Episode 27: Richard Speck & The Townhouse Massacre

0:20 Hey, everybody. In serial killer country. My name is Brittany. Ransom, my name is Brian Joyner, and this is when Killers get caught, a podcast devoted to deep dives, into the lives and psyche. So, the Killer's we love to learn about about each week. Brian, I find a True Crime Story that resonated with us and then I discuss one, well-known or lesser known killer and go into their childhood lives, methodology. And most importantly how they got caught and then we'll get a little spooky and learn something about the Cryptids or the supernatural. And before we start, we just want to let everybody know that our patreon is live. Yes. Okay. We have 40 Years of start at $5 a month up to $50 a month and you get everything from an extra episode of conspiracy Crypt which is us talking about conspiracies.

1:08 We have merged discounts access to a patreon only Discord so you can have I guess what? Like a monthly private chat with us. And speaking of March March is absolutely available online Killers, get caught.com, just click on the store, get stickers, hats, crop tops, and regular t-shirts and carry all the way up to 5x and sizes. So if you've wanted to support us, this is the easiest way. And we have a patron goal of 500 patrons. And I've agreed to allow Brian to make me stay at the Lizzie Borden house and participate in a ghost time. It's gonna be fun. If we get 500 patrons, it's going to be fine. I don't know. You know what? When I was editing a last week's episode and you mentioned blankets and in the beginning and then I was like oh yeah you get blankets, do it?

1:57 Like I did. I just hear you say get blankets and emerge stop. I was like, oh my God, not just do that. That's all right. I'm sorry. You can't get blankets. I keep saying, I want to buy a blanket. Also, some pillows. So yeah, there's because I want to put them in the back of my videos so that's it has like the logo right there. Next to me. Look once we get we're Gonna get fitted sheets and then regular sheet has to make you have when Killers. Get caught bed. Yes. Oh my God, wouldn't want that. You know what, though they would want it. If it had like every single like picture of a serial killer or something, they'll be awesome. But what it will say, if I am working on a very secret secret thing that's probably going to be like a year for us to create my God, but it's very cool and I have somebody doing the art slowly for it. So okay.

2:47 But yeah. That's just your little reminders of ways you can support us. And this week in True Crime, I have a weird story and this person has a person who did this crime has not been caught, but it's weird. I'm down for weird stories. So the headline says, body of missing Oklahoma team or it says, actually read it because it's a horrible headline, but body of Oklahoma team missing, since 2018 is found dead. Decomposed in a basement. Homeowner says he had no idea. That's a little sauce right there, my guy. Yeah, absolutely. Well, the woman's name was Margarita. They called her Maggie Sandoval.

3:31 She was 19 years old when she vanished in 2018. I guess it's near Oklahoma University and they're trying to figure out like who did this in general. But it's a whole lot of weird stuff. So her family realized she was missing when she stopped calling her mom, which is, you know, pretty normal when you're in college and for three years, nobody knew anything. And then they got an anonymous tip. To search a house in Norman Oklahoma, for a dead body in the basement, they found a large black box and according to the police report, the body was wrapped in numerous layers of thick plastic, pretty much 20 to 30 layers of plastic Norma's, police detectives Sean, Judy wrote that officer saw a liquid leaking from the box, as well as insects escaping.

4:20 And then when they got closer and smelled, the odor of decomposition, Opposition. They called in the crime scene investigators. They've since identified that this is Maggie and they're trying to figure out the cause of death right now. What's interesting is that like the homeowner is like I have no idea. He liked when they came to his door with the search warrant. He was like, I don't know about a body but sure, come on in. Yeah. Now she's been missing since 2018 and the current homeowner moved in in 2019, but he allowed one of his friends to like, store the stuff from his apartment in his basement. This all just seems Very weird.

5:05 And that friend was someone related to Maggie Sandoval? Oh, like related related or like they were like friends with her. So it does the friend who stored the items is a relative of Sandoval who had been living at an address where she had been receiving her social security payments, because she had a disability, Her sister says that they had actually wanted to legally take over like her caretaking and so there's a lot of like layers to this like was she killed for Social Security payments? Yeah. But people knew she was like Dad immediately, there's just so many unanswered questions. Like first first thing that's weird, not on this call. And in the homeowner doesn't know, so that it's not on his caller.

5:54 Must have been the person who did this Ray, So goodness and then. Okay. And then for the homeowner yet, this black box in your basement, you don't question. He'd never go down into the basement and all exactly as you have like your washer and dryer up on the second floor which is side note. My ideal living situation that my washer and dryers on the same floor as my bedroom. Because who wants to walk down two flights of steps to wash your clothes but like so did he never go in the basement? Is that the situation? Because I feel like if you checked it out at all, it had a weird smell. And another thing that was interesting to me, Is what's the weather like in Oklahoma that she still decomposing three years later, was she at some point Frozen? And then it started to thaw because after three years, there should not be insects and leakage happening, I mean, but did the plastic slow down.

6:45 I just want thinking that's what I'm thinking the the layers of plastic may have slowed it down and then after a while, it just started leaking out. We have a search warrant was May 14th, they've just discovered her identity. Recently after going to have to do lots of things. But yeah, so that's that's like it's so interesting to me. That's why I want to go to the Body Farm. God I just want to know all the different things that can happen and how it affects you. It's just I don't know. That's it's, it's very interesting that story and it's very weird. And also one of the things that's interesting to me is that whenever I About like someone died in their apartment and people didn't know people like how didn't people know the smell and I like always work out the story that like literally oh yeah four doors down somebody died and we didn't know. Yeah like and all it just smelled weird. Like I don't know how to explain it and then when I've been Googling like this, the the bacteria that happens when you begin to decompose or like once you really get into the gross bits of decomposition, they're talking about hundreds of different, smells hundreds of different, Bacterias like and they all give off different smells at different times and like because we didn't get the gross gross. It just smelled like weird.

8:07 It's not weird. Smell it smells extra sweet. But in a way that was really sweet. Yeah. But in a gross way and so people reported it to the apartment complex and I went to work and then when I guess during the day they like opened, everybody's apartment to see where the smell was coming from, and eventually they got to his Yeah, discovered it. But yeah, so, I'm like there's so many questions, because I'm like, what was what there had to have been some scent, but what was the set? Yeah. And this relative that store their stuff in this home, they just worried contacted at all. Well, one of Maggie's relative. Exactly. So then whoever the homeowner is he is, somehow involved in this circle connected, and then.

8:53 Yeah. And then the sister said that because she had a mental illness, other members of the family, wanted to become her primary caretakers to get her, Social Security payment. Some like it's a massive family cover-up. Hmm. Of people trying to like, it's gonna sound something like that. Yeah, I mean, I have it a couple times and I lived in Philadelphia, they found like elderly, people, like locked in like other family members basements and they were just like collecting their Social Security checks. Yeah. It happened a few times. When I lived in Philly. Wow, I was like, we got to look out for our elders. People are fucking depraved, apparently. Now, you got also look Gout for your family members who are disabled to because definitely shh. But anyway, that was my story for the week. What you got for me?

9:35 God, starting off with a friggin bang and the, the person I talk about it doesn't get any better. Well this week. All right. Really? This headline to you says Brighton cat. Killer is Steve both quit. Quit quit. He's 54. He is jailed for five years for killing Nine, Cats and maiming. Seven War. Where did this happen? Every nine months, animal cruelty campaign. This happened in East Sussex. Okay? You said bright and I was like Island, only bright 90's in the UK. Yeah. Yeah. Why was he just marking cats? I'm not sure, but then he better hope the internet doesn't get a hold of him.

10:20 Goodness gracious, but it's says actual real Navy. Gunner. Dubbed, the Brighton cat killer has been jailed for 25 years after being found guilty for killing. I catch him eating 7, and this has happened over what to say. That's actually a total of 15. It cats. He attacked. Yeah, succeeded in murdering nine of them, you know, 16? Yeah. And seven just survived. His attack. Yeah, and this happened for nine months. Oh wow. To a month. Yeah, so it says he approached animals that work, you know, Passover coaster house, you know, outdoor cats after is Neighbors pets. Well, closer, their house. I'm not sure his house, but, you know, he would just appreciate he just be walking around like this cat lives there. I know you live there, so I'm gonna kill you by that would be like, you know, I can't stand you. I don't know if it was this is way worse than that lady. Who likes stole a cat when they Ubers and that's what I thought of like.

11:17 When I saw this story and I was like, another cat story. Lovely. Wow. People are just, I don't know why you so mean to cats cats are well, awesome. Okay. It says, his Killing Spree, brought fear to pet owners across the seaside resort, who was too scared to let their cats out between October 2018 in June, She was 19. He's got the you're not supposed to let your kids out because they like destroy local birds the cats. Yeah. Like if you can keep them inside, I mean that makes sense. So, I mean more than likely when the everyone was afraid to take, let their cats out the bird population, flourish, any suspect, it probably skyrocketing, he's probably helping out in his own stupid way but yeah, he was caught after an owner of One killed cat set up a CCTV overlooking Alleyway outside his house and call him attacking his final victim.

12:18 Good job. Yeah. But yeah, did he have anything to say about this when he got caught? I mean, there's probably a video, there's a video of him being questioned about it. I've watched it, I just want to know, like, did he say anything? I'm pretty sure he has something to say about it. I was he just like y'all can leave me alone. Hey, leave me alone. Let me kill these cats. Yeah. Oh my God. But yeah, there's I mean there's just I like to Justice the Justice True Crime Story is I find they're really nice because they're Justice for the the cat population and their owners so well. I mean all this is people are set. That's sad.

13:02 Yeah yeah bummer When Killers get caught is sponsored by the magic class Boutique. Now, why does that name sound so familiar? Well, it's because as a business is ran by our very own Britney, that's right. The magic class Boutique is not only a black-owned business, its way woman-owned as well. This is a jewelry company, that makes some pretty awesome earrings. Reading from cute little sushis 2spooky mermaid skeletons, there are even adorable, son. Defense keychains, for those just in case moments, and introducing this Arrow collection, this set of earrings is based off of serial killers and the official merch for the podcast.

13:57 The Collection features, everything is serial killer, would need to pull off their crimes from hunting knives at the beginning of the crimes to Warden keys for when they eventually get caught. Check out the magic class.com today, where You can use our promo code caught to receive 15% off of your online order. That's th e, magicc, elas p.com and use promo code cult for 15% off. And make sure you tell Brittany that I sent you. - speaking of bombers. Oh yeah, we heading into another Massacre. This is one of the the first random just killing massacres in the US.

14:53 And I was reminded of this killer because I covered one of his victims in my women who survived series on Tick Tock, and well, if I say the crime of the century, do you know what I'm talking about? Probably not, or the townhouse Massacre, definitely not happened in Chicago, July 13th, into July 14th, 1966, this man killed eight, nursing students. His name is Richard Speck I know that name. Mhm. Interested me for a couple reasons. Well, first thing is that I find it interesting that this might be one of the first instances of I was too drunk and high to remember murdering eight people and then he somehow managed to avoid the death penalty, but after he died a video where he and other inmates were pretty much having a drug-fueled orgy. Was mailed to the press and he was very famously. Quoted in that video, that was shown to politicians saying. If they knew how much fun I was having in here, they would cut me loose.

