, his name was Bobby Philips. And so apparently, Only he really, really liked her. Bobby. And three days later, he wrote a will leaving everything to her two more lays later he's dead. And so mind. You, he does have a drug overdose at her house. Huh, there's a lot of circumstantial evidence right now that she might have deliberately spiked some of his drinks. There's a screenshot on her phone of like his will, and their stuff crossed out, it has her address on it. People went to it, it's nobody's there. Now, it was like the address was like, 155 Kensington Avenue. I don't know where that is.

7:14 I'm like when I saw Kensington, I was like Philadelphia but apparently there's a lot of kensington's in the world. Yeah. And so the person who wrote this was like oh crap. I was there at one point. This guy was going to buy that house but somebody else like the old guy did on it and beat him and they're like, holy crap, like this is the house that so he posted pictures of when he walks through that property, like when he was going to buy it I'm like, what a small world that's wild. But, um, yeah, her her in a wheel thing. That sounds a little familiar, right? I was just like that doctor. We talked about that shipment? Yes. Well, he's the best part, right? So, I joined these Facebook groups, there's one called the Elizabeth Cook cork board because Facebook is taken down her official count. So people have screenshot, this is 33,000 members and them and it has a picture of a, the guy from, It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia pointing to the clerk, really? Yeah.

8:12 And they're like trying to connect the dots to all these crimes that she did. And then I joined another group. That was Elizabeth Court crimes STL cork board and this is this group is dedicated to solving the crime and helping the victims as opposed to just gawking at the Marvel that is this madness offers. If you have any information that may be helpful, feel free to reach out to admin and moderators. So they have like pictures of people that are missing or people who she's dealt with. This is just so interesting. That's just sounds wild, like, on unlike the situation with Elisa Lam. Yeah. The netizens are like solving crimes in st. Louis so good.

8:52 Alright, st. Louis, y'all are doing it. Oh my God, that's great. But yeah, I was like wow this is exciting. No, that's cool. Yeah. They're helping solve crimes. Yeah, great. Yeah. Oh goodness. This with the phone that the cops didn't want. Yeah, I guess there would have been like a legal situation with them having to like get the rights to like unlock her phone legally and warrants and stuff, but it wasn't locked male me. No warrants up in here. Know if I want a phone and someone like stole my car and they left their phone. I'm taking that. That's what he did has mine. We'll find her.

9:34 Okay, I don't think they found her. But what they are finding is where she like, Stuff she sold and where she sold it to a pawn shop. She gave it to you, still out there. I think she might run around. Listen, I was a bit cook. If you're listening, your days are numbered the citizens of st. Louis are gonna find you. Please don't listen to the spike. We're like hours away. It's all good. Oh, goodness. But what is your story right? Okay, my story is a little bit of a doozy. Okay? So this takes place this past week. It's like as soon as you said, August 12 hours, like you're not doing the same story as I am. Yeah, we cut. We've come across that before I know.

10:15 Um, but no, this one happened on August 11th. I'm pretty sure you've seen it. It's about my hometown. Oh, like a sir. I was gonna do a tick. Tock about this. I'm so glad you did. I really? I have his picture in my phone. I mean, you might as well knows we got it. Oh my God. But yeah. Okay. So 32 year old man, his name. Goodness, got chunky face and he's pretty bald. Yeah. His name is Donald Meshi jr. He's 32 years old. He is from Lancaster Pennsylvania, funny story. There's only reason why I want to cover this is because he went to the same middle school is I went to and actually same time. Or is he like, wait?

11:02 Watching time. Yeah. Oh, he looks mad old. Yeah. No. He's hurt you. I'm 33. He looks like he's in his 40s. See that life of crime, it just it, just making ages. Yet here's a little rough, like racism and or just being a criminal seems to age you dramatic music. So my cousin's know him as he talked to your family. I did not. I should have done, I should have done it, but it was me no Alameda too long. Oh, my God. But yeah, my cousin knows him. I think my brother knows him. My sister, probably, too. I'm pretty sure I walked across him well. Yeah. My people, my family. No. Anyway, so that happened on Wednesday. Actually, no, not Wednesday.

11:46 Yeah, and I don't know. Okay, so what happens is one of his relatives coming over to his house, right? So woman, and she Cease this head on a plate, in his fridge is sitting on a plate in the fridge. So, she, you know, she rushes out of the house, she calls 911. She's like, there's a head in my relatives fridge, and it looks like another one of my relatives, so cops come over, come over and he's like, yeah, so he pulls out the head and so he tells them this story. three that At night, he goes into his father's room and he sees what he thinks to be a cadaver dog, All Laying in his father's bed. And it sounds like his father.

12:45 So he then proceeds to um, To stab said cadaver doll a few times for it said, 23 minutes, he stabbed it with a 29 inch kitchen knife and then he then proceeds to dismember this cadaver doll and he puts the body parts into bags. Think he put them in his garage or basement, except for the head. They put him in the basement. No, he put them all in a basement, everything in the basement. But hold on. All right he's reacting to the way that I'm staring at him right now, hold on, hold on. So the day after he does this in this members the body and puts all the body parts in the basement, he goes back down, guess the head.

13:38 And then he puts it on a plate and then he puts it in the fridge, why? I'm not sure, it doesn't really say. But, um, okay. So spoiler alert, the body was actually his father. Yeah, Donald mess. You senior. So it says that he lived at their address since 18 1985. Okay. So they're at the house for like a while. But yeah, he's someone who has hallucinations often. He is someone who has definitely been arrested for anger issues. Okay.

14:20 So this is probably a lie. So he was a he was a truck driver and one time and then there's one report that says that he was I guess he was at a pump, you know, filling up his truck and then I guess he had fallen asleep. You know, the sleeping in this cab. Right? And then one of the jockeys of the, you know, the the whatever you want to call it. The yard welcome. Oh yeah. He knocked on his door, you know, he told him, like wake up. You Gotta Move Along. You're out of gas pump, so you can't be sleeping here. Ha ha ha. So jockey, you know, walks away, then he gets attacked from behind by messy and yeah. And he's like, can't you let a man sleep? That's what this is, what he says, quote, wow. And yeah, so he was you know, supposed to be going an anger management.

15:11 Think this happened and 2019. So, so yeah. Two years ago. Wow, but yeah, now this thing with his father, it just happened. This past week, right? This is days ago, somebody sent me an e-mail like a tick tock message. Yeah. Going like, hey, didn't you say you live not far from here? I'm not that close, but yeah, it's like 45 minutes away. Yeah. Used to live there in the place I like to visit. I have friends there. My family is there. Oh yeah. Your whole families and that be yeah. But yeah, so a woman, it says, quote this up, so I got this from Pain life, but it says a woman who grew up with Meshi jr. Stop by the crime scene, Thursday after hearing the unsettling news, I guess that he Good old pain. Yeah, I know, right.

16:06 So she told been lying and she was shocked to hear that mess. She who had not talked to her in years. Allegedly stabbed someone to death and cut up his body. Neighbors are kind of interview. But what I do know interviews it is like this just happened and if anything updates on it like he's not I guess he's charged with it but he's not like well now they have to figure out like is he just a liar as he is guilty going? So yeah. So, they're doing an investigation right now. Many choices. So, as this story update, I will keep you guys updated as well or will keep you updated as well on this. But yeah, that's my story.

16:47 This week person who went to Junior High with me and my family. He was found well, is accused of murdering his father and dismembering his body? Yeah. Well, there you go. When Killers get caught is sponsored by the magic class Boutique. Now, why does that name sound so familiar? Well, it's because as a business ran by our very own Britney, that's right into the magic class. Boutique is not only a black-owned business, its way. Woman-owned is well this is a jewelry company and I make some pretty awesome earrings.

17:30 Reading from cute little sushis 2spooky, mermaid skeletons. There are even a Durable self-defense, keychains for those just in case moments, and introducing this Arrow collection, this set of earrings is based off of serial killers and the official merch for the podcast. The Collection features, everything is serial killer, would need to pull off their crimes from hunting knives at the beginning of the crimes to Warden keys for when they eventually get caught. Check out the magic class.com today where you can use our promo, code caught to receive 15% off of your online order. That's th e magicc, elas p.com and use promo code cult for 15% off and make sure you tell Brittany that I sent you. Well, sorry that we took so long with our story today. I know some people get a little annoyed with that. You're still here.

18:38 Thank you so much for listening. And so, one of my sources last week, was this, marvelous book called mistresses of Mayhem and of course, it's all about women killer. Yes, I want to buy it, right? Yeah, because I told you that the, I found two copies of the book, one with one last name, and one of the other and I, which wasn't sure, which one is the current woman's last name, who wrote this right now, one of the names is hornberger. And obviously, I use that for Reference for the Dorothea Puente case but it's full of many other horrible women and as I'm going through this book I see this picture and I have seen this woman's face dozens of time. I even talked about her crime on Tick-Tock, not that long ago. I'm going to show you this picture because I'm sure you've seen it too.

19:27 Yes, in that sense, yes, I have the picture of Gertrude baniszewski zest key that is a ski we go. Mess it up all night. Okay? But uh yeah and the thing is I know her story. I know the fact that she horrific lie, horribly tortured a teenage girl for months on end between like 65 and 66 like crossing over the winter time period. I know that, you know, her teen children joined in, I discussed her. What happened to her Her and her children on Tick-Tock who participated. Yes, I remember that. But one thing I have never ever looked into was, who the hell? This weird lady must be. Hmm. And so that was what I set out to do was to learn who she was to see if there were any redeeming qualities and who she might have been at some point in her life, doubt it. You know, I'm gonna allow you and our listeners who decide how you feel about her by the end of this. All right, thanks to this shitty person was not surprising, not surprising.

20:26 But Gertrude businessess. Key was born Gertrude van fossum in late September of 1929 to Hue. Marcus van Fosston jr. And Molly van fossen and Indianapolis Indiana. Just a month before the New York Stock Exchange. Would crash and plunge America into the worst financial crisis anyone had ever seen. She was the third of six children to a mixed-race family of Polish and Dutch origin. In a world where no one had any money. And there were too many children Gertrude was her father's favorite. They had so little in terms of resources that he tried to make up for it by showering her with like a function.

21:12 Something that kind of faintly ignored her siblings but made her mother Mallie feel very threatened. Hmm. This was such a big deal in their household that Molly would try and separate Gertrude from Hugh, even when Gertrude was just a toddler, we're talking like two years old. Wow, that obviously did not work very well. If you've tried to separate a toddler who's obsessed with someone, there's just screaming that happened. Yeah. So when that didn't work, what Molly started doing was whenever he wasn't around. And she would just freeze her out. She's wouldn't talk to her at all. Why would you not try to build a relationship with her and try to get her like, on your side, too? I think it's very peculiar when an adult woman is envious of children, but it happens all the time especially when people like got remarried and stuff. So don't like the behavior of the, you know, oh, this person spending more time with his daughter than me. I see, like articles, like all the time on like, like dating. Websites and on Reddit and like right at relationships. So this is fairly common, it's just tragic, okay? So Gertrude siblings were like, we don't really want to be on the receiving end of this, so they decided to sort of side with him, mom, of course.

22:35 And so she very much group, like she was an outsider, which didn't have the effect that That they really wanted, because at that point, then it was like Hugh was the only person who treated Gertrude like she was little person, so she clung to him even more. You didn't really understand what was happening because when he came home, everything was normal. And he didn't really ask his wife either. But he just went well, she's being extra clingy when I come home. So I must mean I need to give her more attention. All right? Yeah. I mean which is what is the cycle that continued horrific lie? That's shitty now.