16:05 Hmm, so that like sort of reignited, the conversation on capital punishment and the 90s when that video was released. Well, there you can still see clips of it? You you can they don't show the the sex, right? Of course. Yeah, well yeah, that's this guy is weird and it's just us a lot. You're going to sympathize with him in some ways and then in other ways not so much. Okay? But we'll start with the humble beginnings of Richard. Benjamin spec born on December 6, 1941 he was the seventh of eight children born in the small town of Kirkwood Illinois shortly after he was born his father Benjamin And moved them to Monmouth.

16:52 So that Dad could work in a warehouse, Dad wasn't really highly educated, and he did a lot of hard labor jobs to support his family. Richard and his younger sister. Carolyn were significantly younger than the four older sisters. And two older brothers. Because of that, Richard definitely was very close to his dad. But Dad worked like really long hours because he was the sole Breadwinner. And so pretty much, he had his hyper-religious mother, Mary Margaret and his sister. Caroline was really his only like friend when he was growing up and the both of them definitely had one hell of a time dealing with their moms religious Obsession. Look, if you're a kid who grew up near any sort of fundamentalism, they should sound pretty familiar, you know, the punishment for acting out.

17:40 At all doing childish. Things is damnation in Hell Fire. And on top of that, Mary was what's called a teetotaler which was a mid 19th century, movement of people who abstained from alcohol. So, and it's like, it's not enough for you to abstain. You got to be a little bit overbearing to like, you gotta, you gotta push your beliefs on people, too. Huh. Mary was definitely a little bit jealous of the relationship between Richard and Benjamin because she had raised all the other children exclusively. Hmm. And so here's the little boy and like, they, like, you have children.

18:25 So do you have a A child. That's more like you. I mean they're both equal parts me but Cassandra. I'd say she acts more like me because like well, that's funny because all I hear when we're on live stream. Is that girl screaming her head off? Okay, I'm pretty sure I was like them. Well, I just went like the thing here. Was that Benjamin was a very quiet calm guy. And so was Richard. And so I think that that sort of energy was something that they both kind of I've done. So Mary Margaret, like I said, she's a good standard, she's hyper-religious and then she starts kind of suffering from empty nest syndrome. As all of the older children are moving out getting married. She like, like when I say struggling, I mean, like sobbing.

19:13 When she had to send Richard and Carolyn to school, like, big bad arm, In school, Richard was polite, but he struggled with reading and paying attention and they realized that he needed glasses, but he hated them and he wouldn't wear them unless his dad told him to, and he hated it because he didn't like when people looked at him, he actually disliked any attention of any form. He wouldn't read him publicly. If he was, he wouldn't read publicly in class if he was called on. This was something that the school was trying to work on with him and then when he was six in 1947, Benjamin died from a heart attack.

19:54 Oh no. And this is really hard on Richard, I believe it. Like I said, they had that really calm quiet Bond and all, you know, fix your old. Richard wanted was to grow up and be like his dad. You know, I've spoken about the loss of my mother and the way that I walked around like pretty aimless for the next like two years after she died the same. Hang up in here to richer, but he was only six. He couldn't understand how his, like, Mom and his sisters and even his teachers, like move on. And for the next three years, he refused to do any of his schoolwork, even the stuff. He knew, how to do. He wears glasses, he stopped being like this polite kid who was a little bit troubled, and he became just sort of a problem. Hmm, his family was just like, I'll get over this grief is like that, you know, but then when Richard, Was nine. His mom was traveling home from Chicago. And she met a man on the train.

20:48 Oh, and his name was Carl. Sandburg, Carl was this traveling salesman and he was he like extreme opposite of Benjamin's back. He was a smooth talker. He was a drunkard, he smoked. And this 100% went against Mary's religious morals, but he didn't matter cause she was just oh, my god, of course button. What's that called dick-notized listening? She invited him to meet her family, like from that meeting on the train. She said, come meet my kids, you know, mmm and Carl spun this yarn that he was going to be a man who could help her raise her children. Richard didn't approve, it all. He was openly hostile to this man like but not in like a way of like you know like fighting him or anything.

21:34 But like just in the way that like when kids don't like you, they just be blank face. Yeah. They let you know they don't think so man. I got more involved with Carl and this is only a couple weeks and so like his older sister Sarah was kind of like the surrogate mom and like, Sarah, loved her younger siblings bird. Richard saw her is like, just an extension of mom, so he didn't really. So mind you after just a couple weeks of knowing this man, it's May 1950. She takes the whole family on a train ride and doesn't tell any of the children where they're going and they show up at a church fuck. As she gets, married to Carl.

22:18 I'm fucking knew it. Come on. Richard. As disgusted as if and then he was extra upset because Carl also signed the papers to adopt him. Oh, come on. And Like, he was unhappy to the point where any time someone called him, Richard Lindberg, he was like, no, that's not my name. Let me ask you. Is there like a thing where kids can say, I don't want to be adopted by you. I don't think so. When you're so little, you don't get to make that choice. He was only nine years old. Yeah. But I'm like I honestly don't like you sir. Please don't you know what you if you want. It happens all the time though. My god, I've got personal stories of friendships where people like just meet someone and move to another state. I'm just like you just upgraded your whole family for somebody. You just met what is wrong with you? But regardless this was the first time that I think, Richard very much begin to resent his mother and the fact that she blindsided him with this marriage and she didn't seem to care about how it affected, his feelings at all. Because like he was so upset, they allowed Richard and Carolyn to go back to Illinois.

23:37 Well, Mom stayed in Texas with Carl. That's where Carl lived. So so he could finish out the school year because it was May so you'll have like another month and they stayed with Sarah and they were like, well, you know, maybe once he's got some distance from the situation, you know, it'll be fine but like he just sunk into a deep depression that nobody could pull him out of like he'd been kind of failing at school before, but now he was barely attending and when he did show up, he didn't talk to anybody who was there. If a teacher spoke to him, it was like, you didn't say words to him. Oh, wow. But the school was Like, we know he's moving. So like whatever was going to pass him and like her hands, the situation. So then everybody moved to the world town of Santo Texas, which is about 60 miles away from Fort Worth Texas, and Mary kind of got the shock of her life.

24:29 When she walked into a house full of empty, whiskey bottles in every room ashtrays the whole house stank like old tobacco. Oh, so you didn't know this before your marriage. The man. Oh man, you know that and the thing is Carl made a lot more money than Benjamin ever did. But it didn't matter because he spent everything that he didn't give to marry for the housekeeping on booze and tobacco. And then when she got there, the town was talking about Carl's 25-year criminal history. Excuse me, look for jury drunk, diving, drunk, driving. And you just married him after a couple weeks, she's she's devastated because you know she made a commitment to move back home. It's okay.

25:21 Well Carl wasn't okay, Dad to Carolyn, he would like bring her a little like gifts and stuff when he came back from his trips and he definitely kind of loved Mary at least in the beginning, but he was a complete and total piece of garbage to Richard. He was spiteful because the little boy had liked him and so he would take any chance that he could to verbally, like, cut him down. Well, sir. There's a reason why I don't like you, your asshole. Well and see when Richard wouldn't respond, then Carl would launch into These insults that did what they were supposed to, which was undermined the like team sees. Tiny bit of confidence is child had and so like, Richard been angry and sad and just full of Despair for so long.

26:04 And Carl became the face of this monster for him. Carl was the reason why he was embarrassed so easily he had trouble. He was awkward. Carl was the problem and by extension. So it was Mary and Richard kind of put up with it. One day until Carl made a comment about About his father and Richard swung on his stepdad and Carl kind of just knocked him to the floor and laughed in his face. So then Richard went and grabbed a hammer from The Tackle Box and tried to attack him and Carl slapped it away, and the hammer hit Richard. And he like dropped. Oh, and Carl. Can't panic because he was just like, there's no way anyone's going to believe me that this was an accident because everyone knows that I can't stand this kid. They're going to I tried to kill him. Yeah, you got motive, sir.

26:52 I'm sorry, but and he had tried to kill him. But what he did do was give Richard A traumatic brain injury at the age of 10 years old and there goes, yep. Always isn't it. Well, first you said religious mom and then you said bring injury. So I was like goddamn. Here we go, here we go. Carl solution was to move and they would move a lot in 1951. They moved to Dallas and the movie with the family moved 10 more times over the next 12 years from Chua, crappier home every time. Hmm. Like worse than worst poverty, as they kept going. And what's worse here, is that even after the fact that like you, like conch to this kid in the brain, he couldn't stop being awful to him. And his mother didn't know about the brain injury by the way, Richard told her, that he'd been playing on the tire swing near the pond and he'd like, fall on and his, his his face. Hmm.

27:50 I would have been like, no, this dude hit me. I don't like him. Why did you not know about it? Well, if he had this like anger and happening before after the injury, he really struggled with keeping his emotions in check and he start like flying, Into these very violent rages. In 1952 his brother, Robert was hit and killed by a drunk driver in 1950, that was Richards. It was that not the senior brother, but the one in the middle and, He kind of blame himself because he was like if we never left you know Monmouth then we would have all been together and this wouldn't have happened, you know, and about 12 years old, he started drinking.

28:46 Strangely enough as much as he hated Carl and blamed Carl for all of the bad things in his life. He also mirrored some of the worst traits of a stepfather took on his bad habits and that was the drinking and he also began taking the random drugs that car left around the house as well. What the hell? What the hell? Yeah. He struggled through school. He repeated the eighth grade and then he failed ninth grade and he was just like, yeah I'm good and quit just before his 16th birthday. Like I said, this isn't surprising that he quit school because he barely spoke when he was there and he was usually drunk or high when he showed up, he got arrested the for the first time in 1955 when he passed out at a construction site. That's because he was wasted after that. He got arrested for pretty much every low-level crime, plausible that have trespassing, pickpocketing drunken disorderly possession, the cops got so used to seeing him that sometimes, if like a crime happened they would just stop by his house and be like.

29:52 So you know, anything about this? And for some reason he didn't lie, So he would tell them if he did something wrong. I mean honest criminals by his late teens, he was still living with Carl and Mary but like it was barely, he spent most of his days and nights out in the street looking to score. Get a little brief moment of relief from his depression. If he had friends, he didn't really talk about him. He was a, as he chose the tattoo, he was on the road to hell and he got the infamous tattoo. Ooh, that would get him caught eventually it says born and raised hell on his arm. Oh nice. His family was like, he's going to die. They're going to knock on the door, and we're going to have to go identify his body.

30:39 Interestingly enough, what happens? Next kind of change that trajectory a little bit. So Carl started spending more and more time away from home. He was tired of how Mary and Caroline were always like worried about Richard. And he was getting worried about Richard because the little boy that he bullied and abused was now grown ass man and he was like, if he wants to fight me, I might not be able to win. I'm sorry. It's just like yeah yeah. Consequences were you freaking actions dude? Well you know people abused children are cowards. Yes it's true. Karl used work as a means to lie about where he was going.

31:21 But really what he was doing was he would go to these other cities and he would like find a girl there and He would like, just, you know, stay at her house and whore his way across the country, while trying to sell insurance and crap. And drinking, he said, being gone for weeks, then months. Then finally, he met a lady in California, and moved in with her and her children. And as Carl started, leaving more Richard started staying home. And when the postcard came saying that Carl was never coming back, Richard kind of went back to normal, he quit drinking and doing drugs. He got a job to help his mom and sister out at the 7Up Factory, and he pretty much told them, I'll do whatever you want me to do.

32:10 It's a really crappy but it was consistent money way, more consistent than him like stealing he did begin to like work his way up to less awful jobs and Funny, because he was making less money than Carl had made. But he was giving his mother more money because he wasn't drinking away every paycheck, right, right. They finally had like a nice clean Home Free from bottles and the stink of tobacco. Well, Carolyn had a boyfriend that she was confident enough to introduce to the rest of the family. Richard was like, this is great, because he found Caroline's, need to be like, nice to him overbearing hate like he's like, I get it, you're my sister.

32:51 Stir but like stop please. No, how no kisses. He was very repressed. He spent all his free time. Working. One of the things that happened here was that he was like the man of the house but he didn't have any power in the home even though this was all of his money and energy being used to keep the household running and this would be the first time that he got violent with a woman. One night, he was trying to talk to his mom about something and she dismissed his opinion and he beat the crap out of her, two broken eyes and a broken cheek. He was 19.

33:33 My God that like I said, the first time he was violent towards women and it wouldn't be the last time he started drinking again because he used to get these horrible headaches. Obviously from the hammer he took to the head as a ten-year-old, you know, he never got checked out because no one I knew about it, Carolyn and Mary would smell the whiskey when he came in the door and just avoid him for the rest of the night. Because they were like, he's gonna hurt his sister. Next, probably the violence against Mary was seeing kind of differently by both women. Mary felt she deserved it because she married Carl and Carl had been abusive.

34:15 However, Carolyn was blindsided by this violence, and she was very confused. She always saw the best in her brother. And so with this like confusion in her way, she viewed him, she started like focusing on her relationship with her boyfriend who she invited to be at the house more often. After that, that person became her husband, they got married, and he moved into the household. Her husband tentatively accepted Richard as the sort of weirdo of the family, but this was another male income in the house, so everybody was kind of living comfortably now, mmm.

34:57 Nice, nice. Now, Richard was very like introverted. He didn't really enjoy doing pretty much anything social he specially didn't want to do things with his family, but there was one thing he liked. The Texas state fair. It's one of the biggest in the country and supposed to be one of the best like state fairs to visit and in 1961 he was there and he met a girl. Her name was surely an app Malone, she was 15 and he was 22. She assumed that he was younger because he kind of Acts a little bit younger and they were both there like with their parents. Women and sexuality were a sore subject for Richard, his whole life religion had told him that sex and sexuality. Body were wrong and so like, he viewed like his mom and his sister as like pure and perfect.

35:47 And so he pushed down like the feelings of Desire that he has for years. And so when he first meets, surely he definitely views her in the same way like she's just like beautiful virginal girl and like that day. Like they spent the day together, they held hands. And both the families thought that this was really cute, that his family, never mind their goodbyes at dusk. They learn that they both lived in Dallas and I like, oh, we'll meet up in Dallas. Back in Dallas, things moved a little quickly. Richard didn't know what a relationship was supposed to look like having only seen his stuck father or lecherous Carl, hmm.

36:30 So he was like, I like to go drinking. You want to go drinking with me? Yes, let's go. He will win. You think that wasted day drinking and they ended up on a construction site, having sex and they both seem to really enjoy this. So they Added doing it all the time. Okay. I mean moderations a good thing too. Nope. Richard was that not a lot of his repressed Sexual Energy from his entire childhood. Shirley was like, we are obviously in love and Richard was like, yeah, well seal of same, all right. Same thing works for me. So, like it was interesting. Cause remember, I told you that he used women is like, perfect and pure.

37:13 Uh-huh. So he was just like, well, you know, I bet you she wouldn't do this stuff. If we hadn't drank all day, like, that's I thought I've been corrupting her so he was just like, it's fine outside of the fact that like she gets wasted and we have sex. It's still perfect. Beautiful virginal. Surely well, maybe you sucking so wasted. Maybe well he was happy, nothing mattered, Young Love and then they were pregnant. Yay weeks later. Oh, lovely. So they were supposed to go out on a date and he was like, yo, you want to go to the bar?

37:53 And she's like, I can't, why are you not high? So she's like, hey, can we go talk and there? She told him she was pregnant, both of their family was like, oh yeah. Y'all got to get married, of course. Yeah. So and they organized it so that like, it was very fast so that she was not showing Shirley's family, definitely expected him to To do the right thing and he absolutely married her. She moved into the house with his mom and his sister. And her husband Mary began teaching her. All the wifely thing she would do to be a good Homemaker. It wasn't the worst situation imaginable. I hear a but coming first, see these thoughts popped in for him when he met surely. She was that beautiful perfect virgin now she's not she's pregnant, she's a whore.

38:44 You did it to her. Well, I gets worse one night, she declined him because she was tired and he held her down and he physically beat her and sexually assaulted her. Mmm. In fact, she refused to have sex with him from that point forward and he it pretty much was a daily occurrence that he would beat the crap out of her and rape her and Shirley was in a terrible position. She's pregnant. She's married to this monster. She doesn't have a job and she doesn't think she can go home her. Only friends were Carolyn and Mary who were also both afraid of him. Yeah. Even more. So after seeing what he done to her, Wasn't the sister's husband was still in the he was, and I wonder about that.

39:36 It's a rough situation because there's definitely a time period in the past where it was like, maybe he beats his wife. I'm not a business to business. Hmm so I wonder if it was like that for them. Yeah but everybody in the house is afraid of him though. The webinar. Yeah. So he hasn't do anything when the other man's around, of course. Not. Okay. Well Richard stop taking extra shifts. He started drinking the headaches again. He was violent to pretty much ends our to everyone in the house when the Boos stopped helping with the headaches, he turned a pills. He started poly abusing drugs trying to find a way to self-medicate. It still abusing his wife pretty much every day, eventually started going back out onto the street and like not coming home, which did make the women in the household feel safer.

40:26 But financially, they were like fuck. Yeah. You struggling. Again. Carolyn's has the most like listen, I can't pay for two wives and a mother-in-law and me. Cop started seeing Richard down at the precinct again. And when the heat from the Dallas PD was too much, he would hop on a train to a new town and start fights there. Why just don't fight because vitamin feel better. Oh my God. Surely kind of held onto the foolish notion that, you know, he's gonna get clean, and he's gonna get better for the baby and She really gave birth to Robbie Lynn's back on, July 5th. 1962. And she was definitely alone when it happened, and that's because he was in prison.

41:13 In, McKinney Texas, for putting a man in the hospital during a bar fight, when he came back to Dallas, Shirley and his daughter were gone, He tried to very much like insult and berate the information of his mom and sister but they were like, no thanks. Hmm. He was miserable not just because surely the horror thought poorly of him but because his mom and sister who, you know, are definitely still virginal Angels were mad at him. Okay, so he quits drinking. He's like, I'm going to prove to my mom and my sister. I'm a good man. He got his job back. But he started drinking again, and now, it was, like, starting fights at work and like he knew he was going to get fired and then he did something kind of stupid. So the employee checks would all get like, put together at the end of the week and this one spot. And so, Richard grabbed his check, and another man's, check course, he did.

42:06 And he forged his coworker signature and cashed it. And then he like got real paranoid. He was like, they're going to show up at my door. I'm gonna get arrested. Oh my God. and so then he was like, when the police didn't show up unlike Sunday, he like broke into a grocery store and Because he didn't realize that like they empty the money out. Yeah which is what every business does and you always do that because you never want to have like a pile of cash on saying no sir. He was only able to steal three dollars that was left in the till. He also stole some beer after realizing what a terrible Vivi was, and then he went to work and he was promptly fired on the spot because they were like, you're the only person who would do this.

42:56 And so he assumed the police already knew everything. So, he told them, he admitted to the fraud and the burglary, even though they didn't know anything about it. Thanks for the info. Yep. He just assumed they are. They knew that's why they were there at his job. And so he admitted to fraud and burglary charges and he was gonna go to jail for a total of forty seven dollars which in our money we're talking about 300 bucks. So come on. No that's not, no, he's playing prison at Huntsville. Given a 60-month sense. Yeah. 12:18 year and a half.

43:37 Sorry Batman. My part. He honestly was mostly left alone in the prison because he was emotionally unstable and they were just like, we're just gonna leave this weirdo alone, he made it through that I did right 60 months. Yeah I was wrong, 60 months in prison unharmed but covered in jail has tattoos when he came back home. A lot had changed Carolyn and her husband had moved out because they were expecting a baby. So Mary was like, sure you can come back but she was like smothering him and He hated it. Also, now without Caroline's husband, to stop Richard, he was able to like help his mom, bro information about Shirley Shirley originally struggled, but she had gotten contributions from her church, from Carolyn and Mary, and her own mother, had helped her. And, you know, she kind of bounced back. She was doing.

44:37 All right. She had a baby, she met this guy, his name. All Richard knew was that his name was mr. Price. Ice and they were kind of taking it slow until mr. Price realize that, that she was like popo like he was like, oh, this is really bad. She shouldn't be living this way. And so he kind of like fast-track their relationship and so he was going to like marry her, but she was still married. Richard took this information, okay? First one thing it did was it, solidified in his mind Shirley is definitely a whore. Like all women are whores and this is totally her fault. Not mine because all women are whores. Yeah, of course, not my fault.

45:18 I didn't do anything here. So, January 9th, 1965 a week after being released because he was actually released after only doing 12 months parole. He got wasted. He spent the last of his money on on booze and attack a random woman on the street. Oh my God, he got caught a few blocks away and was convicted of aggravated assault and put in prison again for 16 more months back to Huntsville. But what happened is that He ended up getting let out early because we supposed to be concurrent sentences. So he got released 10 months early because of a clerical error, the system was like, oh, he's just back in for a parole violation. Not a parole violation and 60, more months. So he reached out to his mom.

46:03 Again, he got a job at a Meatpacking plant. Now, he was an ex-con twice over, so he didn't have a whole lot of choices for work. He worked there for three months dry. He was a delivery driver. He got in six accidents and somehow Didn't fire him until he just didn't show up enough times. Are you serious? I mean that, that tracks. He very like he got. He made a friend with a lady who owned a bar and her name is Jenny. It was called Jimmy's Lounge. Ginny was cool. She's 29 years old, X pro wrestler, who like it be feeling. And so he started spending all his time here, but like, it wasn't just to drink. It was also like to flirt with Jenny, I mean, who am I like this busy? Body Mary was like, where's he going? So like one day, she like followed him when he left the house and saw him.

46:54 Go to James Barr and she's like, ah crap. He's drinking again. So she went inside to look and there. She saw him like sitting at the bar, like, just talking, mmm to Jenny and like, it raptured by Jenny and like, and she's like, oh, he likes a lady. So like she, when he came home, she like started trying to like get information. So is there? A new woman in your life. What's going on? And she really wanted him to like she really wanted to encourage him with this relationship because Mary only had a part-time job and Richard didn't have any money and she wanted him out. So she kind of manipulated him into thinking that he should be a father figure to Jenny's children because he very much was like upset about the whole.