23:15 Yeah it is Molly, had complete control of her other children and she very easily manipulated them into bullying Gertrude. So that means that it began to extend from home and to school and then the other van. Fosston kids got other kids in school to bully her as well. On top of that, the whole country is in the middle of the Great Depression. He was cycling through jobs very fast. He starts drinking to deal with the feelings of inadequacy because he's struggling to take care of his family. Molly, for some weird reason, blames all of the troubles on Gertrude, but she knew that she couldn't do anything overtly to her husband's favorite child without making her husband angry. Like I said, Gertrude haven't pretty terrible childhood, her dad's doing his best to make her happy and then pretty much the worst thing that can happen did.

24:14 It's 1940 there in the kitchen and Hugh and Gertrude are reading together. She wasn't the best student, but she tried and then he falls over and he has a massive heart attack. Gertrude begin screaming. Molly runs into the Ian and the two witnessed, his death eleven-year-old Gertrude. I'm sure knew that things weren't going to get better for her because Molly looked her in the face and said, what did you do to him? Wow. Yeah. Come on, hon. So Gertrude was blamed for her father's death which is completely irrational and like, you know, we've both lost people.

25:02 So you understand that when you're in the throes of that kind of grief like that's, is it surmountable? It's like hard enough to do regular life things, but then to have somebody else going well, it's your fault that person died. That's awful. So she started having night these night terrors, and without Hue to stop, Molly, Molly began beating Her. Because her night terrors would wake up the other children. That went on for the next three years. Well he's not there anymore so you don't have to be jealous of her anymore. You can start being nice to her but now she's just shifted the anger in a different way.

25:42 You took my husband away from me. I didn't do anything once that you can't. It's that also ties into the first time to you took my husband away from me because he loved you too much. I gotta tell you don't, I don't understand it does don't have babies if you're going to be jealous of your bag. Please, like I said that one on for three years and Gertrude kind of lived in this world where her mother either ignored her or beat the crap out of her and her siblings were like I, yeah, listen, we're just gonna not do anything to help the situation Molly is obviously deeply mentally unwell. But Doesn't matter at all. Every problem in the house was a Gertrude problem to the point where it became a joke among the kids wear. Well, first, it started out like oh there's not enough food in the house Gertrude's eating too much and then the kids started making jokes and like if one of them were somewhere else in the house and they like tripped and fell, they would like laugh and go like a hog or tripped me.

26:48 Hahahaha is not fucking here. It's Things weren't much better but they were bad in a different way at 14. She started to have a little bit of like happiness. Mmm, this was weird because Molly had done a really good job of poisoning. The minds of the other moms and their little girls at school would repeat all the rumors that Molly told way, wait a second, the moms. So she got no, she had other, she would talk and talk shit about her daughter. Yes, true. And then, the daughters would find out from their moms and I will get repeated at school. I'm all right now.

27:30 Okay, wrong so but here's the thing, 14. Gertrude's hitting puberty. Mmm. And while the little boys were pretty uninterested before then. Oh, he hit her hard like a truck. Hey, we're very interested in now. And unfortunately, this is very much like her getting the attention from her father, only from teen boys. Oh no, this is, oh God, this is gonna be bad. So the boys would be like really interested in her and like lunch and want to sit next to her. And the thing is mind, you Molly's talking all the other moms, so her their daughters would be like, all the boys are focusing on Gertrude.

28:11 So then she would come home and Molly would be like, super upset with her. She's like, you're talking to boys, you know. Your slut. How do you know if someone was your high school and Grocers confused, because she's like, what am I doing? That's wrong. Other than just talking to people who are like jiggling around me. Like, if people who want to be my friends, want to be nice to me. Teenage boys. Were like, yeah, we all know anything yet. It's me. Oh, God Somali would yell at her about being seen with boys. I'm like at this point, Gertrude knows. Absolutely nothing about sex. She understand why her mom was mad at her but at this point like she just didn't care. She's like, what are you going to do to me? Molly beat my ass some more.

28:59 Mmm. So yes it progressed with the boys and very quickly Gertrude is very popular with them and the same girls who are with who whispered about her in the hallway for the last, like five years are now, kind of worried that girl truths gonna steal your boyfriend because Gertrude will let the boys touch her under her shirt. Oh, And the thing is she's never was a great Beauty. Okay. And she didn't have a whole lot of a personality, because she lived virtually and isolation in her house inside, right? Yeah, like I said she left the boys touch her and she touched them.

29:40 It's still pretty chased. In my opinion honestly like it 14. You're just touched a little boobies. Like that's really not the worst. But rumors that she was doing way, way, way more. We're obviously spreading because that's a high school. Works course. The teachers were like talking about her like oh, she's definitely gonna get Knocked Up, you know how they talk. And the worst part here is like the rumor mill, actually, only made her life better because not only was it like, the, The Freshman boys, but now, the rumor was that she was the girl who would go all the way. So the older boys started talking like, looking at her and she had even more attention on her. Yeah. So at 15 Gertrude start dating pretty much her mom's like you're forbidden. Like you can't do that and she's just like I can do it. I want to have fun.

30:31 Some of the boys or men who would come to pick her up range from the ages of 17 to 23 unsurprisingly because the only positive relationship she's ever had, was with an older man. She was drawn to older men and they were drawn to her because of what everybody was saying about her, which wasn't true, and that's why the next section is awful. Great. So Gertrude 16 she drops out of school packs of a couple things of the house and gets married. A man named John Ben has house key, they'd only been dating for a few months. They had done virtually nothing together. This was pretty much the only option you have in 1945. If you want to start a new life, find a man somewhere else. Hmm, their wedding was super small. It only had John's family.

31:19 Gertrude really didn't have many friends and her mother was so loud about how she didn't approve of John. So she wasn't invited. How old was he? He was 18. Okay. 926. No, he was not one of the super old one, got it. So he was also a police deputy and Indianapolis and although he wasn't making a lot of money. The local bank was like, you know, he's a cop will give him the loan. So they got a house and moved into a nice little Suburban, home on the edge of Indianapolis and they went on a honeymoon in Ohio, I just got to tell you oh hi is not what I think of when I think of a honey. No, Ohio.

32:01 But you know what? Maybe Cleveland was you know, we love Ohio, even was a little bit better than you. You know, how does the greatest? I mean I have my constant there so you know, there's a big, the music festival. Yeah, so that's there's, that's why I label Heil, but okay. Well very quickly after their honeymoon, thanks began to sour. Gertrude didn't know how to be a wife. Let alone a housewife. She had been taught almost nothing from her mother other than how to like clean. She couldn't cook and worst of all for John. He had heard all these raunchy tales about Gertrude being this sexual minks and she was not experienced it all there.

32:43 Usually, you do this and that and this and that and know who I don't know what you're talking about. What's that? Well, so she did know how to clean like I said, because her mom for sure to clean everything. So then she would get mad because John will come home and he would just, like, throw his stuff everywhere because he's a teenage boy. And so they're having arguments about different things. So they're having like, she's arguing about him being messy, he's like you suck at sex and you also cook awful. He's like, you can't cook at all. What's wrong with you? My God, they've been together for a year now. He's like, she's a terrible wife. He's like, I have been sold a bill, terrible Goods. I've been so so many lies.

33:29 He's laying. He is. Stand on the throne of Lies. Oh my God. The SEC situation only got worse because here's the thing. So Gertrude's family was hyper really like super religious which is very common of the time in the early 1900's in America. So she's like sex is a mortal sin and so she very much began to look at it like it was a chore in her marriage so that she just had to do. And the thing is, when she was a teenager, she was clumsily touching other teenagers. John's not a teenager at this point, he's 19. Okay, he had some experience before they got married, he was expecting to get something better than he got before.

34:13 Sir. Just teach her what you know in your good to go. Well, the other issue is that like when I say she thought it was a mortal sin, he was expecting some level of. Like I'm interested in being here from her. He is not interested. She's just like I have to do this because this is my this is what God Said, I have to do, my report should make a baby. Yeah, so he's like I've been hoodwinked Bamboozled and he like openly lets her know that he's not happy, which only makes her want to have sex Less. In fact, she would remain almost motionless while they will. Call it make love really. It became a situation where John just sort of used her body and then went to sleep. If and if she denied him Then he would probably punch her in the face.

35:05 So he got either. I'm just gonna lay here and let it happen or her being like, please let me go to sleep and if she didn't, he would hit her and then she would just be like, fine, whatever do it you're going to do. And then those beatings continued out of the out of the bedroom specifically, whenever he said that she annoyed him, which could be anything. Literally, anybody can do you for anything? God. Well, And then she got pregnant. Hooray. You don't have to have sex for a while. That is exactly it. So the to begin to go through this periods of happiness and also struggle when virtue was pregnant. She began to focus on like the nutrition for her in the baby so she started cooking better.

35:58 Oh great. And then she would clean the house constantly regardless of what he did. Because she said that she learned that you know, newborns can get infections really easy. Ali. So she was like hyper cleaning the house cooking like these. Excellent meals. John's like this seems. Alright. Then the baby's born and John's like oh she doesn't want to like deal with me at all. Now she's focusing all of her attention on the baby. Baby. Girl Paula. And so almost in a weird ironic way. There's the same kind of jealousy, so it's just reverse.

36:39 Yeah. But in reverse and pretty much the only time John wouldn't beat her was when she was pregnant, and she spent most of the next decade of their relationship pregnant. Mmm. Finally, she got pregnant four times finally. She divorced him in 1955 and she got married to a man. Named Edward Guthrie, a few years later, he was unemployed and very into the fact that Gertrude was getting a very large child support stipend for for kids Edward, actively hated her children. So you, yeah, you love the money, but you hate to kids so much so that after he got a job, he moved out three months after they got married, and he stood in the courtroom and told the judge, I don't like the kids.

37:32 That's why we're getting a divorce. Wow, and she was just like, you know what? Fine go. Wow, he's good chillin. You know. Things are things are doing, all right. one day, Gertrude's walking around town, and she sees John, and she's just like, well, you know, I suppose you could come hang out you know the kids do like seeing you mmm so he visits more often now she's a lot more experienced after having been single for a little while I'm sure she is.

38:14 So he's a little happier in that department. Oh hang out those you should have quote it started out with the kids being like really excited to see him and like sure you can come have dinner with us and be around the children and then the children go to sleep and Then we want to come stay with me, then it became John moved back in and got the hang out hang out. They got to hang out, hang out. They would have drinks and she would show him her new tricks and and they got married again. Oh God, okay, things were going, all right. he was like, we have these four kids were good, but obviously, In like, you know I'm going to say like the late 50s we were real good with contraception.

39:07 I mean for real people aren't very great at now. This is true she got pregnant again. But she also had that she had a miscarriage. She did not handle that. Well, and John was not very supportive because they had stopped having sex, but they had stopped having sex because she was depressed. Yeah, they started to hit her again. She got pregnant. Again, this happened seven for seven more years. She's get depressed. Get pregnant, feel better. The cycle would go on during the seven years ago, they did have two more children this time though. John filed for divorce.

39:51 He was like yeah, you know what? This was a bad idea. It only took you seven years buddy, but whatever, you know those are for the sex and sex was great. It must have been listening, Gertrude busted. Hit him with that wall because that's how I. Yeah. But now she's single with six children. It's 1963. She's 37 years old. She has no income outside of her child support and she's becoming slowly very unstable. She can't seem to hold a job herself. She can't afford the mortgage payments, then she meets this man named Dennis, right. And he's 22 years old and married at the time. She was a lot older than him and she definitely abused the crap out of that.