47:42 I can't see my kid thing. So what's really happening was that he would watch Jenny's kids and then he would spend the night with Jimmy. She got a free babysitter and he had his lust sated and his mom wasn't bothering him, but he's nice. Okay. When win-win of course, Richard can't just take joy, this nice arrangement. He started kind of getting bothered by the fact that the seem a little transactional for him. So he started sneaking down to the bar while she was working at night. And he found out. Okay, so this mmm, this is one thing that really irks me. January of, nineteen fifty-five, surely Falls for divorce. Mary's, the one who told him.

48:28 Even though Richard is separated for years and living with another woman. Hmm, he is enraged why? Cuz You got another lady, doesn't matter who cares that night he was downstairs and he like saw a customer like give money to Jenny and like hold her hand too long and he freaked out starts beatin the crap out of this guy. He ended up being the man until Jenny and some of the customers friends like through him outside And then she ran over to the pay phone to call 911 and then he like pulled out his knife and nearly attacked her because he thought it was one of the men like she was shocked. She's like, this is the guy who I, yeah, leave around my children, exactly.

49:21 So she never spoke to him again. Because it was a stabbing. The police took him in for questioning and for the first time in this criminal record, someone was like, maybe maybe he has some mental problems. Because the way the cops up that it was that his previous crimes had all been a means for him to get drugs or alcohol. But this was kind of the first crime of passion for him, and the cops kind of took pity on him. When they realized that he'd attacked, the man who'd been flirting with his girlfriend. And I like this and he was just defending his honor and the fight got a little bit out of hand. I'm pretty sure you pulled a knife out and like it ain't get out of here. It just started out of hand. Well, yeah, because the other guy wasn't aware that it was gonna be a fight. Exactly.

50:03 He's just paying for his alcohol. The local police actually running on a push for jail time but because of his previous arrests they just couldn't ignore it. Mary. Mary realized if he went back to court he was going to serve for a really long time. So she got like a warrior for him and the lawyer argued everything down to a misdemeanor of creating a public disturbance. He took a plea deal and agreed to pay $10, which he couldn't pay because he was broke. So they put him in jail for three days, okay? He did his time, he went back to Mary's house but He was pretty convinced that Mary didn't want him there, and he knew he couldn't go to Jimmy's house because he was like, she might be my ass, and she's big enough to do. I'm pretty sure she would.

50:48 Hmm, he started working like, odd jobs, to make money and move out. You still drinking Polly abusing any drugs. Could get his hand on after about two months. He see it, but a little bit of money and he bought a car from a guy. He met at a bar. His plan was to drive somewhere and start a new life because in his mind Dallas was just a whole lot of bad memories. The car was a crappy investment. So he was like, I'm going to break into a shop and still 70 cartons of cigarettes out of back and he starts selling my the back of his car. He realized that everybody who bought those cigarettes from him was a witness so he abandons the car and grabs the cash a warrant out for his arrest the next day because he had been in the car and it still had all of the papers in it and so they went and they talked to the owner and the older was like oh yeah I still do this guy Richard.

51:37 And so he hadn't abandoned house, he showed up at his mom's house. And she was like, you need to get the hell out of here. My neighbors already say they're looking for you. When she's like if you get caught, you're going to jail for a long time. This would be his 42nd arrest. Oh, my God, in Dallas. So Caroline shows up in her husband's car drives into a bus station, and buys them, a ticket to Chicago to avoid, going to jail. I mean, hey, he's family. So he goes to Chicago. His older sister, Martha picks him up. Martha was a lot older than him, so they barely had any of a relationship because she was already moved out of the house. By the time, he was like, born.

52:19 I'm she had a husband and his name was Jean Thornton and Jean didn't really like Richard, but he was like, I'm a grin and bear this, this is my like wife's younger brother, he's a bum, but whatever. So Jean very much was like, yeah, you know what, you should move back to Monmouth. Didn't you love Mom meth? And like within days they would have mom lost her. Mom is freaking like, yeah, I know you just came here but guess what? There's a better. Please, listen, his last surviving, brother Howard, the oldest picks him up and gives him a job and while richer was still drinking, a lot of his paycheck, he did better there. Howard tried to, like, What is baby brother? But the two had very different Lifestyles like how it was just like a straight-laced kind of dude, and Richard was a druggie. So when Richard moved out to a hotel on March 25th that year, he was pretty happy about it.

53:19 He ended up getting into a bar fight shortly after moving into the hotel, spent a couple days in jail. His job didn't fire him, but they were like if you miss one more day we're going to kick you out like before when he had gotten reprimanded at work, he started becoming abusive to his co-workers. And while he was a really good worker, he really brought the morale down. Part of his sour mood is that because he hadn't had sex since January. Well, that's your own fault, sir. And so he was kind of jonesing for a fix and then his mother is a genius, send him a letter saying that the divorce had been granted because he'd missed all the court dates. So so wait, okay, so she filed for divorce and he got into the fight and January.

54:04 Yeah, three months later after he know what was going on the court system, he was avoiding the court system, so he definitely wasn't going to show up to court always in. So he went right back on his bullshit, drinking drugs and now he picked up a new crime that he really liked rape. His first cry. His first victim was Virgil Harris. She's in her 60s. She lived in one of the homes that Richard liked to hang out him when they were being built. When he was a teenager, I can you get high and, like, Squat and those houses. So, he's familiar with the area and he noticed, she lived alone. He very much. Watched waited, and plan this attack against her April 3rd. He breaks into her house, ties her up blindfolds, her assaults her, Rob's her, and then says, thank you and good night on the way out.

54:56 But Richards, rage still wasn't stated though, because she was like older, he kind of held her in this Dame esteem as his mother and therefore he could not you her, like he viewed the young Horrors that he wanted to punish. Oh, so you're gonna punish her now well. So week later, he's out drinking and a female bartender makes a joke about him and he gets real upset. And so near this bar was Was like a little farm type area and he had been one of the day laborers who had helped build up part of this farm. Specifically, a pig pen has something that he had done. So he kind of want, you know, storms out and they standing near the pig pen and the bartender. Mary, Kay Pierce comes out and apologizes to him and he punches her in the stomach with such force that he ruptured her liver.

55:52 He dragged her deeper into the pig pad and he was going to rape her but she fought back and she managed to like, unsettle the pigs to the point where they were making noises and he got kind of spooked. And he left her to die in the pig pen, which happened shortly after look here, these these these these women bartenders don't mess with them. The fuck you? Well, I mean she was just like, yeah, hey, you know, I'm sorry. And yeah, she came out to apologize. You're a nice guy and like but like he you know, that rage, that issue that he had with a rage. It was because at that moment she was a stand-in for who he was really mad at.

56:34 He was still mad at surely. Okay, well that's still your fault and this is him doing what he wanted to do to Shirley to somebody else. So that was his circuit for his anger. The police were immediately suspicious of him. They were like, well, he knows that area, he helped build that place. He was at the bar. His boss was like, hey, if you come in, you know, I can give you more work and the cops picked him up this time. Richard lied. He told them. Yeah, I've been there. He's like, yeah, I worked on this site, but I don't know about a murder. The police knew that the timeline he given them for, where he was. That night was weird, but all they have is circumstantial evidence. They decided they were going to stop by. They were like, you know, don't go anywhere. So when they decide to stop by his hotel on April 18th, he is not there, of course but he don't. Listen, he taking all his clothes and left. He told the hotel clerk, he was getting gone to the to wash his clothes and his hotel room.

57:31 He had left all the stuff that he had stolen from Virgil's House, along with other burglaries, but the police found no evidence of Mary's murder there. They looked for him but he had jumped on a freight train and went back to Chicago, you should have been marked his doorstep and he was like there were drug dealers and they Want me to sell the drugs. He's like, so I had to leave. I don't want to sell drugs, Martha. And like if Martha had been somebody who knew anything about the real world and wasn't as straitlaced as she was. She would have known that. That made no sense, not at all. So, I'm gonna Force you in this selling drugs.

58:11 Well actually know that that's a thing, but it worked out because Jean was working nights, so the to didn't have to see each other and so Gene was less angry. Problem was, Richard had discovered the things that made him stop being so, angry, killing, somebody and raping. Somebody, my God, the rape thing worked for him because he struggled with seeing women as anything other than pure virgins and if you consented to sex with him, it messed up his fantasy. If he took it from them, it was his choice, not theirs. And he found a certain peace with mixing violence and sex and the power that he got over women. Mmmmm.

58:52 So Jean be in the smart one. Here was like, yeah, well, you know, you're kind of a piece of crap. I doubt that you could handle joining the Navy and so Richard was like, I couldn't join the Navy. Are you talking about? I like jeans, very manipulative. And if Richard took the bait, signed up strangely, though in the beginning, being the Navy was really good for him and he stay out of trouble. It was almost like having a set place to be at every time really worked for him. And then one day, he missed a shift. It was May 3rd where there were still in 1966? Oh my goodness, he missed his shift and his commanding officer, some people look for him.

59:32 They found him curled up in a ball in like pain and he had like a like hot to the touch fever and they were like, there's no doctor on board but like this is obviously some kind of infection. So they Helicoptered him to the it's Keweenaw, peninsula in Michigan to st. Joseph's hospital because his appendix was very big and it did not burst a goodness because that's a real long time every time but he did have an emergency appendectomy and he woke up free from Pain and very high on drugs. Uh-oh. May 20th a week after being released from the hospital. They put them back on the ship.

1:00:14 He started drinking again. His Superior officers were like he's really not fit to be a seaman originally they let it all slide but they were like, listen. If you can keep it together, you can drink and he was, he was sloppy. Hmm, I know you're laughing because of the word season because you are a child Ryan. That's what you call this C soldiers. Anyway, haha, that's even anyway. I'm sorry. Well, he managed to get together until about June 14. When he confronted an officer while he was drunk and they were like, nah, you're done.

1:00:54 They set him back to Shore and he was fired without pay for his time on the boat. Oh yeah, that sucks. He went back to Chicago but he's like I can't really face Gene and Martha so he finds like a cheap rooming house. To live in East Chicago on 99th Street and South Ewing Avenue. He really only had one friend in the world in his mind and her name was Judy. Okay. So it's like aneema. She was a nursing aide who he'd met when he was recovering in the hospital and she really was like just a friend to him. There was no it was confusing to him because he only viewed women as Saints or slots. So here's this person in the middle who's just treating him like a regular person and just being regular.

1:01:36 Nice to him. So he called her and she was just like, listen, come to Michigan. You know, I'll, we can hang out and he took a training matter and Haughton, she took him to the Douglas house which was a local hostile, they had lunch and they did he can talk about getting fired from the Navy and she and talk about the messy divorce that she was a part of and they kind of spent the afternoon laughing and when it was time for her to leave she gave him an envelope with $80. Which is about six hundred and seventy dollars today. So it's not a little bit of money like I said he was really confused because she didn't want to have sex with him. Therefore she wasn't a whore but she wasn't fulfilling the role of being like the virgin mother either. The next day, he went back to Chicago with more money than he pretty much ever seen.

1:02:27 Any time. He went back to G and Martha and they very much weren't happy. And like Gene was just like, you got to work like you can't be here and not work, Buddy. So Jean was like, you know what, we gon go to the union hall for Navy men as and I'm you and he's like, you going to keep looking to see if you can get on another boat problem was nobody wanted to hire him because they knew he was a drunkard who like to start fights. He managed to somehow get invited to work on the SS flying spray which was a cargo ship that was headed to South Vietnam.

1:03:07 At Nam, but when he arrived there, someone else with more seniority was given his job. And so he was really upset about that because he had taken a cab and spent a lot of money, it was a 30 minute ride to get to the port. Okay. And so he wasted a lot of that money that Judy gave him to go there, and he spent pretty much all weekend complaining, and drinking and yelling. And then on Monday morning, Martha and Gene drove him into the city with his suitcase and was like, you got to go Oh, somewhere, but she can't be here. Removing, sorry. I don't come back to our house and pretty much Martha was just like, you are too old to keep relying on me. And like, trying to help you is ruining my marriage. The next day he went back to n.

1:03:51 Mu hiring Hall. He got an assignment for the SS Sinclair on great, Great Lakes, which was an oil tanker when he arrives the Sinclair. Same thing happened. He'd even have enough money to rent a room here so he slept on a construction site. Wednesday July 13th, he tries again at the hiring Hall. He's really angry. He's getting the runaround Martha and Gene had come to like give him a ride and they talked with him at about 9:00 a.m. they were parked on East 100 Street which was near the loo elementary elementary school and across from a nursing townhouses. After about an hour and a half of waiting for work, he got tired and left.

1:04:32 He took his last $25 and walked to the shipyard and which was another rooming house that had a Tavern. There, he spent the rest of the day drinking, and two different taverns, he met a lady, who was her name is Ella, Mae Hooper, she's 53 and convince her to come back with him to his hotel room where he raped her at knifepoint. And stole her 22 caliber. Rome pistol. Oh, which had a gun. She'd have a gun. Okay. Okay. He brought a gun to a Shear. Only got one life like she brought a gun to what she thought was a casual sexual encounter. Yes, but unfortunately and it was not Then he took himself out to dinner at case, pilothouse returned to the shipyard Tavern, at about 10:20, p.m. went upstairs, and came back down. Dressed in all black, carrying a switchblade and L is handgun. He hadn't made that much money.

1:05:34 From stealing from Ella. But his plan was he had seen the nurses coming and going this up to this week while he was at the union hall and his plan was that he was going to show up there and he was going to rob one of the houses specifically the house on 23:19 East 100 Street at about 11:00 p.m. July 30th 1966. He walked to the door and he banged on it four times a Woman by the name. I'm of corazon, I'm Mauro, open the door. And he pretty much by the time, she opened the door, he had his gun out, and he was just like, hey, where are your companions?

1:06:15 He then woke up another. Five residents of the house, and he was just like, I'm not going to hurt you. I see enough money to get to New Orleans. She will the women need a Josh mall and Patricia matusik? Offered to go get their purses right away and he was like you can do it one by one. The other people who were there were Pamela welcoming and Melita gargola And Valentina pacion. They had been yanked out of bed and like physically like picked up by him, so they were freaked out. Yeah, the other two women were like, we'll go get our purses because he hadn't touched them, but like the ones who had been like physical. Like, one of the girls have been physically yanked out of her, like, bunk bed.

1:06:56 He was like, listen, I'll let you go one of the roommates Gloria Davy bust through the door drunk. She thinks that she's gonna get in trouble from her roommates. And she walks into Robert are robbery and he grabs her. Throws her on a ground ties. All of them up and he's like, listen, this is not, I'm not going to do anything. Like I just don't want you to run and call the cops as soon as I leave lies. Well, what happened here was that something kinda took over him? He standing over this group of beautiful women. These are women who have never given him the time of day and he's just like, I have complete power over them.

1:07:37 So he untied Pamela enough that she could like walk and he was just like, listen, I just want to talk to you alone and he pulled her into like another room. So then Suzanne Farris and Marianne Jordan arrived home and they kind of like walked upstairs and then they walked by And they see Richard standing over there roommate with a knife and the both of them try and run away. He closes that door and chases the other two of those women down And no point yet, had he hit anybody or hurt anybody? But Marianne was trying to fight and he was like, oh cool. Now I can hurt you. What? That was? That was it.

1:08:17 He stabbed her death and while he was still holding Suzanne down and then he chokes Suzanne left them in a room. Went back to the bedroom where he left, Pamela tied up and she was terrified and she didn't fight back at all. And he Just was kind of disgusted by the fact that she didn't fight back and he just very quickly stopped her. Well, yeah, you got all the power. I can't do anything against you right now. I've got me tied up. What do you he was? He was getting off on this role of them fighting. I'm sorry, sir, but you're not getting what you want. Well, this went on for the rest of the night, he would kill one. He would go to the bathroom. Clean everything up.

1:09:00 Then he would go back into the bedroom where he had them all. Tied up, grab another one. And he knew that there were eight women who lived there, but what he wasn't aware of was that he had nine women in the room. Because horrid coraz��n core. I didn't live there, she was just visiting, that's right. And so while he was gone at one point Cora begins slowly sliding under the bed. And Hiding. Hmm. And some of the other girls tried to do that too. But they didn't quite get all the way under the bed and he ended up pulling cooking them. Yeah finally though he was just like my last one and he was he felt like he was alone in the house.

1:09:43 So he picked up Gloria and he was going to his people. He raped her before he killed her and this is like from korres testimony which was that she watched it happen and she she saw Gloria go to another place. She pretty much at that point had completely disassociated from the night. And Cora was afraid that if she even breathed, he would know where she was under the beds and dragged her out to Richard was exhausted at this point, it had been hours of it's not exactly easy to stab. Someone to death, it is physically demanding, true true. He dragged her out of the room by her feet into the hallway. She was still alive at this point and then he was like ah here's a random piece of a sheet. And he grabbed, it wrapped around her neck and he choked her so hard that it like cut into her neck. For Richard, this was the best night of his life and he's like, whoo.

1:10:44 I could I'd all this control over women. He washed himself up kind of ants that they're there. A bodies. Hey bedrooms. I got this or you know eight beds. Yeah, he didn't remember that Cora had been the one to even let him it. Oh goodness. Okay, she waited and climbed out of a window in the room after he dragged her out of the house. She was sitting on like a ledge and Near like the first floor, roof sobbing. And one of the girls across the street woke up and saw her that girl was Judy diketon. And Judy was just like a lot of those girls over there are pretty dramatic, but Cora is not dramatic and she's like, she's not sitting on her roof.

1:11:27 Crying over a breakup. So Judy wrapped herself and like her robe and like ran across the street and as she got closer she could hear Cora just saying over and over. She's like they're all dead. Oh my God. Are all dead Judy made it to the first flight of steps and she saw Gloria on the couch, naked and choke so hard. That her head looked partially, severed, and she ran back across the street. And she talked to her house mother and mrs. Bison. That whole house of women walked with mrs. Mason because mrs. Bison was, like, I need to see this for myself. Like she went inside the house alone and then came right back outside threw up on the front lawn. And called the hospital where they all worked and was just like all of my girls have been killed. And the receptionist was like, excuse me. And she said, you seemed to send somebody while mrs. Bison is throwing up on the lawn, the girls like wave down. The police Corazon is Falling apart on the front lawn. Actually she had jumped down to try and stop mrs. Bison from going in.

1:12:38 She's like, no, no, no, it's really bad in there and buy some is like nah I got this. No, you don't want traumatize. Obviously, you did not get it. First officer who arrived, his name is Daniel Kelly. And he like, doesn't know what to do here. Everybody is like, screaming and crying. He saw the first murder. and he was like, okay, I gotta I gotta walk around the rest of the house and after he confirmed that nobody else was there like the killer was gone. He radioed for assistance over the radio? All the cops heard.

1:13:21 They're all dead. Oh God, give me the sergeant and then he said I dated her sister. I've never seen anything like this. Wow. So he knew one of the victims. A local reporter overheard. This address on a radio and rushed over, of course, Daniel Kelly is like one almost shot him because he's like, why are you rushing at me, bro? And Joe Cummings is the reporter and he walks up the steps, like he can tell just looking at the police officer like some bad happened here and like Dale's, just like you really don't want to go in there and he's like, no, no, it's just a murder. I've seen a lot of murders and Like he walked on the first floor and he was like, oh yeah, this is bad. You know, but like this cat like, okay, something's can't get any worse.

1:14:09 Well, then he walked around the rest of the house and then he came out and also vomited on the front lawn. Oh, he got worse in this Earth. Yeah, fuck out of here. In fact, when the other officers came up, they saw the reporter like freaking like, you know, that and they were like, I look at this guy until they saw what happened? Everybody's havin, a few fast. Everybody was like this game be that bad. What are you talking about? Out. And then they saw it happen. A doctor actually came from the hospital where they all worked, and gave Cora a Saturday of. Because she was having a full-blown breakdown. Like I said, she was just there, visiting Frank, flannagan the commander of Chicago's homicide unit came and was just like, Joe, you can't say anything.

1:14:54 He's like, I don't want anybody to know about how they were killed or the rapes. He's like this is going to bring out a lot of weirdos in Chicago. He's like an people are going to try and take credit. It's going to mess up our investigation. Joe crede core was taken to the hospital for observation and like it was really sucky because the cops didn't want to like re-traumatize her but they also need to know like bare minimum what the guy looked like. Yeah. So she did give like a description barely before she was fully sedated. And the cops took that and went looking for him, he had bitten by a gas station and had dropped off like his stuff randomly and the gas station attendant was like oh yeah I remember him. He was you know hate like a weird stuff. Thunder. All the attendant was like, oh, he was complaining about being at the hiring Hall and how they kept giving him the runaround. Oh, you don't say so, the cops were like, oh perfect if he's in the Navy.

1:15:47 They we got everything. We have this guy. Yes. So the Navy was just like a first like the main that guy didn't know who he was, but they were just like, oh no, we got this fingerprints. Photograph, everything matches. Exactly what Cora said, they Him within the first two hours of finding out about the internet. Nice, very nice. Their next deal was that we have to find him before he kills anybody else because we've never seen anything like this. We've not had a crime where people murdered an entire house of people before, we don't know what the next step is here. Richard headed back to the end, took a shower and went to bed after murdering all those people. He went drinking with his buddies that morning unaware that Chicago was looking for him. He's just having a great old time. Yeah.

1:16:31 He met some of his old classmates. He was like, Hey, Wanna Party at some point during the day, they did hear that there had been a Survivor to this attack in East Chicago. Richard got back to the n and he had a call from Gene, and Gene was just like, hey, there's a job down for you. The union, I love Jean, I love you. Richard was like, what? Good luck. I can get out of Chicago while we're looking for me, but then, as he sat down, like, thing about this information, he was just like, wait a second. The union doesn't call you. You have to go down there and get the job. So Jamie was like, he's like I don't think my brother-in-law's been down there doing me any favors, so he called the union, all himself and the staff, who was normally pretty rude to him were like, oh yeah, we do.