40:39 Oh, the day that Dennis is wife moved out of his house Gertrude moved in with all six kids. Mmm-hmm, Dennis was an alcoholic prone to outbursts, but he was very happy with sacks. And he was like, you know what, who cares. I'll pay for this. Big-ass family, I'm getting laid like crazy the house, but the problem was actually a couple weeks. The house, never got cleaned and, and Dennis was kind of freaked out because she was getting kind of weird and terms of her emotional place in life.

41:20 So, he actually plans like this elaborate Escape, like, it was like a month. He was like, all right, listen, he's like if I try and break up with her, she's just going to try and seduce me and like, then I'm gonna be stuck with her some more so um, one night, he comes home and the kids are nowhere. The house is spotless. Dinner is a maid. They have a nice meal, they go upstairs, they have sex. And she's like, hey you know, have you thought about like a family with us in the future and he's like, I don't want kids, what are you talking about? You have six kids, we got enough kids and she says, to him pretty much how you should have thought about that before. Oh, she pregnant.

42:07 Yeah, up. And that is also the first night that Dennis hit her He actually beat her to the he tried to make her Miss Carey. This was like a brutal beating. What is wrong with your whole look. But I guess that wasn't on that aside because she did have a baby nine months later. Oh my God and she named him Dennis Junior. And when she returned home from the hospital Dennis right? Senior was gone. You not just gone but completely vanished you could have done this before. Yeah like doll of hitting her. Hey Maritza like 1960 link are you know, it's like 60 you know okay well two times social and done it anyway.

42:54 It's Irish and If she tries to tell people, she's a widow. Hmm she she tries to tell people that she's trying to tell come up with any story. They do. We got married. He's just gone for a little while but the problem is like she's really struggling like I think that cycle of having the constant miscarriages did something to her brain. I can only imagine how many must have happened. So it got to the point where sometimes she'd be telling people stories about Dennis and mid-conversation she would change while he was gone and she didn't realize she was doing it. And probably the nicest thing that happens in this entire story, the neighbors realize that she definitely is incapable of keeping a job at this point.

43:53 And they suddenly are like, you know, what Gertrude you have all those kids. You're really good with kids. Can you watch our kids and hey Gertrude? Your house is always really neat. I see your laundry. It looks so nice. Do you want to come help me with my laundry? I'll pay you. That's nice and yeah, pretty much her. A come up with a plan to help fund all of these children because they know that she cannot do it. She babysat. She washed clothes at 1967. She has seven children. Total Paula who 17, Stephanie 15? John 12, Marie 11. Surely 10 James 8, and Dennis Lee, right? Junior, who is one John's child support payments. Are not coming as often as they should have been. Hmm, because he got mad after he heard about her. Fling with a younger man and my movie buddy. And during this time, Paul is oldest daughter. I mean Gertrude oldest daughter.

44:58 Paula becomes kind of the matriarch of the family. Her mom is fully breaking down at this point. I Gertrude is chain-smoking. Barely eating losing Her connection to what is real. Her hair is receding, do to just know nutrition. Her eyes are sunken in and to Paula, it seemed like Gertrude was pretty good with being miserable. She would monitor, or the only reason why she monitored her children was that she didn't want them to get pregnant. That was like her biggest fear and something she began to fixate on like you can't go with boys. You're going to get pregnant like one time. I'm I guess like Paulo was in her room with a boy, and here's the problem.

45:45 Like with this whole situation with her and the I don't want you to get pregnant, she allowed like any kids in the neighborhood to hang out in her house and she mainly laid in her bed and smoked and drank and did nothing and occasionally, she would come out and unluckily for Paula that one day. A boy in your room, she had a boy in her room and her mom, like burst of the door and it's like centers, like just screaming at her. and finally, like Paula's, I like Gertrude's like Stop bothering me. Stop cleaning the house. Stop trying to make me eat food. Oh wow, I'll let anybody come through here. I don't care.

46:29 And so the kids are like Mochi and then there's a situation where Paula went out and she ended up in a hotel with a man. And after they did the deed, he put his wedding ring back on. She did not know and she was very upset. Sao Paulo is absolutely pregnant and Turner currently in the house with her mom. Trying to hide said pregnancy. The house is now the place for every teenager to come and get into trouble, even though it is a complete mess. This is also the time when Paula meets the like and sisters Sylvia. And Jenny, she meets them to one of her friends named Darlene. Sylvie is a little bit younger than Paula and Jenny and had a, and Jenny is younger than Paula has a leg brace from which he had Polio Darlene was out and realized that they were pretty much homeless and brought them to her house and then convince his Paula to take them with her because she's like, well, your mom doesn't Care who's there at the house. So this totally works they can just hang with you. They all sit in Paula's room and Jenny and Sylvia kind of tell them about how like the night before. Their mom had them pack up, all their stuff and run away from her father.

47:53 Lester Lester had hit mom mom's name is Betty. So Betty grab the girls and ran they get to Indianapolis after taking a bus and they have no money and so bad. He's like okay. I'm gonna go steal something from me from the store gets arrested. So then Sylvia pulls Jani away because she's like, if they find out we're with her and we don't have an adult, we're going to just get locked up to. Yeah. So they end up just kind of wandering around Indianapolis and that's where they ended up meeting. Darlene. Sao Paulo is like come with me. And she has Sylvia go tell her mom the same story and her bedroom Gertrude's leg. Okay, well how about this?

48:37 Stay the night tomorrow, we'll go look around. The police will go the police precincts and find out where your mom is. True to her word, the next morning at like 10:00 11:00 Gertrude's. Like, all right, we're going to go find your mom and there's a knock on the door. There is Darlene and Lester lichens. Who had tracked his wife to Indianapolis? Because what happened is that when she got arrested, she gave them Lester's. Number They had gone. He went to County Jail. They reconciled across the glass while they're in prison course. I love you. I love you too. I'm so sorry. He tells Gertrude I have friends who work for a traveling circus and we're going to go work for them and make really good money, but we don't want to take the girls all around like the area with us.

49:29 So what if we pay you 20 bucks? And they can live here, clean books, a day a week. Okay. And Gertrude's pretty excited because she's like, huh, $20 and cigarette money dope Paula made it seem like she was happy. These two girls are going to stay in her room but the real issue is that like Paula's hiding a pregnancy and it's real hard to hide that from two other girls who are your same age. There's things that should be happening. That aren't gonna happen. Yeah. The first week things are doing are pretty good Sylvia and Jenny get set up in the new school year. Following the house rules. One day, they come home to a strangely Silent House. And I am going to give anyone listening the pause. This is the trigger warning, pause. I'm not even going to go into all of the things that happened to Sylvia Likens.

50:29 From this point forward I'm only going to hit the highlights of the next like year of this poor girl's life for folks who don't want to listen. There will be liner notes, just know that torture happens and it goes on for quite a long time. Ready. Brian. No. Okay. I'm just like, okay, Haley. He were right. I gotta be here. Let's go. So, since the two girls aren't really sure, why the house is quiet and they're like, oh no, did we break a rule or something? They go up to Paula's room, and Paula and Gertrude her there. And Gertrude is enraged. She's like, your dad told me this money would be here on this date. She called grab Sylvia throws her onto the pile of clothes. She said, be nice.

51:18 Not even a bed. It's like a pallet. No, and Gertrude like like they pull down her underwear and begin just like hitting her with a spoon. Then they grab Jenny, do the same thing. Hits them on there, like thighs, and legs. And she ends the beating by telling the girls. If your father doesn't pay me, you get beat. Gertrude takes pleasure in this. She even tells the girls right before she leaves. If he hasn't paid me by the end of the week, I'm writing you girls out a dollar a ride until the money shows up. What's that mean? She's gonna prostitute them for a dollar. A guy. Oh there's a Dollar Ride.

51:59 That's what she said. A dollar ride until I make my money. Oh she meant ride in that way. Oh oh okay. The worst part is Lester's. Check arrived in. The next morning. It literally got delayed in the post. Now, don't you feel silly? You feel stupid for being these children that are even yours. Well, the situation though, is that what she realizes is she likes how powerful she feels. So now it's not going to stop the next meeting came when like and sisters realized that they could sell like old Coke bottles like those old school thick glass ones because they Would recycle them and just reuse them and they would get really good money for them. So they went and they bought a bunch of food and candy and stuff.

52:46 And this is actually really messed up because Jenny was like, oh we got to eat all this and Sylvia was like no, no, no. We should take some back to the other luggage children, you know. And so they come back and they give the money to the other kids and Gertrude is like you stole that and Sylvia's like no this is my own money. Annie. Jenny who is still raw from the other beating is silent. Paula. And Stephanie come in and watch as Gertrude just like chance, like, Thief. A liar. Thief liar. And the other two girls join in. Finally, Jenny, tell a mind, you the whole time.

53:28 She's doing this, she's hitting her, mmm, finally, Jenny told Gertrude that, they'd stolen the candy that way to stop the beating. From this point on Jenny and Sylvia try to be perfect houseguest. They are silent. They try to be a bother. They try to avoid Gertrude entirely and just go to school. They even stopped trying to really make friends because they're worried about the fact that the like is children's of always goes, gone to these holes, right? Gertrude is not feeding them. Like barely at all. So one night all the kids have to go to this church function in place of Gertrude going because Gertrude doesn't go anywhere.

54:10 She just lays in her filth and enjoys being an awful person, right? The local preacher notices that both Jenny and Sylvia seem a little weak, and it had been three days since either of them had eaten anything. So when the preacher offered them food, they couldn't say no and funny enough, Jenny was the one who ended up kind of gorging herself on food. But Sylvia was like, I need to like show some restraint she goes home Sylvia, tux, Jenny into bed and then she's like, you know what, I should just go to sleep and then I guess she sort of changed her mind and she goes back downstairs. There's Gertrude sitting with all of her children, Gertrude calls her a pig, and it's just like, I heard you were out bringing shame to my name again.

54:54 as if anyone could shave you more than you've already been Gertrude but regardless God. Okay, Gertrude it right? Like so mad about the food thing and how like oh people are going to think that I didn't feed you, you don't. So she drags Sylvie into the kitchen, pulls out a steel hot, dog bun and like an old sausage drenches, it and mustard, and ketchup, and tries to force feed her screaming the entire time about how Sylvia's gonna get fat. Nobody's going to want her. She'll end up alone through this process. So, Via does begin to vomit and Gertrude forces her to eat. The finished, hot dog.

55:37 And then to eat the regurgitated, hot dog again, like, like with her foot on her leg back, dragging her head across the floor, terrible. All of the baniszewski children watched her do this, and then Gertrude picked her up. Wiped her off and told her I only punish you because I care about you. Mind you, I'm going to. Also, let you know that a lot of these stories come from Stephanie Bennett's us key. Because at the inevitable trial that happened, she when she was the one that she turned on the family and told everything. So, these are the things that Stephanie was there to see. A week later Sylvia meets with Lester and Betty Gertrude organizes this so that they don't see the inside of the house.

56:27 The whole family gets on a bus and goes to Garfield Park. Bet, he's like, why are they so skinny and Gertrude's like, oh Paula's, like on a diet? And so, the girls decided they were going to help her with it. So they're on a diet to pretty much Gertrude lies and lies and lies some more on On all the while just stare in Sylvia straight in the face. Daring her contradict me. I dare you, Jenny hadn't witnessed the other the thing that had just happened the week before, so she was like, we're fine.

57:09 All that happened to Jenny was she got spanked one time right? It was weird because she's like 14. But you know in the end Betty hugs her daughters and she's like I'm so happy you guys just started going to church. That's amazing. On the way home Gertrude's. Like this is great. We're going to be friends now and no well no friend. I believe in and Jenny's testimony. She said was almost worse that they believed her. It's terrible because they let their guard down. Yeah. So they tried to be friendly with Paula and Stephanie. So I'm going to say that this is when things go from the abuse that the kind of abuse that Gertrude experience when she was younger into a completely different territory.

58:01 So all the teenagers are downstairs in the living room and they're all talking about their experiences with the opposite sex. Okay. So jenni's like I only kissed a boy and like that was like a like a year ago and we never talk to each other Sylvia is like well when I lived in Florida with my parents, I went steady with a boy and she said that she let him touch her over her sweater and everyone's like Gertrude's even there. And she's like, oh, but when Sylvia tells her story, Gertrude snaps, slaps, her in the face calls her a whore in front of all the other kids. Sylvia's like what I didn't? We mean I'm a whore. I've never even had sex before.

58:42 Yeah. And she's like I have even gone past first base but like Gertrude, literally, like hits her so hard. She falls to the floor. Her head hits the wall on the way down. She's screaming the entire time and she's a prostitute. Everybody knows the neighborhood. Children are like the fuck is going on. Gertrude's like oh I bet you're pregnant right now. Anyway. She's like, you know you let a boy put his dirty Parts down there. Like she's using some real area language. Yeah, really pillows. Then Gertrude somehow like spins the story that obviously Sylvia had accepted all that candy for sex. That's why she had that candy and she's like, she's telling this story like, Oh, I bet you.

59:33 That's how you got all that candy. You must have like exchange candy for sex. She is physically stomping on Sylvia's scratch, like full, she demands that some of the neighborhood boys, like hold Sylvia, what the and they do? They hold her legs in place, so that Gertrude can continue like kicking her at one point. Like they got tired and like, the one boy dropped her leg and was like exhausted. And so Sylvia manages to get up. Barely able to stand, and she goes to sit in a chair and Gertrude grabs. The chair like from out from under her and literally says, whores are unfit for chairs.

1:00:19 What the fuck. And from that moment forward, she was not allowed to sit anywhere in the house. You're still listening. It gets worse from here. Gertrude would even come into her bedroom and like, throw the little palette. Across the room, come on, lay down, fuck you. We're gonna do obviously like a horse, I'll stand up. Well, the next thing that happens is quite possibly, like there's a discussion on this of whether this rumor about the baniszewski. Kids came from Sylvia or if it just came from the other kids being there at the house. But regardless there, These rules. There's these rumors about the ban has a ski girls. No one is like we can't say anything. Like there's no rumors about Sylvia because Sylvie is literally like the most innocent of innocent. They're at school, Paul.

1:01:08 And Stephanie didn't hear these rumors, but they knew something was going on because whenever they would walk in a room, people would get quiet. Of course, you know people are talking about you when that happens. And the first rumors are that the house is filthy, but it also has rumors about places that other kids aren't allowed to go. That's why people thought it was Sylvia. The told these rumors, one teen boy had the courage and his name was quite Hubbard. He also was in love with Stephanie so he decides he's going to go right up to the baniszewski house. Talk to Gertrude and he's like Sylvia and Jenny are spreading lies about my girl and you What he did this. He gasps he goes straight to the house. Oh, no Sylvia gets home from school and Coy is right in her face.

1:01:57 And he's like, why are you talking shit about my girlfriend? He's like, why'd you say Stephanie's a slut as soon as Daphne. Here's that she's like, wait, what? Oh my god. Oh, and Sylvia. It's just like, I've never said anything. Why would I say anything about you? Like, I barely know you. Yeah, I don't really care about you right now. She's like, the rumors are could have come from. Any of the teenagers you allowed to be in this place, right? Right. As it is but like no one's listening to her. Coy, who is studying Judo proceeds to beat the ever living crap out of her and the other issue is that Sylvia was underfed undernourished and had never been in a fight in her life. Yeah, the other children watch in silence. Coy flips, her around the room, several times before Gertrude's. Like you're messing up my living room, kid, and then she walks over opens the door to the basement and goes take her down there.

1:02:50 Pretty much alone with her in the basement. He just preacher like a human punching bag. When McCoy is exhausted, he leaves the basement and Gertrude's. Like you know what? You should come back for more practice. Sylvia's show Steph, she can barely move. She finally crawled her way, back up the steps and Gertrude's like. Well it's not like anybody's going to believe what you're saying about my kids Sylvia stays home for a couple days, Gertrude tells her school, she has the flu most of the bruises fade from purple to green and they finally get to that ugly. Yellow color and Stephanie Impala share their makeup with Sylvia to help her hide her bruises. Sylvia stops.

1:03:37 Talking really to mostly to anybody at school. She's like, I know one can say that. I said something, if I never talk at all, boy starts coming coming by regularly, he didn't beat her up as badly as he did the first night, but he does still like flip her around. Really like she's a judo doll really. He just comes over and just So Sylvia does make like one friend despite the fact that she's really trying not to all right. Yeah, name was Anna. She was actually like a freshman. She's only 13 and she like Anna's just like I really want to come see where you live and like Sylvia's like no you don't. Hmm.

1:04:21 So finally she can't give enough excuses at this point. She's like fine I'm sure animal take one step into the house and see the pile of garbage in the living room and like Turn around when they come in Gertrude in the living room and she's so excited. Oh my gosh, you have a friend. You should go get her a Coke and we'll wait here in the living room for you when Sylvia walks back in and attacks her. What the hell Gertrude had told Anna that Sylvia has been talking about her mother? In just a minute Gertrude had removed, the only friend that Sylvia. Hey, why are you doing this? So then Anna told other people at school and now Sylvia's really isolated there.

1:05:07 Other girls from school, attacked her to based on things that Gertrude said a few times Sylvia, even try to defend herself. She's like, listen, I don't know you, why would I lie about your family? One night, I could grow was in the living room. Her name was Judy and Gertrude. Is like, you know, she's been talking all this stuff about you and your mom and Gertrude was just like, you know, you should hit her for how what she says about you and Judy was like I'm not going to do that. Like I don't I didn't hear her say anything. So Judy leaves someone smart. Yeah. Okay. And so Gertrude then demands. Well, if Judy is not going to hit you, Jenny should hit you, Jenny refuses and Gertrude's. Like what if you don't hit her, I'll hit you. Hit me, hit me.

1:05:55 I don't care. So Jenny is just sobbing Gertrude hits her so hard, she loses her balance and Falls because she has the messed up. Leg Sylvia is like like begs jenni's. Like for the love of God, just do it and Jenny ends up, punching her sister repeatedly until Gertrudis satisfied. At first, they try to hide this abuse. Like I said, they do the makeup, all that stuff, but Sylvia showing up, bruised more and more often, boys allowed to come in and throw her around whenever he wants. Honestly, they weren't really watching him. And so he was already kind of a dark kid, but now he's being allowed to explore that like, yeah creepy killer stuff with her, so sometimes he's down there, just choking her until she passes out, real creepy stuff. One of the things about this case that really just purely pisses me off is the sheer volume of witnesses. So in August of 1965 new neighbors, move into the garden next to her.

1:07:03 True, their names are Phyllis and Ray Vermillion, and I'm naming them, because they should be ashamed, after seeing all of the kids. The Vermillion thought that Gert would be, you know, Gertrude be a good babysitter, right? The Vermilion family sets up this big backyard barbecue, so the families can meet each other Sylvia shows up with a black eye. Polish straight up goes. Oh yeah I did that. And they're like why at the same party Paulo goes into the kitchen boil. Some water scoop sack up and walks up and throws it on Sylveon. Oh my God then we're million family. Never reports it.

1:07:45 Two months later. They go to Gertrude's house to borrow something, and they see Sylvia in the house with a black eye. That is so bad that it's swollen. Shut and her lips are swollen and she's walking around almost like out of it. Probably this point. She has a concussion Paula ad and tells Phyllis. Yeah, I did that to her and then she takes off her belt to show Phyllis how she beats Sylvia and hits her in front of Phyllis. This was Also not reported. Surely after that Sylvia asked said, told Gertrude that she had to get a tracksuit for gym class and Gertrude's, like, no, I'm not spending money on you. And it puts Sylvia's in this terrible position where she's freaked out.

1:08:31 Because if she doesn't have the tracksuit that everyone has to wear at gym time, they're going to call Gertrude and complain, right? And then good. She'll be mad because she didn't because she doesn't have what she needs for school. So she steals one and she just hopes that that kid doesn't care that it's gone. She gets away with it at school at least but Gertrude sees this track suit when Sylvia is washing her clothes. Gertrude beats her, but also takes a cigarette and burns. Each of her fingers in front of the teenagers at the house. At this point, I think the teenagers are so desensitized to what they're seeing that. No one even objects-- to to this point and they all take turns burning her too.

1:09:17 Like they, she became like they're human ashtray. She is malnourished, she barely can sleep. She's in so much pain. Her body, just stopped healing at this point, Coy even noticed that her bruises weren't fading anymore and it said, like, this is kind of the place point where things are going to start to shut down soon. Gertrude had convinced everyone that she was a liar. So Sylvia didn't feel like she had anybody. She could talk to the only time she ate was when she could collect a couple Coke bottles and buy some food for herself on the way home before Gertrude could see it. She would sit on like a park bench and then sneak back in the house. Um, question.

1:10:01 Yeah, her ass this house is Jenny. Jenny is trying to avoid everybody. She will try to help in her own way, fairly soon, but Okay. Okay, go ahead keep getting with this. The next situation that happens isn't really bad one. One day she comes back Gertrude is waiting for her. She was even know why she's being beaten at this point. She just kind of lets Gertrude drag her around the house.

1:10:43 Finally though, Gertrude drags her into living room, there's no other Teens in the house other than boys. She forces Sylvia to strip in front of all the boys hands her a coke bottle and like demands. She put it inside of herself at some point doing this Sylvia passes out from just the pain. The next morning Sylvia bags to be taken to a doctor. She's like something is wrong, Gertrude beats her some more. The the issue is that she is now almost incontinent.

1:11:26 Like she can't control her bladder at this point from whatever happened with the model, right Gertrude's. Just like well take her upstairs. Throw around the hot water. You know since she pissed all over the bed and everything else, and one of the boys like refuses to do that, his name is Ricky and Gertrude actually coerces, this 14 year old boy to essentially further sexually assault Sylvia through the use of sexual favors. Yep, essentially though, I would say, I would say assault in the way of, they take her up to the bathroom, they take off her clothes, and they like forcibly clean her and then throw her back in the basement according to what Gertrude says right and this would go on. Every day in fact and this is this is probably pretty awful but the Ben is a ski children start charging money to other teenagers to come see Sylvia laying in the basement. When she's being a locked in now at night and sometimes charging money to push her down the steps. She's being kept constantly naked barely fed when they do feed her.

1:12:47 It's bizarre in a dog bowl. Or like one time. They'd be like you here soup but you have to eat it with your hands. It was just this is all Amusement for Gertrude's destructive mind at some point to 12 year old, John joined in And comes up with the idea that she should eat her own feces. Oh my God. Um so all these kids that are coming to pay money, they'd say they don't like just because she's naked. They like oh well you know yeah but they were 25 cents. You can come see her. Boobs are out. They don't don't tell stories around school. Nobody hears about this. No parents here.

1:13:28 No parents. At least not the way if they do. Then maybe, they'll believe it. Okay. Well there is a second chance at rescue happens. A local Pastor is visiting the homes of his parishioners. He sits in the kitchen, literally Sylvia's in the basement. Gertrude's like, oh, I was taking care of this. Girl, she's a sinner. She's been sleeping with married. Men, Paula wandered and during the conversation and there is this, the juxtaposition of, there's a pastor sitting in the chair, Paul is wearing baggy clothes because she's trying to hide the fact that she's like four months pregnant. And there's Gertrude talking about how, oh, I bet you, she's pregnant. She's fucking all these people and polish just like Wow, the reverend's like well I'll pray with you and maybe, you know, I'll come back and we can pray with Sylvia to when she's here. And Paul is like I hate Sylvia and like Gertrude's, like no, no no, you don't hate her.