1:17:21 I have a job for you. Mr. Speck. Come on down, I love it. I love it so much. The problem was they told him that there was a job on the the Sinclair Great Lakes and it was like I guess the guy forgot that was the same job they'd offered him three days ago. Hmm. Because he was like, okay so he definitely remembered that one because he spent all his money on a cab. So he knew they were in on it and he knew he needed to leave that damn it. So he ended up running away. He went to the other side of town. He hired a prostitute who saw his gun and told the hotel workers. He had a gun and the hotel called the cops. And I looked at his IDs and his paperwork, but since things went so slow back then every Precinct didn't have his picture yet, right? Right.

1:18:07 And so the cops let him go Chicago. P.d., however, were chasing down his path that he had been through. They did find the shipyard in and confirmed his i.d. They found his schoolmates. They talk to them, Richard then met up with a couple, like he like, ended up like hanging out with a bunch of hobos. And he was like, hey are you guys leaving like what's a good train? Hop on again in town. The hobos were like this guy's weird is terrible, right? We'll listen. I'm not gonna make an assessment on hobos. Are not bad people. Yeah, me either. No, no, definitely not, but you just like random as people enter like you're fucking weird.

1:18:48 Don't know if I could you do this. Well, so he went to a liquor store on his way, back to the little hostile. He was staying at, and that is what he saw his Pace on every single newspaper. Mmm, one of the hobos called the cops and the cops were like, who is this drunk man? Talking to me, Richard Chuck, this little bottle of wine smash the bottle on the cot that he was sleeping on, and then cut his wrist, all the way up to his elbow and waited for death. The cops didn't company ambulance did and in the ER, as they were saving his life. One of the doctors was like, this is the guy they're looking for. You need to call the police. They recognize the Born To Raise Hell Tattoo that Cora had mentioned seeing things went quickly.

1:19:34 At this point, they had 133 pages of testimony from core about that night clothing, with blood on it fingerprints. Somehow Richard Speck got the best public defender who ever existed in the history of Public Defenders. This is terrible. This guy got so much of the evidence excluded. He was like little that pistol, you got illegal, search and seizure because the prostitute told you about it, and you didn't have a right to go into his hotel room. Also, she's a prostitute and reliable witness that Bloody t-shirt, that could have been a planted. Every witness you had every witness they had. After the crime happened, was a drunkard. And therefore he argued that they were unreliable, their testimony was unreliable prostitutes. Are not unreliable Witnesses.

1:20:24 Listen, he Even tried to push to get eight different trials and he said, there's no way I can get he can get a fair trial in Chicago because you put his face on every newspaper. So now everybody who lives in here is part of the jury pool and they're going to be tainted, everyone's real fucking Rex thing. Well, here's the thing judge passion did agree to most of the stuff except the motion to separate the trials. Okay, cool. Now he was like he killed them all in the same night. It's all the same trial because what, what? His Lawyer Jerry was going to do was kind of create like a mistrial situation. He tried to find an expert like Jerry. So I get e, his name was Gerald, Getty call him Jerry because that's much just made me get her. Yeah.

1:21:15 But Gerald get he tried to find an expert. Who would say that? Richard was clinically insane. He was having trouble. He did get a brain scan and saw his brain injury was pretty severe and affected the part of his brain related to emotional control and it had continued to not form properly after the injury. Jury. Right? But that wasn't enough for what he was trying to do. There was a psychiatrist. He spent a lot of time with him and his name was dr. Zipporah in and the porn diagnosed him with anxiety depression OCD. The problem is, those are all things that come from you coming down off of drugs, all things that happen to people those supporting was the first one is zero in, on Richards, Madonna whore complex though and how this dominated the way he interacted with women and was a big major thing.

1:22:06 It was, it took six weeks. Even outside of Chicago, they filtered through 600 jurors to find a jury that made both sides. Happy interestingly enough, even those the porins supported Richard the lawyer discovered that support him was going to write a book about him. A book that I actually read for this podcast and therefore the both the defense and the prosecution were like we don't trust this Doctor. They're like what? If he does something to make the trial go, whatever way he wants for his book, right? So none of them wanted him to testify and so he did trial started, April, 3rd, 1967, drove, Getty ripped. The prosecution to shreds from the jump, he argued that the fingerprints were compromised because officer Kelly had allowed Joe Cummings to just Waltz through the house, which is true.

1:23:00 He should have been allowed to walk through an active crime scene. Porter, come on. The prosecution's case was falling apart and then our girl Cora showed up. I'm going to say once you look like a boss and I'm going to give you this moment to show you a picture of her because she looked like a g. Like she showed up with a whole Entourage, she had quietly like arrived in the city. And everybody who was going to testify are part of that trial was all sequestered at this Ramada, Inn They're all one spot. Yep. Let me see if I can find some good pictures of her. So, I love this one picture. She showed up with Lisa glasses on and I was like, she looks like she's ready to fuck shit up.

1:23:47 And love to see it. You little fishies their bodyguards like walking into the trial. Yeah. And she's a tiny little Filipino lady. She does. She looks like she is ready to tell some serious business who is. She is the mob boss and they are her bodyguards. I love it. Okay. And the thing was she was poised confident and control the entire time. She was talking, she got on the stand and explained everything in detail the newspaper articles about. By this were, like, the room was silent the entire time and all you could hear were the cry, like, the parents of the victims crying. Because this was the first time that they had heard everything in this kind of detail, like they might have known like, oh, your daughter was stabbed, or your daughter was choked, but like Korra gave some very intense testimony and then the best part I said she's a G8 like what? A cool lady.

1:24:45 She ended her testimony and they were Like well, do you see the man who did this in this room? She left the witness box walked over to his table, pointed him in the face. And said, this is the man who murdered my friends. Mic drop, no fear love it on April, 15th. After 49 minutes of deliberation, the jury came back with a guilty verdict for all eat murders. He was sentenced to death. But his lawyer, did some lawyer ring and managed to get a stay of execution while the Supreme Court of Illinois. Look at the case, On November 22nd 1968, the Supreme Court, the lower court ratified that sentence 1971. However, he was able to find evidence that the prosecution had excluded over 200 jurors, because they were anti-capital punishment.

1:25:41 And so, they looked at his trial again, and he was given a new sentence on November 21st, 1972. He was resentenced to 400 years in prison. So death right life with Richard would request parole hearings every time he was eligible. 1976, 77-81, 84 87, 1990, pretty much until the parole board realized that he was bored and that's the only reason why he was doing it. We do get a hobby, he's gonna be in prison for a long time and he had no options and prison. He pretty much ignored the rules. There's a horrible story. They call him the Birdman, okay, because there, Bird that like flew into his cell and like had a broken wing and he kind of kept it as a patent nurse it back to health. And so at some point the warden came down and was like, you can't have a pet in prison, bro, you're in prison. And so he took the bird and he threw it into a fan, o killing it and spreading blood all over his cell. He was like, well, if nobody can have a pet, like, if I could have a pet, nobody can have it.

1:26:43 He's like, fuck this bird, wow. Yeah, again very unhinged. And everybody knew it. And that was very dramatic and Uncle for sure. I was going to ask you if this was. I don't forget who the Birdman of Alcatraz is. No, that's where they got there were like oh you're just like the bird man. Yeah, that's where they got the name from like people knew about that. But no, no, the warden was like, you can't have birds and he was like, well, let me kill this bird in front of you. He got drugs. He got moonshine. Smuggled in when the guards challenged him and were like stop. He was just like what you gonna do another hundred years I mean actually sorry add another thousand years is the direct quote. Oh my God, he only ever did one interview in prison, it was for the Chicago Tribune and he admitted that he did Kill the woman, he felt nothing about it and he barely remember the night.

1:27:41 He died the day before his 50th birthday 1991. A lifetime of drug abuse had destroyed his heart, and he just had a massive heart attack scientist took his brain and they were like, oh, we go. And look at them. They discovered that they were major abnormalities in his hippocampus, which controls your memory, and the amygdala, which controls your strong emotions, the hippocampus and amygdala were fused together, which is not what's supposed to happen. So, it turns out that like, He probably didn't remember a lot. Hmm interesting. If the part of his brain that is responsible for memory is completely malformed. Yeah. They took a bunch of tissue slides and they mailed them to Boston and someone stole them and they have no idea where they are.

1:28:27 Oh, they assumed it was for someone's probable, personal and creepy collection was once a someone is creepy Museum. The rest of his body was not claimed by his family. They finally managed to contact Coral. You know Carolyn and Carolyn was like fine we don't want to I don't want to bury him because he'll have like some creepy Monument to his name. So she was like let's just cremate him. Throw his ashes, in the wind will be fine. He kind of figured out the spotlight. People forgot about what happened and then in 1986 a video gets set to Chicago newspaper. And it Richard Speck is there one. He has boobs, which they think he got from getting hormones smuggled in.

1:29:17 He is performing sex acts on other prisoners. Snorting cocaine having sex on camera bragging you know, as I said in the beginning, if they knew, how much fun I was having, they turn me loose, Illinois. Lawmakers, are embarrassed angry. This was released right after a scandal. That happened in Illinois with guards sexually, assaulting women prisoners and so they're just looking at like, the people of Illinois are like, what are you all doing? Like, not your job. And the one person that they had wanted to kill here. He is immortalized mocking. Them for letting him live.

1:30:00 Okay, did he have boobs when he died? He might have. Yeah. Okay, one, quote lives kind of, on from that Soul interview that he did. When he first went to prison, they asked why he did it, you know? And he very nonchalantly said, it just wasn't there night. Fucking strangers, people's fucking God, but I do want to end on something. Nice, talking about our lovely Survivor Corazon Amora Atienza, she moved on with her life. Originally, she moved back to the Philippines for a little bit. She got married in 1969.

1:30:40 She moved back to the US settled in Washington DC where she worked at Georgetown University Hospital as a critical care nurse and then the Veterans Medical Her until she retired at 68 years old, she became lifelong friends with the police and the bodyguards, and the prosecutor prosecutors who watched over her leading up to the trial and afterward. People very much tried to protect her from the obsessiveness of the fandoms and the creepiness there. Unfortunately, it wasn't the best for all the other families. Some of the families of the other victims were harassed, not in the States, but in the Philippines, in Manila. No, and I was really upset. To a lot of people Corazon is 78 years old. She spends her days.

1:31:26 These right now, take care of her grandchildren. She has a daughter named Abigail who is a nurse as well. And her son, is an accountant, he's my Ace, her last interview response was in 2016. The 50-year anniversary of the crime? She didn't do any direct. She doesn't do any direct talking to the Press. The former assistant attorney William Martin spoke to the Press on her behalf and said, she's happy, the case still changed everybody at touched. They still exchange emails. He says that Korra still have nightmares about her attack and she does Harbor some survivor's guilt still but she looks at it as if someone somewhere maybe God was looking out for her that night. And yeah, love to see it.

1:32:16 Okay, that's a good. I like the ending. That's nice. Yeah, decided we would add it on, you know, because like I said, I we talk a lot about a lot of people who die and not that often, about people who survived like pretty horrible things. So I did run a whole series. I'm going to add more to it of of women who survived, I do remember watching that video. Now, we're those glasses on looking like a genius, The first letter name I was like oh I remember that was it means that the prosecutors. They coached her very well because you can't show any weakness. You can't cry on the stand. They use that against you. Right? And Jimmy were like cold as ice Cora. She was almost even even in the interview that I saw the Chicago Tribune with Martin with a William Martin. He talked about that moment where she got off the witness box and got in his face and I was like he was like, that was that was Brave.