1:14:25 You hate what she's doing, she wants to make sure, you know, hate the sinner, hate the sin, not the sinner, the reference like, I'm going to come back, but he never comes back now. Jenny tries to reach out to her parents. Since they move weekly, due to the movement of the traveling, like a circus, it's very difficult and Gertrude is holding onto the information as close as she can. So like, she would get a letter back from. She'll get a letter with the money and that would have the current address. And by the time, the girls got the the letter, they'd already moved on, right? They did have a grandmother but that grandmother was taking care of Jenny's twin brother Benny and she was old, they have an older sister named Diana and when Sylvia is locked in the basement, Basement Jenny's leg. I'm going to write to Diana.

1:15:12 She writes this whole huge letter begging her sister to like call the police Diana. Didn't believe her. Why? And what she said was that Jenny and Sylvia had tried to move in with her before. but, as Diane has looking over the letters, she's like, This is too detailed. Like where is this coming from? I guess it's not like oh these people beat me. Come pick me up so I can come live with you and your husband. Like these are very detailed accounts of abuse. There's come from actual experiences. Please come get us. So Diana decides to visit the area and she decides to stop by the house and Gertrude opens the door and is like you aren't welcome here, Gertrude tells her Lester called me and told me you can't see them Diana's.

1:16:05 Like that's weird. Why would Lester say that? And she's just like, I don't know, that's between you and your dad but you can't come here because you don't have permission. So then I was like, okay, sure she walks down the street and then she waits because she's like, it's some point. They're going to come out of his house. One of them is going to come out. Mmm. So about two hours later, Jenny's drying. This gigantic plastic bag outside and Diana runs up to her expecting, ju to hug her and Jenny's just like, I can't talk to you. You have to go away. So Diane is like, now I'm really confused. You just called me saying these people hate are monsters. So Diana calls, Indianapolis Social Services, thank you. And she disposed home and she's just like, all right, Gertrude was ready for this a couple days later, the social worker arrives, Jenny is there dressed beautifully along with all the other girls Sylvia's in the basement, Jenny has been told to play along, or she will end up in the basement as well.

1:17:01 The social worker is That Sylvia got kicked out several weeks ago because Gertrude found out. She was a prostitute, the social worker. Closes the case. There was another situation where they were almost found out by a man who the been is ASCII children robbed. Like he legitimately showed up at their house was like your kids stole my shit and then he starts just pushing his way through the house to find his stuff. He makes it into the kitchen and Coy Hubbard and Ricky tackle him. And they dragged him outside. Quit Hubbard is a problem and this is such an interesting thing because now they've allowed him to four months, get these weird creepy dark fantasies out.

1:17:48 He's like being weird and creepy with Stephanie to and she doesn't like it. She's like, as soon as like she's like it's fine when they're around the other children, but as soon as like, they would be like alone in her room, he would be like, almost sexually violent with her and like, not a surprise. He's allowed to do whatever the fuck he wants. Yeah, Gertrude's getting mad now because despite all the horrible stuff that they're doing the Sylvia Sylvia spirit is not broken like Gertrude would walk down the steps and Sylvia would just stare at her with like daggers. As you should. So Gertrude is like well if she stays downstairs, she never does anything wrong. So I'm gonna let her come upstairs because then she'll get in trouble and I can punish her.

1:18:34 So even though Sylvia had drank no water that day, like I said, she'd been rendered in continent by the bottle, right? Yeah, so she still peed the bed at night. Gertrude came in the room, screamed at her through old clothes at her, drag you down stairs when she realized. Only boys in the house again. She had Sylvia strip again. She did the same thing with the bottle of second time. This time, Sylvia, just kind of stared at her and did it. She didn't Flinch. She didn't cry. She was given Gertrude nothing. Gertrude's pissed. She's like I want to see her screaming and crying like she used to but she's doing everything. I'm asking her to do so then she has the boys hold her down and she takes a needle and they heat it on the stove and Ricky helps Gertrude. Come up with the words.

1:19:26 I'm a prostitute and I'm proud of it on her stomach. Oh after it was done surely, the younger daughter asked Sylvia well how do you You feel about being branded and Sylvia just goes. I guess there's nothing I can do. It's there also pisses Gertrude off so she let koi throw around in the basement some more, but that wasn't fun either, because Sylvia had stopped reacting. I'm assuming, at this point. She's disassociating. Yeah, she's in her own world. You know, at this point that night, Jenny went down to see her. And Sylvia told her sister, I'm going to die. I can tell. Jenny ran upstairs and head before. Gertrude could see her trying to console her sister Gertrude, sat on the steps and stared at her before, inviting her to come back upstairs.

1:20:16 The next morning, they bathed her dressed, her really nicely, and forced her to write a letter to her, parents telling her that she'd gone with a group of boys. They had assaulted her and hurt her and branded her. This was the letter that was going to prove that Sylvia had run away and Gertrude was planning on just dumping her somewhere outside. At this point Sylvia ran for the door. She's like, they're gonna murder me. And she just runs for the board or Gertrude grabs. Her drags her back attempts to like frost like a pole down her throat and knock her to the floor. At some point, they try and give her like crackers and water.

1:20:58 And she tells Gertrude, you should give it to a dog. It's hungrier than I am. Gertrude beats her again the next morning. Coy and Gertrude come into the basement Sylvie's, in the same spot where she'd been Gertrude tries to attack Sylvia and misses and hits herself like she literally like mrs. Hits the wall hits herself, Koya staring at her like who is this stupid old Thank God. Funny moment, ye took the curtain rod from Gertrude and beat her until he was sure she was unconscious Sylvia woke up in the middle of the night. She was unable to scream because of the thing with them trying to thrust something down her throat. So she found like a metal spade and she began hitting the wall all night long.

1:21:48 The sound actually was loud enough. That it woke people up in the area but none of them called the police because they were used to weird. Sounds coming from the vent has a ski house. The next morning Ricky and Stephanie pixel via they take her into the bathtub. Her head Falls below the water and they don't see any air bubbles, Stephanie tries to do CPR and that's when they realized that she is. Cold is October 26, 1965 and Stephanie was 16 years old. You Sylvia Gertrude had her, put in the basement and so, she calls the police across the street. She hands the police officers to note, and they're like, this is weird because, okay, I'm going to tell you this because I saw part of the letter, the letter is addressed to Dear mr.

1:22:37 And mrs. Betty. And Lester Likens. What child writes a letter to their parents and uses their official full name? No, you would just say to your mom and dad so that was already stupid. Weird. Yeah, but it gets more like this just gets. All right. The like, the officers. Like the other issue though, is that they're like, this is the wife of former officer, I guess they were still viewing her even though they're ex-wife. They're like we still have to like, take care of her as they are leaving. Jenny Whispers to a police officer. If you get me out of here, I'll tell you everything.

1:23:18 So the officer is like, you know what, I really need to question everybody here alone and he like looks to Jenny and he's just like, I'm going to start with you as soon as they are. In the Next Room. Ginny goes look in the basement. They killed my sister. He goes down into the house. Everyone was arrested. Who was there that day? Yay, except for Jenny, of course, that's Gertrude Paula. Stephanie, John, Junior, Coy and Ricky all arrested for murder and the other teenagers. Hers are arrested for assault. Like pretty much everyone in the house. And the whole time Gertrude is still like raving and ranting giving the same story. So the autopsy is done it.

1:24:00 Corroborates, a lot of the different stories stories from Jenny, some from Stephanie, she had over 100 different cigarette burns on her body. Some were second and third degree burns. She had severe bruising along with muscular and nerve damage. They weren't entirely sure if she just suffered a brain hemorrhage or this was just the combined shock of all of her injuries hitting her at once, right? I'm going to say, it was probably Really shocked. I think the fact that she was able to tell her sister, I think this is the end for me today. Hmm. When they attempted to do like a full body exam, her throat and her vagina were swollen shut, but she was inspected and doctors were able to report.

1:24:41 That Gertrude was full of shit and nothing. She had been telling any adult for the last like nine months was accurate. I like how you said, oh, the doctor the doctor has concluded that you are full of shit. The lie. Detector test determined your booger full of shit. Oh my God. Was definitely not a prostitute. Unfortunately, the Lesser charges are dropped. Almost immediately in favor of murder for Gertrude Stephanie. Paula John jr. Koi. And Ricky, hmm, Stephanie immediately turns State's evidence and the murder charges are dropped against her. Like I said, the majority of the things that I told you about today come directly from her testimony during her trial, and to the police.

1:25:26 Her trial was 1st May 1966, she denied knowing anything about the torture she entered a Not Guilty. By reason of insanity plea she absolutely was insane but her testimony was so bizarre that it made the jury dislike her she would go on and on about how Sylvia was the town whore and she deserved what happened to her when the evidence was that Sylvia and had no sexual experience and nothing had been done to her, genitals outside of the abuse that you did. Hmm, Gertrude's, eleven-year-old daughter Marie. Originally testified in her defense because that's what her mom wanted her to do. And then during cross-examination, she broke down and started crying.

1:26:10 And just was like, my mom, this is all a lie. May 19th 1966. A jury finds her guilty of first-degree murder. The public are shocked, that Gertrude is not given the death penalty, right, 1971. She somehow manages to get a retrial because they got some of the previous evidence thrown out. She gets the same penalty, despite the citizens of Indiana fighting against it like they actively tried to get her parole like ruined, like the people of Indiana. And they she was paroled in 1985. She changed her name back to Fan faucet and she died of lung cancer. Five years later she never took responsibility for any of her crime.

1:26:54 She swore she can never remember between the drugs and the alcohol. Her total time served was 20 years. I fucking hate it, not not nearly enough, not nearly enough. Paula was found guilty of second-degree murder. Paul actually gave birth during her first trial, and it had to be rescheduled. That did not stop the jury. From recommending life in prison for her though. She also got an appeal because of that situation with the evidence in 1971 and instead of going back to trial, she just agreed to manslaughter. They gave her 25 years. Even though Paula put his actually was like 2221.

1:27:34 But regardless even though Apollo participated in a prison riot and an attempted prison escape, they still released her a year later. I fucking like she only serves like I think in additionally, three more years total because it was parole and then she was officially done by 73. She changed her name, to Paul apace, and nobody heard anything about her until 2012. When the people of Iowa discovered who she was She was working as a teacher. That's right in the Marshalltown up in Marshalltown which was the Conrad school system. She had two adult sons. The time she was promptly fired for lying on her application. We haven't heard anything from her since we assume that she has probably changed her name again. Mmm. like I said, Stephanie served no time she changed her name, moved to Florida, got married had children also became a teacher John jr.

1:28:24 Was sent convicted of manslaughter and sent to the Indiana State Reformatory, where he was the state's youngest inmate at 12 years old. He was released two years later changed his name to John Blake and found God. As a man of God, he condemned his family and he is the only man has a ski family member to ever show. Any remorse for his participation in Sylvia Likens murder. He died at 52 years old from cancer in 2005. He was a real estate agent and a minister who had three children, who 11 year old? Murray served no time in exchange for her testimony against her mom. Once she turned to supporting the prosecution, they were like, it's all right, she's eleven.