1:33:07 He was like, that was awesome. Something happened in, Ted Bundy's case. Ted Bundy was like, are you sure? It's me. And she was like, I'm absolutely sure it was you. Yeah, he's like, how do you know it was me. Who attempted to murder you. I saw your noxious, fucking fascia dipshit. But anyway, what do you have for us? I'm sorry. This one went a little long today. But no, it was a great story. I love it. I'm okay with it being. Well, well today let me give you a little story time, first? Okay, it's a little personal story time. Actually, is something that happened to me. Now, I like to think of myself as like sort of sensitive, okay? Like a sensitive not you know what I mean? Like someone who's, this is actually the have you had experiences.

1:34:10 I've had why have we never discussed this? I've had experiences, I've had a couple of experiences, it was some point. We got to do a, we're gonna record this conversation and make it like a bonus for the patreon. Yeah, and like it kind of runs in the family too. Okay. Yeah. Like with my mom, she can meet her. We had this thing. Like we have prophetic Rings. Oh, I don't like that. Yeah, it's kind of shitty, my sister. And I have had. We've had shared dreams multiple time, huh. Nice. Yeah, it's my family that runs down the indigenous side the indigenous women. I think that's yeah this is for us like she can tell when someone's gonna lie she has dreams of people being pregnant and like someone who's trying to hide it and she's like as well. I just wanted to say yes I want your mom to never have a dream about me.

1:35:01 I need her to keep that energy away from me, but that evil on me? Ricky Bobby. It didn't happen. If she calls you one night and says No, I dream about your podcast co-host. Just be like Schneider and Mom know you did. Don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. Keep that evil to yourself. Um, well like that. But I've had at least a couple. The last one I had was with a friend of mine. I use quotations around friend and he's somebody you don't like, no. It's someone that How do you say this Friends with Benefits?

1:35:43 Oh okay. So this was like years ago. We work together so, well, that's a terrible Choice. Yeah yeah. Whatever you work with is such an awful Choice sir. Anyway so one night I had this dream about her with my other friend that I worked with oh no and and she's like the ancestors, let you know. Yeah. And then and then getting done dirty but still dang. It's funny because I wake up the next morning. I'm like, damn, that was a shitty as dreamily. I feel real bad.

1:36:25 I felt bad like really inside, like just terrible. We're rest of the day and she's like, I hadn't seen a message me like later. And I said, I have something to tell you, I'm like, you slept with this such and such and she's like, how do you know I'm like, because I had a fucking dream about it. I, I know he's things. And then she's like, I don't believe you'd only whatever. Anyway, you gotta believe me, girl, I know I know. No, I renew. But um, I-i've had I'd see I'd say like a couple experiences when I was a child as well. The one I'm going to talk about is I'm going to say, it's kind of like a sleep paralysis type of thing.

1:37:06 So um, you know, we were in our attic. Me and my brother shared room. Oh you're adequate. Your room has an attic. Yeah, but is awesome attic. Okay, it was very spacious. It's a big help, that's good because I think Those little tiny little swoosh the little closer. No, yeah. That's what I have my house now. But no, you feel like a whole bunk bed. Yeah. Room enough for all my space for activities. Yeah. Someone's face reactivities. Oh my god. Um, In Overlook my parents room. So there's a little door to overlook their room.

1:37:46 One night laying in the top bunk and for some reason like I wake up and I roll like the covers over my head. The light turns on. There's like you don't hear anybody walking. You, like just turns on Yvonne situations. I was like a light at the bottom of the steps like you flip it on. Yeah, upstairs. Yeah, I got exactly that's how it is in my parents house, but no, we walked upstairs. There's nobody walking at all. So, it was, like, laying there, like, looking up in my, you know, my eyes were open. I was not moving. I was like, I don't want to move because I know there's something like they just it, I just felt like there was something around me and Arrested.

1:38:30 It was there's nobody walking around right and I just happen to realize that I have 50 million things. Oh my God, my phone, and I'm deleting them all. And all of a sudden they're just like this black figure. No, I think that just crosses like it just waves across my face. I don't want to need the blanket and I can see it and Zane, nothing like turns off. And that's it. Are we talking about Shadow People today? Oh my God.

1:39:10 Yeah, we're talking about Shadows people today. I have positives and negative experiences with us. Mmm. Yeah this is um, I don't know. I think well, the interesting thing is that I've heard people like the lady who I watch on Dead Files, she talks about Shadow People in a different way. She talks about them being like Ancient and inhuman. Yeah, that hasn't been my experience. They're the ones I've experienced seem like people there, there I can. So that's okay. Please explain more because I'd be like, what is she talking about? Yeah. Now shaped like a people and they just kind of some some of them are some of them are not, so shadow people can be associated with of course sleep paralysis.

1:40:00 Before we get into too deep into sleep paralysis. Get a little history of these shadow things. So the earliest depiction of a shadow being would have to be from a short story from 1887 titled Lahore or The Outsider it was written by a French author. Guided guy did 1 plus r naught okay so that's French. Yes, I did not. Take for instance, I made a video and I called the man, Gary plauche. His name is definitely push a push but I don't know why my brain just didn't he's from Louisiana France. Whatever occasion.

1:40:57 Yeah. Oh well we make these mistakes whatevs. Yeah. So in the story he tells Tells the tale of an aristocrat. Who's driven to Madness, the character complains of being afraid to sleep, where he has dreams, there's a shadowy presence. See anyone his chest and it's using its it has its the shadow has its mouth pressed against his and it's literally, he can feel his soul leaving his body in these dreams. It's okay. And that sounds pretty scary. Yeah.

1:41:39 Now, I don't know much about sleep paralysis. Might have had sleep paralysis that night but who knows? Um, but I know that people who deal with it, kind of have, like, similar descriptions like a pressure on her chest and they can barely breathe, or they great, right? Yeah, stuff like that. No, the actual word shadow people were person or Shadow being whatever. First came up in a radio drama from 1953 titled, the creatures in the shadows. I wish you to have read with dramas wol. I mean, this is kind of a radio drama. This is a bit podcasts are kind of. I mean, there are podcast that people do as radio drama. Yeah.

1:42:22 You know, I do love those and you kind of tried to do that with your YouTube channel, as which we could totally do something like that as a third podcast. But before we go, Third, we need to make the first one financially soluble. Okay, we got a million ideas but we need that patreon money coming in. Okay. Oh my God, but you know what? What are these means? Like you said, some people say they're like inhuman or you think of them as human. Some people think of them as demons or right? Yeah, I've heard that or ghosts or, you know, just figments of our and sleep. Battled Minds. Yeah, but what if you don't be sleep, when he's here, that's message. Well, I'll tell you what, they aren't there. Actual Shadows.

1:43:13 There have been accounts of these shadow entities, interacting with objects in ghosts. Like have you ever heard of a shadow touching a person or a shadow moving an object? No, because when I hear things moving, that is a poltergeist and we'll talk. We'll L won't deal with that. No, let me tell you two little Tails, okay? So, or one account and 11 year old girl, she's potsie. This is that night, she's in bed, she spots a six-foot-tall outline of a person standing in her room facing her TV away from her. So, just imagine, yeah, that sounds exactly like Poltergeist fam. So in the TV turns on by itself, well like that but continue now after TV turn on this outline of the person shadowy person it turns around to face her and after you know a few seconds of them just staring each other down. It just disappears.

1:44:15 Yeah I've heard lots of that they just kind of like sobayed. Yeah almost like so you're going to turn my TV on? And then leaves out rude. Like, like, my dad is things just kicked in. I'm like, I had to like I don't like call myself down. I was like, you're wasting my freaking lecture. So you robbed. My field is gonna be this one out. Thanks a lot. You wasted our electricity, ghosts booze. Another account is when they were actually being touched by something, So guys sleeping on the side and his bed you know night time when suddenly he feels someone sit down right behind his back and then he starts to feel someone poking him in his back.

1:45:08 He opens his eyes and he looks up. And he sees three shadow people looking good. We don't like around his room, that's too many. Now he did not look around and he did not turn around to see if anybody was behind him to. Yeah, so he was too scared to move around. I feel you, so, Either way after he's done looking at them, they disappear as well. Hmm. Yeah, so now we can go and sleep paralysis. Well, it's okay. We'll talk. What will ask questions about when it happens when it doesn't happen? When you're sleep? Okay. I don't think I have the answers just there right now. Hmm. Now, there's a common theme with. Well I've seen in this book actually. I forgot to mention my source this book I bought is cold Darkness walks.

1:46:05 Okay hold on. There's a subtable to it. It's called Darkness walks. I think it's about my candles acting up. Okay, I get it anyway. I'll tell you I'll after I'm done, I'll tell you the whole table. But you know what? With the with the accounts I've read in this book, sleep paralysis has been like the common denominator, most of them, or like them being, like, it happening at night or them, or this happening, after a person wakes up, and not, I don't know if you know this, but like, The sleep paralysis it's, you know, traumatic for my understanding.

1:46:55 Yes. But it happens during REM sleep to write what it is is that you are in a deep sleep and your brains like, haha, I'm awake. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And during REM sleep, there's this chemical or these hormones that are released that are supposed to stop you, from thrashing around, and actually acting out your dreams while you're asleep. I wish they did. I wake up all scratched up. I didn't hurt myself. Me sometimes this happens and then the person wakes up during REM sleep and they can't move their body because they're still paralyzed. But there still are awake tactic. But yeah.

1:47:38 But they're dreaming. Yeah. And your body is fully conked out. Yeah. So that's that's basically what that is. Rosa, those who were unaware of this phenomenon of sleep paralysis is, it's basically like, what we just mentioned your sleep, you wake up, you're fully aware, but you can't move your body, you can't talk, you gonna move your, basically, your eyes and your brains, like, for a lot of people, they see a lot of really disturbing visual. Yes. That's hallucinations are very common, obviously, Has know. Why do we know why the hallucinations are? Is it just your brain being really, really active? Yeah, I think that's just like that. And just still being like that, that dream state. Maybe you're seeing your dream.

1:48:36 Yeah, in real life. Yeah basically. And like, yeah, who stations just don't go from visible visual. They can, you know it's also like the pressure, the pressure you feel that's a hallucination to because there's nothing like really pushing pushing Down on your chest when you're paralyzed, but that's host nation as well. So yeah. In the book. I've never had sleep paralysis. I know, I don't think I have either but then I didn't I when I'm thinking about that, tell that story I told you, I'm like, maybe I was maybe that was that and I just I don't know, I don't know my body just reacted to me during my cover of my head and then it did me just not being able to move or something.

1:49:28 Because right after. Right after that happened, I just went back to sleep. So, yeah, I didn't talk to anybody about that. Where was your brother dead below you? Yeah, so I had no bunk bed. I was on top. My brother's below me and my other brother was in the other bed, like a single. Yeah. So where were they just sleep? Yeah, yeah. Tara, I know it's horrible right there. I'm pretty sure the house is just haunted but stories but in this book there are different religious takes of shadow people or Shadow beings as well.