1:29:06 We're not gonna do this to her. She apparently still lives somewhere in Indiana. Shirley was 10, she served no time. The only thing that surely participated in was branding Sylvia and that was she was The one who heated up a needle right? Her whereabouts are unknown today. James was eight. Nothing is known about him. Other than that, he served no time and since Dennis Junior was still like two years old, right? All we know about him is that he was put into foster care. He was adopted by a family like with the last name white and that he died in 2012. Now, let's talk about the people who weren't in the family. Yes, Coy Hubbard was convicted of manslaughter for his Judo attacks on Sylvia. He served two of his 21 year sentence before he was released. I fucking he never changed his name. He stayed in Indianapolis most of his adult life and not surprising for anybody.

1:30:02 He ended up in jail again for a murder charge in 1982. She still in there, he was acquitted mother. Now, there is a movie that came out in 2007, which is probably where you saw this story called An American Crime. Yeah. After that, movie came out, and everyone was like, oh, that's the same coil Hubbard that we know from around the way he lost his job and he died a few months later in June of 2007, Ricky Hobbs was convicted of manslaughter. He served two years before he was released. Unlike John who became a better man. After Her being in Prison, Ricky was not, he did eventually admit that he did something wrong.

1:30:48 He also was super messed up from probably participating in the violence, from the sexual abuse from Gertrude, from being in prison. He pretty much just had a nervous breakdown after his release. He died of cancer in 1972, at the age of 21, Lester and Betty never recovered. Lester had actually been to the house, only a few weeks before Sylvia died and so he blamed himself for never seeing what was going on. He died in Fontana, California February 2013. At the age of 86 Betty, did not forgive Laster and she divorced him a year after the trial, she remarried and she died.

1:31:29 May 29th 1998 at seventy eight. Seventy one years old. She was buried next to her own brother at the Crown Hill Cemetery. Diana Likens definitely stayed off the radar. She was not charged with anything because the state thought that she did his best. She could, she told all the authorities, just nobody listened. Yeah. Weirdly enough recently both Diana and her husband got lost in a California, like Wilderness. Oh no. And they were stranded in their car, for two weeks. Her husband died from a heart attack in the car, but Diana was found her. Children are taking care of her still, okay? Okay, finally, Jenny, Likens lived with immeasurable guilt about what happened to her sister.

1:32:14 She was actually adopted by the family of the prosecutor Leroy. New Leroy had several daughters that were the same age as her and they tried very much to love her as she had never been loved before. She has been described as a nervous wreck loose after this, she lived her life very much afraid of everything. Even though she was afraid when Gertrude second trial happened, she came forward and she spoke out against Gertrude being released, which is I'm sure the deciding factor between her because when Gertrude went to prison, she became a model prisoner. Of course everybody called her mom, she never did anything wrong. So when that trial happened in 72, they were like why shouldn't we just like Let Her Go time sir. If she's already been in prison for like five years and Jenny was like, excuse me.

1:33:05 Sorry about that. But um, She would beat me and my sister horrific lie constantly. So yeah, that Jenny, mustered up enough, courage to face her abuser in court in 1972, friends of Jenny, say that the Fatal heart attack that she died from in 2004 actually happened because a pizza delivery driver startled. Her when he knocked on the door, she was 54 years old and she lived in Beech Grove. Most of the people who are listening right now know this story. Like I said, the tales of would happen if Sylvia were pulled from many different bits of testimony from all of the children, Gertrude's torture crew of kids. It is highly likely that.

1:33:53 There is more, that happened that we will never know, because there are probably things that Gertrude it on her own, and she died. She took that to her grave. Yeah. One thing that I will say, is that, I think it's very interesting that everyone who took part in abusing this girl died fairly quickly after it, was all said, and done. Yeah, like maybe we didn't get Justice in the courts, but karma took its Jose karmic like virtue got a present and it was like, oh no, you don't get to enjoy your life. Lung cancer, you spend your last couple of years and Horrible pain.

1:34:36 But yeah. It's interesting, right? She ended up worse than she started. Yeah. But like it was almost exactly the same way that her own mother had been. Yeah. With her which doesn't make anybody feel any better. No, not no. I still think she's a piece of shit and I'm glad I felt sorry for her before, just a brief moment, you feel bad for the gating, beginning of the episode. Yeah, I was, I felt sorry for great when her, she's been abused by her mom, you feel so bad for her and then as things go. On pretty much from the point where she likes starts sexually, like, abusing her like boyfriend. Yeah, and like sexually coercing him. I'm like, oh no, this one is like, she's never gotten better this last.

1:35:21 Yeah, I went down this path because I wanted to know who the monster was. And it turns out she was a monster for a very long time and they were very few, very few redeeming qualities from Gertrude been is ASCII or Paula baniszewski or Stephanie ban is a snow there. Really didn't have any because like I mean they were abused but that's not a redeeming quality for anybody. So it's one of those weird situations were like, you come across somebody. Like I'll use the example of Chris Brown. After that situation happened with Rihanna. He came went on like late night TV and he like talked about how like it was wrong but he himself was abused by his father when he was little.

1:36:01 And like all you can say in that situation is like Okay, go get help. Yeah it said of further like spreading the horribleness. I was about to say. What's that? What's the phrase we use? I mean me and Terror use it. What was that for the kids? Like not to. It's like a generational thing that General generational trauma occurs and shit like that. Yeah, we do. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Like don't don't spread that to your kid. Oh, I was just thinking about that the other day like I was like, listen I have spent a considerable amount of time and Energy and money going through therapy. So that I do not.

1:36:43 Bring down the same trauma that I experienced. When I was gonna before, I was adopted. Like, in this case alone, I couldn't go into much detail about the situation with the force-feeding because that is something that happened to me when I was very little. And it is why I have such a weird awful relationship with food even now. Hmm. And that happened to me like before I was like, six years old that my grandmother would try and force feed me food. It is, trauma that still makes me like choked up every once in a while. So, I'm like, Jesus, like before you procreate, make sure you have had put your ducks in a row. Yes.

1:37:24 But I hope you can bring us into something a little lighter. Brittany, I'm gonna tell you this story broke my heart. Oh, great. This is just a bad time. No, no, no, your story broke my heart about what happened to Sylvia Likens? I didn't know it was as extensive as it was. I didn't know. Like when it started like yeah, I almost cried like, twice, it was terrible when I was writing this. Then like you were like, oh, I can't okay to the podcast. Saturday's. Like what about tomorrow? You're like oh I can't do it yet. What about tomorrow? I was putting it off because I didn't want to tell the story. They put it all today.

1:38:09 We did bump it like two times recording. OK. It's ok. I'm sorry for anybody. Who's listening, who felt particularly traumatized we did too. Unfortunately, do it for the content? Yeah, here's your content. Aunt, Edie's major some content enjoy. But yeah, no. This is one of those situations. Just frustrating. Frustrating. Frustrating, frustrating it never got better. Okay, well you got for us, let's lighten this move because this is the fuck, reach, a keyless. Okay, I'm gonna start this off by reading a quote to you.

1:38:50 Okay. I'm going to try to do it in my voice and your fancy voice actor, voice and know, and I'm gonna mock somebody. So I'm going to, I'm going to try to do it in his voice as much as I can, okay. In 2014. I had a nightmare where I'm a spirit hanging out with other spirits. And I show them this trick, I can do moving an object on a table without touching it. Like I like what I tried it against Paris to do during my investigations the denim suddenly in front of a door and I can't control my body and a door opens a 12-foot tall. Goat figure is standing there and dark black. Smoke comes out of his mouth and I'm forced to inhale it when I wake up my lungs hurt.

1:39:43 And I know that this was some serious shit. That meant something I'm sitting here trying to figure out what voice you were doing. I was that big ants. Oh my God. You're right. Okay, you're right. He does do that, like weird. Um, did you do to make fun? One of Michael's people. So that quote, was, from Zach's movie do, you know, house, like, watch that 18. I tried to watch it as much as I could. It has real mixed reviews on Reddit people. Some people are like, very angry about it. I kind of was just like, I don't know, like, I don't know why. I still like Zak Bagans.

1:40:31 I just do. I hate his voice so much. And I was like this, like how he was saying like the last part, the Poveglia Island episode from like way back like 20 seasons ago is one of my favorite episodes because that was the, that was one with the, what you call it but vaguely Island was where they had the Black Death. The people who were they put in Italy? Italy, sent the people who were dying from the plague down. Yes, right yes. Okay, it's a good episode. There's also a very long time ago but It's just like I hate how he he talks and his voice and like he talks like my kids are trying to imitate me.

1:41:13 Like, you're talking real good dude. You know what I mean? Hi, I'm Brian. The series of videos that they released during quarantine are some of my favorite because they go through and they talked about previous cases and they watch it, like, they washed it in like a movie theater by themselves and they talked about stuff and I thought like the behind-the-scenes nature of it is very interesting to me, but there is stuff that goes Hunters do that show that I don't like Like Yeah, from a like, TV show perspective. Yeah, absolutely. It's the same way that haunted on Netflix, like tries to make it seem more scary than it is. Yes, I have just given me the good story. You didn't need to like add the weird like here's the thing that bothers me, right? I'm watching a show, right? And they're trying to do EVPs mmm and there's background music and there's background sounds like I can't holy sounds. I can't hear that EVP?

1:42:01 Yeah. But anyway so talking Demon house. So yeah let me get a photo. Oh interesting I'm so surprised as much as I dislike Zak Bagans and maybe the Ghost Adventures crew because of you know just just as bad TV this is fucking bad TV and what is it maybe this is my version like you know like one of my co-workers watches The Bachelorette like religiously and she's like it's just good trash TV. Maybe Ghost Hunters for knows. He's good pair is it's bad paranormal TV and my love it. Oh my God. Watch it till the day. I die like. Then I'm a hornet like there.

1:42:41 But, you know, as much as I just like them, they're basically like everywhere. I try like I want to look everywhere, you want to go there? Yeah, everywhere. Exactly. So you know, I give that I gave it up to him for like, they're investigating side note. If you check the discovery Plus app because I should have sent you the password you did, there is a like three-hour-long like Pennhurst Asylum, like Type thing they stayed there for like well past like two weeks look Brittany his his movie was an hour and a half, it's not from him, it's another group, okay? But another group of people stay at Pennhurst for like two weeks. It's not bad. As what the sea level is our have reverse table trying to watch. The only wants to 20 minutes, it has like I'm done regular episodes are 45 minutes.

1:43:24 It's only like a double look. And then I was like, okay let me go I go back and try to finish watching it so I watched it for like another hour and I was like, okay, okay, you've seen most of it. Yeah, I see most of it. Okay, but did you watch their Tiger King episode? I did. That was comedy. I know I did not, and I was like, what does it got to do with paranormal stuff guys? Haunted Tigers. Well, no, they brought in cadaver dogs and got hit. Oh, for potential bodies. That might have been discarded on the property, like, tigers. Well know people that, I mean, Joe Exotic was doing some real. Oh, yeah, I know, I know.

1:44:05 So and they apparently like people who work there said that there was like an area on the outskirts, where they would like throw all the dead like carcasses for me, everything. And, at some point, they said somebody tried to like climb over a fence and they got got who and thrown in the pile, got it. I guess I'd watch that sometime whatever I'll do whenever whenever I'm feeling bored and that's happens to me. Like honestly lately, I've been falling asleep to go shows and I don't know if that's good for my general psych but like, I don't know. It's exact Megan's voice does make me feel sleepy. Yeah. Because it's boring as fuck anyway. Anyway, won't you my story today? Anyway, today I'll be going in to get the emmalin's haunting or the house of two hundred demons or as a lot of people who know Demon House.

1:44:55 Oh, I didn't know that was what it was called. Yeah. If so I feel bad because I definitely watch that whole little thing and I don't remember that at all being said, so, So I guess I have to give some credit to, you know, Zack for this since I did watch the movie and you know, some, so where's so our researchers are over that. Some of it, not all of it like a little the last part. Yes. That's all your games that last little bit and you gotta wait till the end of mystery here by right then, I will wait till the end. So, anyway, let's get to those stories. So in November 2011, When the Toya Emmons in her family, move into a house in Gary Indiana.

1:45:44 So it's her family is her mother Rosa, Campbell and her three children their ages are 7 9 and 12. The 12 year old is her daughter. The two other children are her sons. Okay, soon as I move in or I guess not as soon as moving but soon Some big black flies start to swarm in her clothes off. You know, how to have that close iPad porch, right? The same thing that always happens in every. Yeah, yeah. Basically, the main story which is that fly suddenly appear in the dead of winter, blah, blah, blah. It's in yeah, it's in December. If December 2011 and also in the Amityville house as well. That was a situation.

1:46:28 Yeah, Zach also mentioned that he thought this was going to be his next, a manner, the next Amity. Why do you see? Listen. A while. Since I watched I watched it. Like, as soon as it came out, I'll be really honest. I think I got Discovery plus so I could watch it and I just have been paying for it because now it's got so much good content on Discovery plus, I'm not doing any more clothes from until the end and so I'm done with this. But yeah, he did say that he knows will be the next Amity and it should run because because of the Flies and stuff any because it started with flies. So yeah, it's December. And you know how, you know, No everything dies. That's one reason why I love fall and winter is because flies die all bugs die.

1:47:13 They go or they hibernate whatever, I don't care what happens to him. They're not around me anymore. That's true, that's true. That's why I like to come out more in the fall and winter because I don't have to deal bugs. But you know, it's December. How are these flies, you know, out on a porch like this? Either way, the Flyers were killed. But for some reason the Flies were always come back Latoya's mom, Rosa Campbell is reported saying we killed them and kill them and killed them but they kept coming back. I mean I guess flies can come be around in a code time cold months in wintertime like inside your house, you keep it warm in there anyway so I I guess if like you're getting fruit from other places and the fruit dies because their stuff on the yeah, I think that's I mean, but these aren't fruit flies are like they said, they were like, what? Like I mean they can't survive freezing temps. No, there's no absolutely not.

1:48:18 And they don't hibernate, either most of them. Don't know. There are some hibernating five species from other countries. So next time, big ol Hornets. Oh my God, come back, that we great. Not the murder ones. Like the ones that attacked the cicadas, they scare the crap out of me. I just hate cicada killers. Yes, there's a bunch of them out front because it's the Cadence and it. No, they don't but they dive bomb the area and it scares the crap out of me when I'm waiting to go to work in the morning. So I end up walking out to, like, the street away from like, where the nests. Are they scared the crap out of Me, I see. I see. They just had a big stinky stinky B. They do have the big looks like a big singer but it's, I guess it just for the kicks, the part where they attack the cicada and murder it. It's not for us.

1:49:05 Like when I first saw home, when he first likes are appearing. I was like, what the fuck is this? Because I don't really like playing around stinky things. My one friend works in landscaping and one day, he likes showed up to a property and they were all over the place and he like called his boss. And was like what are these bugs? Yeah. And like his boss was just like R called cicada killer, as he said, if you don't want to Brave the landscape, you can just file this as a, in an inaccessible property. My God. He was like, they were scared. I was like, right here called me was like, have you ever heard of a cicada killer? And I'm like, I was just telling Mike a about these fuckers. The other day we were getting off the bus and they were all over these bushes near the bowling alley. It was a weird.

1:49:49 Yeah. Hmm. But anyway. But anyway, back to flies, we're all over the place tonight. I'm so sorry. People, listen, so next in the story, Rosa starts to see this shadowy figure just pacing out in the living room at night. So she goes to investigate, you know, see who the hell's in the house and as soon as she gets closer, the shadowy figure like vanishes. but, She found wet boot prints. Where is this figure was at? Oh no. Yeah. She also claims to have been choked by an unknown Force. Unfun in the house as well.

1:50:36 Yeah, I know it's not kinky at all. Not the kind of fun that we want. So let's do it. Latoya and Rosa, they claim to hear footsteps from the basement steadily making their way up the stairs. Then the basement door opens. And nobody would be there. There we go. Nice poop. Yeah. Okay so one night it's like some some sources say it's a sleepover I think it's it's a sleepover because that's what I get from those sources but some sources add some more stuff to it. So one night, one more toy is 12 year old daughter. She's having a sleepover in her grandmother's room. Was when her friends.

1:51:26 Now their relatives over at the house they're mourning a death of somebody in the family. When Latoya sees her daughter asleep floating above the bed. She yells to Rosa? Yeah, well she also rolls into coming to the room and check it out. So her Rosa other family members, they go into the room and days basically like this from round the bed and then they start praying around it. Oh God. And then like there's praying for a while and Eventually she stopped flowing.

1:52:10 I'm not sure it was the crazy guy. Yeah, I'm not sure if it was because of the the praying, but probably not. As, you know, she's just floating. She wakes up and she has no memory of this happening at all. Yeah, Sparrow the relatives that were there left and refused to come back ever. Ha, ha, I mean totally understandable, but still funny. Yeah, You're like oh we're gonna have a potluck. Do you want to come listen? Last time? One of your kids was like two feet above the bed. I'm gonna have to pass. It's like what your family knows that you got roaches like. Well you got those really got to know. You got those ghosts up in there? Oh my God.

1:53:02 It'll be me and a ghost chilling during this talk a selfie. There's like a random hand behind you. These are demons not go straight that I wanted to get enzyme cool with ghosts but not demons. And really I'm not cool with ghosts. If we're honest, this is true. I just want to hang out and watch them. So during this time the kids are missing school irregularly behaving, weird request problems that raise concern. Latoya had her physician come out. His name is oh I did not look up. His last name was I'm going to say his first name is name was Jeffrey. Jeffrey basis.

1:53:44 No Jeffrey only okay. Own only yes. Something how do you spell it? Oh and yeu KW. You know, thank you. See exactly. So anyway and he Witnesses the kids acting like they're delusional. So the kids are taken to a hospital and an IR. Oh boy. He seems like he's fine but the youngest the 701 he's about he's like thrashing around and like fighting everything. I don't know when this happens that this next part I want to tell you but I'm going to say When they're back home, but I'm going to just add it in here right now at some point, the nine-year-old goes flying across the room.

1:54:38 Oh no, no explanation at all. Nobody knows what happened to you just was drawn by an invisible force, okay? But yeah, so at home, I guess not at home. So, They're at the hospital, right? So DCS or CPS whatever you want to call it the different names. Different states is all the same, I think any call welfare. Yeah. You know, they come check on the kids at the hospital I think I remember this part of the movie. Okay so the case manager Valerie Washington has a privilege of doing the initial best investigation while she was interviewing is seven-year-old. He starts growling.

1:55:29 It's growling at her. So now I got this from Wikipedia and that Wikipedia says that this happens with I thought it said with a nine-year-old but I think the nine-year-old does the, I don't know. Anyway, they mean, I don't mix up a little bit. Okay, so be careful, resources kids. Anyway, the younger boy, he grabs. So she's in the room. Interviewing the seven year old, but he's in a room with his nine-year-old, brother. Okay. So the younger boy grabs, his brothers throat and start, you know, starts choking him. It takes a couple adults to pry his hands off of him. later on Valerie and an RN, they, they talk to the boys and accept another separate exam room and This is where it starts getting weird.

1:56:24 So again the seven-year-old is growing at his brother, then he starts saying things, he says um it's time to die and but you know what kids do be saying, weird stuff like that. I know he think you my kids do kids are weird well, you says it in like a deep voice. He's like it's time to die and I will kill you. Okay, things like that. At this time. Oh right. Rosa is also in this exam room with them. So that's their grand mom and she's like holding the nine year olds hands and he's like, kind of head-butting her in the stomach for some reason, I'm not sure why.

1:57:12 But you know, he started acting weird so he begins to smile a very, very creepily and as he still holding his, what Rosa? He starts walking backwards towards the wall. I do remember that. Down. And like, he doesn't stop at the war. He starts to climb up the wall backwards. Yep. Like Spider-Man style. Yeah, so holding hands with Rosa. I remember this. Okay, he's in flips from the wall over Valerie. And I said, this whole time you still holding roses hits in Like is just creepy.

1:57:58 Like how are you doing this? We were just walking up to a like, as yeah. I saw this and I was like, hmm, that seems weird. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, right. So there's this picture, I'm gonna be seeing this picture. There's this picture of the house is of the exterior of the house, of course, and in it, you can see like White is Shadow and I don't know what you would call that. It's a white shadow, okay? I just I love saying it because I love watched her bubble in his like white shadow. Okay, this is way too shadow in one of the windows, no one was home at the time so it was published by the Indy star. Okay?

1:58:45 With the caption saying it was taken by the him him on the police, but the Hammond, Police chief said that it wasn't an official police photo and it wasn't taken by any police authorities. So, okay. I don't know. I don't know where they got this picture from. So yeah, whatever know I could have just been something. Somebody did. Yeah. True, true. True. Okay. So DCS swoops in and they take emergency custody of the kids Valley. Washington reported that the children were experiencing the spiritual and emotional distress. Now, this was all you know, temporary placement of course, so DCS.

1:59:36 They said that Latoya neglected, the kids write it like why she? She neglected their education by Having them in school regularly. Apparently this was also an issue back in 2009 when she did the same thing with them. So he is like three years before they moved into this house. So I don't know what the issue was back. Then the toy is said that the spirits would make the kids sick. Or that they would, you know, keep them up all night long, right? Okay. That's why I didn't go to school. The kids were evaluated by a psych by some psychologists and they came to the conclusion that the kids were probably just playing along with their mothers Theory or you know, how her stories and you know, just trying to appease her.

2:00:28 No, no. I understand what they're saying. Yeah. So what she's at her like her Wits End? Right now the kids are gone demons in the house. People think she's crazy like it's rough. So she comes. So in comes I'm Reverend Michael. Oh I did not get your last name looked up either. It's I'm gonna say, magnet Maggie Maggie, not Interviews the family. Well, the toy in her mom and he believes them like he notices that you know the house is weird. Energies off Vibes not you know he did a Vibe checking it was not right. He determined that they were being tormented by demons as well as Latoya was being like she's probably possessed by a demon.

2:01:22 And he told Latoya and Rosa, she's not saying a house. So they go live with some relatives for a while. So we're going to fast forward this because I'm just going to get to the meat disposal, the end part, I guess. Um, so Rebel micro he comes in, he exercises, the house and Latoya, right? And is accessed. So, Latoya is then reunited with her children. And after everything happens, they move to Indianapolis. So that's basically the story of that.

2:02:03 So let's go into some of the Skeptics. I'll just do like the Skeptics. I know, I know, but I gotta because they're good Skeptics, okay? Like I said, she had her physician Jeffrey coming, right? And he was as he said he was skeptical the entire incident. Like he didn't like when he came to know about it with the kids and stuff like that. He said, he didn't notice anything paranormal. He just said that they had delusions of ghosts in their house and or hallucinations. And like I said, the children had a history irregular attendance. So that was like a claim that was placed back in 2009. But yeah she she claimed that no it was the ghost that were keeping them up.

2:03:00 Let's see what else, right? Okay. So this is funny Charles Reid, he's a landlord that, you know running this house out to her. He said he never experienced any Supernatural events at the house, right? I do remember that the new owner doesn't feel anything. Right. Huh, that's funny. I'll get to that later. Also, like his prior assignments to her moving in there. They never experience anything either. He said that Latoya was behind on lease though and use the the Paranormal claims to avoid making payments to her. They can rent payments.