1:50:13 No these. These beings could very well be real or it could be your dreams or, you know, whatever. Okay. Um, but Overworld different religions. For instance, the Jinn is an entity from Middle Eastern folk, lord. They're believed to have been to be invisible creatures, but they wide array of bilities. They can like shape-shift, they can, you know, I'm not sure but the Gent like and Western Society, lot of the Jinn or Genies Cheney but they're not as positive as like, you know, Prince Ali like it that I mean, it's kind of a trickster situation.

1:51:02 It's that whole idea of like you know you make a wish but like are you going to get what you want? Exactly. But Jim are not actually what I'm trying to say, evil know, just like fairies their trickster. Yeah. Well these are the gym talking about that or not, evil or actually like in the book. It says they're Muslim Jim. Jim gent that are from Muslims. OK? If I miss. So those are supposed to be the good gin. Non-muslim Jin are ones that are the evil ones, the more. So what did the good ones?

1:51:46 Do they do the same things as the other one. Yeah. Basically that's the people yeah yeah. Wow. And apparently the good ones can actually pass as being human. Hmm and they can even marry and have kids, that's right. Yeah. So you can be living with a gin if I mean, I'm not entirely upset with that concept. Jeannie husband. This is a whole new, that's really genie. That's how the new Aladdin was at. The end Will Smith is with that. He hopes on what the hell, right? He did like that lady. I'm yeah.

1:52:27 Exactly. Now, the evil Jim. There are thought to be a pit Warriors for the devil. Okay. At least the money Jin appear as dark figures and stalk mortal souls and apparently a Jen is attached to everyone. I don't like that. So, Our own personal Jen or demon Jen, you know, for us among non-muslims. I don't get a good one because I'm not Muslim basically sorry. She's really I can't do that.

1:53:10 I don't like really any religions. So This is the funny part for me. It's like our own personal gym. So when we die, and if you're buried, your gin will sit on your grave in curse, you until the end of time. What I do to you, what I do, sir, that's what I was. I was so bad. I was like, what did I do to you? Why are you so mad at me? Yeah, like I could just imagine like my gym because I'm gonna be cremated. So Imagine my gym as I'm going into like Crematory, it just shaking his fists in Anger, they kick her.

1:53:53 Now what happens is, whatever mantle you get put on by either Cassandra or jaehun. They're going to be standing right next to the mantle like just shaking stink. I think I'm iron and the worst thing is one of like your kids further down the line, we'll have like a baby and the baby. I'll toddle through and be like, look at that big weirdo. Yes, because you know, it's always the babies that as can see things. Oh my God. Another religion. Almost a religion, but it's additional people know, all too well of Shadow beings.

1:54:35 He's apparently, there are two different kinds. There are some that are, you know, more aggressive to people. They're described as being larger than average and average person and their parents can be monstrous in nature. So maybe whatever. Whoever you who you were talking about earlier. Earlier. When they were talking about shaver people and they said that they looked like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Her name is Amy. And she does a TV show or she's a medium and she talks about like, the the ancient connection like ancient being? Yeah, actually, there's a great there was a great episode where, like, if people were like, yeah, I keep seeing this creature outside of our house.

1:55:15 It's like two stories high and like, Amy was like, leave this thing is older than this gland and it's attached. So, move somewhere else. I love those ones when she says stuff like that. I think it's great. Why you still there? She's like, you need to move, like you not. Well, there's nobody who can make this thick creature leave, because it is older than existence, you your house is it's not your house, it's not your house re-fry, can you imagine you look out your window on the second floor and there's a gigantic just face looking Shadows thing. No, looking back at you bra.

1:55:59 I'd go back to sleep. New house. Go find a new house in the morning. Like, you're not waking me up or like, can you help us? And she's like, knowing I know I can, this is out of my depth, oh my God. But yeah. Or as that one guy from taxa, it's above my head above. My pay grade. It's beyond me. It's beyond me now. Yes, it's beyond me now. Honey, oh my God. Yeah, so, you know these these can be monstrous in nature. And these beings are actually products of what was once described as I guess.

1:56:42 Bad Medicine, okay? Or bad Magic. Say it makes sense. Actually. So yeah medicine people who have perverted from you know, what they're actually supposed to use your powers forever. If they were originally using your powers for like, usually in for like helping people, healing and stuff like that, and they turn it to using their powers to attack people instead. And, you know, they they these creatures or he's beings start to appear. Hmm. Yeah. So these beings, they actually attack you physically and mentally so not to me best.

1:57:26 But yeah, definitely. On the other hand, they said, Shadow beings. Can be a good present in there. Actually. Tolerable is I guess like Spirits like ghostly? I think? Yeah and I have a, I have a friend whose house I stay at sometimes and I just be somebody like walking back and forth on the porch. Doesn't seem to be bothersome at all. He just seems to be restless. I think he but I mean, I don't know. It just seems to be a shape that every once in a while. You just see it moving around in here like all right, buddy, hope your ass. Life is cool. Like my goodness I'd know I wouldn't really look that bad though. Like what's wrong with that?

1:58:11 I mean I guess if you're not bothering me that. Okay. Yeah. Like what's the problem? If it doesn't hurt you or scare you it was true. It was no problem but fell asleep. When goodness. Okay. Anyways, and I do spirits, you know, these Shadows Spirits are actually there to like guide people are, you know, they might give you advice, you know, unspeaking advice but you know, They're the guide you in the right direction. Last, I'm going to finish this off with one of the I guess most shared experiences Shadow People. Okay? And that's the Hat man. Have you heard of that me? I think I've heard of people all seeing a spirit with a hat.

1:58:55 Okay, this is he's described as a tall shadowy figure. Male stocking the corners of people's rooms or, you know, wherever all while wearing a hat, it could be like a wide brim, you know, had or I think I've saw her a fedora as well. Oh, no. What do you call those people who just wear fedoras, what are you gonna? I forget the term. It wasn't very positive, it's not a positive one, so I'm not going to use it. So used to him, it was a thing. We made fun of people for a long time ago. Yeah. Those Fedora wearing Males who well actually, every Milady milady. M'lady.

2:00:11 So they actually might be spirits of people who weren't so good in their lives and passed on pretty horribly as well. So, maybe he's milady's. They were just Well, I mean, it's belief that like, most people who stay have a reason to fear the afterlife. Yeah. They're afraid of what comes after. Did I am? I am I going to be okay? No one knows, no nose. But there are also a regular citing during sleep paralysis. So, they might be a ghost. They might just be your sleep paralysis demon coming too.

2:00:56 Sit on your chest and you know what I mean? Hmm some ufologist think that these can you say that word again? Followed you. Oh we talking about aliens You always perverting my, my ghost stories with alien talk, I can't help me. There's aliens is everything. Okay? I just want to enjoy goes. Well, this is just a short little blurry. So you've nice and safe ghosts. This they might be an alien species like this. Did you kill lucky? Now I see why people keep comparing us to Shane and Ryan because I do not share your same feelings about helium's In these are awesome.

2:01:44 Okay. I don't believe that they're like little green people. Okay. No, neither why. I mean there didn't have to be, there might be some little green aliens. But, you know, they don't have to be looked like the big-headed ones that everybody thinks they look like, they're not going, we're not going to aliens right now. I'm just saying so you follows, you think that this hat, man, might be an alien species and he's here to observe and collect data from us, never know. Just standing in your is like the Men in Black. Okay? Just and your Ryan. It's a ghost with a hat. Sitting in the corner, taking note, these are Mama's video, we should have video because we're like a good like 10 seconds.

2:02:38 My reaction was silence. It was ridiculous silence. It was a funny, the face you made. You never know. It could be that. I'm pretty sure it's not that you know, 18, that's the annoyance of the argument. You never know. It could be. We want to think a lot of things are aliens, but we're really just ghost. I haven't, I wanted to like read one of these accounts from the this book. Okay. This is a short one is real short one. And oh the book is titled Darkness. Walks the Shadow People Among Us.

2:03:18 Hmm, I'll give it all to her later. I'll probably I'll put in the show notes but that's the title of the book. So this is a tail and this is its title stalked, by shadows. And it's like I said, real short. So, although Sarah Kelly has never seen the Hat Man. Her mother and grandmother weren't so lucky. And this is a, my mother, my mom, and my grandma have always told me about this spirit, that was following them wherever they moves. She said, in the beginning, they were both here. Heavy breathing. Beneath my mom's bed when she was little, then one night, the monster came.

2:04:04 Out from under the bed, a tall man, a long coat with no face and black holes for eyes, wearing some sort of hat. Luckily, I've never experienced that but it still gives me chills. Huh. I don't think I, oh my God. Could you imagine? No, don't imagine because I still have like that. Minor experience where like you lay your feet off the edge of the bed and you're like a better. Not the one other touch my feet? Nope, I was like, you know what? Assaulted me, we're someone was like if you have your hands laying off the bed, the demons going to like eat it.

2:04:48 Eat your hand and then in the next panel they have their, but hanging off the bed. I was going to say, if you get your hand off the bed team is gonna hold you here. Is that to say, please hold my hand. Oh my God. But yeah, that's what I wanted to do something a little out of been trying to like find more spooky things that cover because I've been doing because the Cryptids like Is it? I wanted to get back to the freaking black-eyed children, where people listening, and it is getting freaked out because of the little black eye children, coming to their doors. But yeah, that's in the black-eyed children, think? One work on me because I don't open the door for nobody. Except if I know you're coming over. That's right.

2:05:46 Don't show up unannounced. Please don't and I won't you can't show show up. Unannounced have keys. So they know they can get in because they have a key. Hmm. But stranger knocking on the door. Like listen. The other day, a lady from Comcast stop by and I like, I slid, the had the door slide lock on house like black lady. And I was like, okay now open the door and she was just like high and I was like six you own your own like box and I was like I do and she's like, oh okay. Because for people who don't own them, I guess they're switching to these other ones. And then people who move here in the future don't have to pay for, like, a box from Comcast. Comcast.

2:06:27 Yeah. But I was just like, why are you here? She was very nice, though. Have very cute. Hair. But I was just like, I am not expecting visitors. No, I have that. No, soliciting sign on my door, really? Yes. Yeah, because oh my god. Look story time for another day but After freaking, um, um, um, it's vacuum sellers or I forget go door to door vacuum people that want to be a thing when we were younger, that's still a thing and they don't leave when you say, no, thank you, I'm not interested. Well let me show you this. They try to keep talking yourself like make a mess on your carpet and then vacuum it up so that you can throw good. It works bra.

2:07:12 Yo, we he was do was there for like I want to say like, two hours trying to talk is into this stupid ass. As vacuum so, see, that's just like when you go on a trip and they try and like they, like, will give you all these things. If you come talk, listen to our timeshare. Yeah, you can't do that. That's not know. So after that, I got to know soliciting sign that says, no, soliciting don't really doorbell, don't make it weird. We're now open door for you. No thank you. But yeah. That's where I got like and it's funny because they came and they came to the door and then they were like, oh well, we're offering like a heat, the free house cleaning or something like that.

2:07:52 What will clean your wherever your most walked about part of your houses? And we're like, oh, also my want to clean the stairs today. Let's go. So, That's not how it turned out. So, anyway, thank you guys for listening to this week. Yeah, we had a good time. As usual as usual can always find us on all our social is what you're all linked on when Killers get caught.com. Yes, check it out. Please also links to our patreon other ways to support us. And thank you so much for listening. Yes. Bye-bye,