2:03:43 I don't know. Because I remember seeing the lady and she was like she was so afraid of anything to do with the house. That is true. She would not The fact that he had been in it at all, she was like you're not allowed in here. Yeah. So you can't even come be near me. You were in, she's like, have you already been in the house? Yes, you can't. Come here because Denton zach-bots it eventually, right? Yes, this is where. Hey, yeah. This is actually what we're going to do next. So, yeah, in 2014, mr. Zachary Baggins Beggin Beggin Beggin. I'm sorry. He says that the beat of every episode. I'm sorry. I'm Zak Bagans. Zak Bagans.

2:04:26 Remember, it was all over the news and then he said a lot of like weird stuff happened. You didn't kept stopping him from doing the investigation, want it? Yeah. It I guess it took him about three years to actually film this this movie. He said that like there was legal stuff, there was like people quitting on him. I'm sure that always happens at that. Yeah I mean people quitting and people getting sick because of the location. Yeah. but yeah, so he bought the house in 2014 and so This, you know, this is public, everybody knows about this stuff, you know, so one of his medium friends gets in touch with him, right? Um, did you see this part of the friends that died? No, it's a guy.

2:05:19 Okay? Because there was another person that died, I think while he was making, it's a Chris Fleming, okay? So you see, text Zach and I want to read you this text message. Okay, okay, so it says hey bro, hope you are right and not possessed already. Just got off the phone with Adam Bali be safe. So visions of this demon being very, very large, almost like a hulking type figure horns, turns her back and centaurian. Feet, be careful Adams things. It's an 8 out of the 10. On a demonic scale below Satan himself when it comes to possession. Like one of one of the generals Well, I think the thing that was interesting to me was they never really spent like a whole lot of time there.

2:06:09 No, not really. They, that, that was surprising to me. It wasn't a very big property. No, no. I was actually most interested by the interviews with the like social workers and attorneys and people. Yeah, folks that were there you like her family? Also frightened. Yeah, her family that came on woman who Like she went there, like she was there for the crawling up. The walls said. Yeah, this is Valerie, and then she quit and moved to another state. Yep. And was like, I'm good. I'm done with working with those definitely Valerie, children forever. Like, for me, I feel like that is the kind of thing that legitimize this stuff because that's somebody who's seen, like probably some of the worst situations can ever imagine. Yeah.

2:06:54 Like something that would make someone who's an in an on-site in-house, social worker. Quit their job and never come back to it. They saw something terrible. Yeah. But um, Yeah I guess so. Yeah exact you know this is his house. You know? He Film this movie there, then demolish the building right in 2016. So, I'm believing that because I believe what they were saying, was that it was becoming because he wasn't actively living in it.

2:07:35 Yeah, it was becoming a site for people to show up and try and scare themselves for breaking in order this waters, getting calls from the cops consistently. So it was just easier to demolish the property. Yeah. And now it's just empty and like, you know what, you're going to do pitch a tent on the property, you'd be all right. Oh my I God. And, um, So you saw the movie, right? Oh yeah. So they're like, I think a couple times he did get like, you won't, he felt bothered, he felt possessed. He had lost track of time. Like, um, one of the security videos, he was having an argument with one of the guys, one of the camera guys freaked out.

2:08:21 Yeah. And like lost it and then the camera guy said that he saw something on the basement, the hallway it was somewhere back at the Tell you like because I believe it was Aaron or one of the other people who does the tour is like the actual ghost things with him. Yes. Aaron like pulled his camera and you just see the guy like Pace in the hallway. Having a total and complete meltdown. They were like a hope. They weren't a hotel, a hotel nearby. And he was, he just ran out of his room. He started, he was loud and cussing. He just ran into something. And then he said he went to get in the elevator and he opens the door. And yes, I, yeah. And he was cussing at it and he's just like to the top of the, yeah. He's like what's going to El?

2:09:01 Exact was like was home to elevator. Bro, is like what's going on? Is like nothing whatever's in the whatever if anything's in here is a bitch. Like that's what you're saying. He's like your because he was called to take a bitch the whole time and was scared too. Yeah. Like It's just I was just okay well maybe you saw something okay but saw something but no Zach himself was like possessed. Zach is as had those experiences before. Yeah. And there's always lots of, you know, discussions about it. It's obviously not a traditional possession. Yeah, in what we think of because there's there's different stages, two possessions.

2:09:45 This is true. And we've talked about those in past podcasts. Yeah, and warns episode 02 Warren episodes back-to-back. This is true. But yeah, there's lots of because you have the what do you call that? The it's not Obsession. It's the oppression. This oppression infestation and I think I feel like if I say she is a beginning, the first one of those moments that Zach has are more oppression based, its him aware that there is something they're trying to bother him. Yeah, I don't I don't think he's really fully, you know, possess because that's something that doesn't happen like that.

2:10:28 That, you know, it takes a while. Well, the process, the, the oppression process is breaking the person down. You have trouble sleeping you. You can't eat, you become physically weak. And then once you're physically incapable of fighting back, the thing, trying to gain access to you. That's where your possession. Yep. Takes over cell. But yeah, that was my story of the Demon House. More demons. Look at you. I like, I don't know. Demons are interesting. See that's what's so interesting to me. I am thoroughly. That's a real fear for me demons. He possessed just waking up in the middle of night.

2:11:10 See, one Shadow Demon in your corner, just Spider-Man and off the wall. Well, no, I have a situation in college where I definitely felt the whole concept of Of Oppression. I started having these nightmares and everybody in the nightmares were we were all people I love and they all somehow ended up dying in front of me every time and they happen to consistently and constantly for weeks and weeks and weeks. So I'm trying to go to school. Yeah. And the dorm and my dorm room by myself. I'm I just one of those things where I'll never know, was, I hallucinating from lack of sleep. He had a mean, but I was sitting in my room by myself. I remember there was a situation with the TV turning on like, more than once and me actively turning it off. I remember looking at the wall and my roommate, had this stupid fucking picture of these like two guys carrying each other. And one of the middle was like drunk and they were carrying the one.

2:12:14 It was said, teamwork. I remember looking at the picture and it looks like the picture changed and then I remember having a solid sense that there was something in the room with me and it was just out of range of me, being able to see it like breathing, I could hear it and I legitimately like covered myself in a pill and I was like, oh my God, my Bible is under my bed and I can't go look for it because, you know, you have those like, tall College beds, you're right? And I called one of my friends, the only as like I called other people and people didn't pick up and I called my one friend possibly the most religious person I know.

2:12:57 And I like I was freaking out and I was just like, I just need you to like, talk me through. I don't know what to say, I don't know what to read. I don't know what to do in the situation, and then the next day while, Oddly enough, she had like a whole container of holy oil and she like showed up the next day and she's just like, oh, yeah. Whenever I move somewhere new, my mom, like, she's like, my pastor told me how to like bless places before I move in. Yeah, and it's honestly something that I do now to, you know what, I move into a new location II believe in smudging things, and I believe in also blessing properties. That's very funny. You know why? Because in this story, so today it was told the same thing to, you know, get Olive oil and water blessed and you know, bless the house and Stuff, Plus her children like putting on the children's foreheads. Oh, right.

2:13:46 Right. But that's after it's already there. Yeah. So before I move into a location, like but when I like from that point on when I moved to a new apartment or a new dorm, yeah, I do certain things before I move in, but the funny part is like she did Issue splashing on the oil and stuff. Everywhere is then they claim to find like this substance, like on the blinds and stuff, like, oily, and slick, and sticky and like, It was not just the stuff you get splashed everywhere. But they said that they like tried to get it tested and they couldn't figure out what it was. I didn't see that part. I mean, if it is the same thing, that means she was going pretty ham. Yeah. Just like because it was only supposed to like coat. Every surface. It was dripping down the blinds.

2:14:28 I saw that. Yeah. Cuz didn't he also see that same substance? Yeah, it was there during the recording. Yeah, so that wouldn't have been left over. I hope not from years later. I hope not. But yeah, I just remember when he tried to talk to the one that the one woman and then I remember that, didn't he have the one like ladies kids there? And the one girl tried to yank her own life after she was in the head. Yes. Oh my God. So much stuff I haven't because I forget who it was but she as like before they even got to the house like a niece or nephew who got brought back and that girl that girl tried to hurt herself after they left. Yeah she did like we had before he even got into the house like she felt something like kick her or something like that. At.

2:15:09 And I mean, the other factor to here is I hate to say this, but like, Entities, or things of that nature. Like these are intelligent beings according to the rules and The Lure true, when you focus on who you thought was weaker, if your goal was to take them over normally. Yes, that's what you're supposed to do, right? So like maybe it wouldn't be the kind of thing where everybody who comes into contact with that house is bothered by it.

2:15:51 Hmm, maybe for some right maybe because of the previous abuse. And things like that. That happened within that family, they were already in a weakened State. Might be, you know, and well, like why would you go for the harder person to convert? Yeah, that's a movie thing. Where they're like, a, how I'm a demon. I'm going to try and get the priest. You're not. You want the one who's? Well. Yeah. You want the kid? Who's got the Ouija board playing by themselves in the middle of the night? That's the kids. You take out? Yes. Get you a Damien. But anyway, that was our longer podcast than usual.

2:16:32 Yeah, I kind of figured it would be longer if you listen to thank you. If you listened all the way to the end thank you so much. Yes, I do appreciate it. We love you guys. And one thing that I forgot to also mention, was that as far as the patreon goes, if you subscribe in the first month, I am going to I might keep this up indefinitely for patrons but But I will put either your name or your social media handle and a video and it will live on my tech talk, which currently has 760 thousand people, we are chugging along to a million. We're probably going to get there by December goodness possibility here. Yeah. By the end of the year so you will get to see you know you'll get to have your name as someone who supported us forever. Yeah, also also and like the title card for the YouTube. If we ever eventually catch up with putting our videos, whenever I see you, you post like two at a time, and I'm like, oh look at that.

2:17:33 I'm trying, I understand. Listen, you're doing what I don't want to do so I totally appreciate you whenever I'm bored. I'm like oh you know I could do right now. I'm a little more videos to YouTube. I appreciate your bright eyes. Like oh look at that. There's a Ryan Faye. Copeland it just went up. But yeah, thank you. So Much for listening. You can always find me every day or every other day on cop podcast that Tick-Tock.com. Yeah, to time.com. I guess took it is i.com. But mainly it's the website it's called podcast. You can always view our website which is www.hyken.com and that has links to every social media that we are on. I have been trying to post more on Tick-Tock Facebook.

2:18:13 I'm trying to spread out, you know, post popular videos that are popular on Tick-Tock on other platforms. I am contemplating potentially making more exclusive content that is only eligible for patrons only right so that they'll be Tick-Tock Style videos, but they will only be on patreon and let's see that way. Like stuff that Tick-Tock has been like taking down. Hmm, I can post on there and not have to worry about it being censored. What I do have like two stories thing on patreon. So yeah. Brian is going to be trying to move, I believe next month twitch to Friday's several times a month. Fridays and Sundays.

2:18:56 I'm trying to I'm trying to do more than a. I love it Triumph and more active. Yes we would love your support there and yeah if you left a really nice review, We like you love so much. Someone recently got mad that we didn't like the Yorkshire Ripper documentary and I'm not sorry. Oh well no, no, sorry documentaries for every person. Yeah, I'm sorry. It was like personally I can't watch the Chris W 1 not because it's bad quality but because it's so good it's unsettling and upsetting. Yeah I watched it. I was like, oh my God, all the footage of the family just is so like got wrenching. So you know some stuff doesn't sit well with certain people but we're happy you're here and we thank you for your support. Yes, good night.

2:19:42 Good night.